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Virginia Gubernatorial Race; Chicago Vaccine Mandate Showdown; John Deere Workers Strike; Moderna and Johnson & Johnson Booster Shots?; House Moves to Hold Steve Bannon in Contempt. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired October 14, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:40]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Top of a brand-new hour. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

And we begin with a big development in the investigation of the January 6 insurrection. The House committee will move to hold former Trump adviser Steve Bannon in criminal contempt for defying his subpoena and failing to testify today.

BLACKWELL: His attorney says his client is not participating because the former president has told him not to, citing executive privilege.

CNN congressional correspondent Ryan Nobles joins us now from the Capitol.

So, where do things stand now?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what stands right now, Victor, is that the select committee will meet on Tuesday. That's where they will have an official business meeting, where they will vote on the referral of criminal contempt to the entire House of Representatives.

Once the House votes on that, it will then be referred to the Department of Justice to execute. And this is basically the committee making good on a promise. They had warned these individuals that they had subpoena that they were going to do everything they had in their power to get them to comply with their subpoena request.

And Steve Bannon in particular has been the most defiant of this group of individuals that have been subpoenaed. He has said repeatedly that he was not going to comply. He sent the letter -- or sent the committee two different letters where he specifically said that he felt he didn't have to comply because the former President Donald Trump was going to defend executive privilege in that matter.

Well, the committee simply just didn't buy that argument. And in a statement today, the chairman, Bennie Thompson, saying -- quote -- "The select committee will not tolerate defiance of our subpoenas. So we must move forward with proceedings to refer Mr. Bannon for criminal contempt. I have notified this select committee that we will convene for a business meeting Tuesday evening to vote on adopting a contempt report."

Now, this move by the select committee is not something that is used often in the halls of Congress. In fact, the last time a criminal contempt referral was voted out of the House was way back in the Reagan administration. It's not a simple process. But it shows that the committee is taking this very seriously.

And they hope that it sends a signal to others who may be considering defying their subpoenas that they will take this step with them as well -- Victor and Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: What about that, Ryan? What about the other Trump allies? What's the status of their showing up?

NOBLES: Yes, right.

So, Alisyn, of course, Kash Patel, the former DOJ official, he was scheduled to appear today. And then you have Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino, the former White House chief of staff and deputy chief of staff. We're told that because Patel and Meadows in particular are engaging with the committee, that the committee has offered them up a short postponement of their depositions as they work through those negotiations.

As for Dan Scavino, he, of course -- they had a hard time serving him with a subpoena. They weren't able to do that until last Friday. So, as a result, they have postponed his deposition as well. But the committee's made it clear they are not going to tolerate these delays for very long.

So while they're giving these individuals some grace for now, they are ready to do the same with Patel, Meadows, and others and Scavino as they did with Bannon, if they feel that they're just trying to drag this process out without actually cooperating.

CAMEROTA: OK, Ryan Nobles, thank you for explaining the breaking news.

BLACKWELL: And joining us now, Stanley Brand. He is the former general counsel to the House of Representatives.

Stanley, thanks for being with us.

Ryan just told us how rare it is for a criminal contempt referral to be voted out and sent over to DOJ. What do we need to know as this now potentially heads over to DOJ about the process we're going to see and how rare it is that those charges might actually be filed?

STANLEY BRAND, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL TO HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: Well, this is the beginning of the process.

After the certification by the House, if the House votes to ratify what the committee's done, there is a referral to the U.S. attorney in the District of Columbia, who has to determine whether to bring it before a grand jury. If he does, and an indictment ensues, then there's a criminal trial.

And the criminal trial will involve the Congress having to prove its case as to every element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. And, of course, after jury verdicts, there are often appeals, as there have been in the hundreds of these cases that were filed in the 1950s and '60s, many of which were reversed because of insufficiencies in the case.

The last time this happened, I was actually counsel to the House in 1983, when we referred Rita Lavelle for contempt. It was brought to the grand jury. She was indicted and went to trial and she was acquitted.

[15:05:08]

So, the history of this is not all that easy for the Congress. And while they can, in a sense, huff and puff, until they get a conviction and a final judgment, it could be years.

CAMEROTA: Mr. Brand, I just want to put a finer point on that. You were the general counsel for the House the last time this was tried, and it was 1983. And it didn't work out that well.

And so, I mean, what is to think that something has changed now, and that it would be fast-tracked or that it would end in conviction?

BRAND: There isn't any.

I mean, the problem for the Congress is when you refer this to the judicial branch, all the due process requirements that go with a criminal prosecution go with it, and justice moves deliberately. And so it's not a slam dunk that this would be finished within a year.

And at that point, the Congress doesn't even necessarily get the testimony. It gets a conviction. It's a criminal statute. It's a punishment. It is not a civil enforcement mechanism, where the witness can purge the contempt through complying.

So it's a very awkward process.

BLACKWELL: You know, we're talking about all of the idiosyncrasies and specifics of the process. And that's important, but I think there are a lot of people who are wondering, big picture here, how is it possible that someone can be subpoenaed by Congress, simply say no, and by the process you're explaining, face little to or potentially no consequence for it?

Is there a fundamental flaw here that you can point out that needs to be fixed in this process?

BRAND: Well, there's no way to fix it, because the Constitution has due process requirements for criminal defendants in this kind of case, as it does for all of them. There's simply no simple way for the Congress to enforce its

subpoenas. And that's been true from the beginning of the republic to now. So, yes, there are impediments. There are impediments that are purposely put there by the Constitution that require the Congress to meet certain standards.

After they meet them, if they do, they can have -- they can successfully prosecute someone, but those intermediate steps have to be taken.

CAMEROTA: Obviously, Steve Bannon knows all of this. Obviously, that's why he's flouting the rules.

But we had just had a professor on last hour who was saying that there is a way to fast-track this, that we have learned things since 1983, when you went through this experience, and that, OK, maybe they never extract the information they want out of him, but a conviction is a conviction. Couldn't that happen within a year?

BRAND: It could.

But understand this is a misdemeanor statute, the lowest level of federal offense that can be imposed. And the courts have been reluctant to imprison witnesses, except in the case where the Congress has met its burden and prevailed by beyond the reasonable doubt.

So, yes, it is conceivable that at the end of the day there would be a conviction, and that would be upheld on appeal. But that still is going to take time. That can't -- that will not be fast-tracked in a way that preempts the normal criminal process.

BLACKWELL: You know, this committee set out to get the American people answers about who was involved in the orchestration of this insurrection.

Do you believe that they will get those answers through this process?

BRAND: Well, what I would say about that is, we have a Justice Department that has brought 600 criminal cases, that has subpoenaed and obtained millions of documents and millions of feet of video.

If they don't know by now what happened and who the perpetrators were, I'm not certain that a congressional committee is likely to find out. If there are incriminating records within the files of the Justice Department about things that went on with respect to the people the committee is seeking, the Justice Department already has it.

CAMEROTA: I suppose.

But, I mean, what they're really looking for right now, I think, is what for our President Trump's role was in it in the White House while it was going on, what he knew beforehand, what he was doing during it. Don't they need his inner circle to show up to explain that?

BRAND: If there are e-mails and communications between his inner circle and people of the 600 who were involved in the insurrection, they already have that.

CAMEROTA: Stanley Brand, thank you very much. We really appreciate you sharing your experience with us.

BRAND: Sure thing.

BLACKWELL: Thanks, Stanley.

CAMEROTA: OK, so, right now, we're seeing the biggest strike in America's private sector in two years. Some 10,000 workers are walking out on the farm and construction equipment maker John Deere after the United Auto Workers union and the company could not agree on a deal.

[15:10:08]

BLACKWELL: Well, the strike has closed down in more than a dozen John Deere factories and distribution centers.

CNN's Alison Kosik is covering this for.

So what are the sticking points here? Why did talks break down?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Alisyn and Victor.

So there had been a deal on the table for about two weeks between the United Auto Workers and John Deere. But they -- but the union went ahead and voted on it and decided to reject that contract proposal, because they felt like it wasn't good enough.

So now they're calling for higher wages. And so these negotiations are actually happening at a time when John Deere is actually doing very well financially. Its stock is up 22 percent so far this year, and if you look at revenues, for the first three quarters of John Deere's fiscal year, they rose to more than $32 billion.

So I think what you're seeing is the current financial success playing into this, that that may have led to some union members saying, look, I think we deserve a better deal than the one that was on the table. Now, this is not the only strike that is happening across the country. We are also seeing workers striking from Kellogg; 1, 400 workers at Kellogg, yes, the breakfast cereal company, walked off the job on October 5.

So that strike is entering its second week. And there are two other strikes that are looming on the horizon, one, Kaiser Permanente. That's one of the biggest health providers in the country; 38,000 workers could walk off the job if an agreement is not reached. We're talking about nurses, pharmacists, physical therapists.

And then, in Hollywood, Hollywood, California, yes, that Hollywood, 60,000 workers could walk off the job, 60,000 members of a film and TV production union. Those are mostly people behind the seeds. They will literally walk off the job this coming up Monday if they don't come to an agreement with Hollywood producers.

So we have got a lot of action in the labor force happening. I think you're seeing workers feel like they have got a better voice now to speak up for what they want. They're trying to make it better for themselves. And they feel like they have leveraged because they know that employers are finding it very hard to fill open positions.

There are at least 10 million unfilled positions in this country.

BLACKWELL: Wow.

Alison Kosik, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Alison, thank you.

KOSIK: You got it.

BLACKWELL: So, a standoff is coming to a head right now in Chicago, as the head of the police union urges officers to defy the mayor's vaccine order.

CAMEROTA: Plus, they were a major reason Democrats regained power in 2020, but our next guest warns that women are tuning out of politics more and more. The danger that could spell for the Democrats.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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BLACKWELL: We have got some breaking news on boosters.

CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is with us now.

So what have you learned?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Victor, what we know is that this FDA advisory committee has said yes to boosters for Moderna.

Now, it's not for everyone. You have to be six months out from your second Moderna booster. You have to be over 65 or have certain underlying medical conditions or live or work in certain situations that put you at a high risk from getting sick with COVID.

But just as they did for Pfizer about a month ago, they have now done it for Moderna. And so that rollout will begin. Interestingly, the Moderna booster -- unlike the Pfizer booster, the Moderna booster will be half the dose of the original shot. Moderna says they found that that worked well, and it allows them to increase their supply to other parts of the world -- Victor.

CAMEROTA: Elizabeth, what happens next?

COHEN: Right.

So what happens next is that the FDA will most likely put their stamp of approval on this. And then, on Wednesday of next week, the CDC puts the final stamp of approval on it. Now, you will remember the Pfizer one, it got a little bit messy. There were changes. There was confusion. I don't think that's going to happen this time. I think they learned from what happened a month ago. I think there's an excellent chance that this will all sort of sail through and that very soon, as soon as the middle of next week, folks who are six months out of that Moderna second shot, and fit into one of these categories, will be able to go out and get a booster.

What Moderna found in their studies was that antibodies did wane over time, not quite as much as with Pfizer and not so, so dramatically, but enough so that this group of advisers felt that it was worth getting a third shot.

CAMEROTA: And then we also know that tomorrow they will be talking about J&J. So we will look for news on that tomorrow.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you very much for the breaking news.

COHEN: Right. Thanks.

CAMEROTA: OK, now to a vaccine showdown in Chicago between the police union and the mayor.

BLACKWELL: At issue is the mandate for all city employees to submit their vaccination status by tomorrow or risk not getting paid.

But the union is digging in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN CATANZARA, PRESIDENT, CHICAGO FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: I have made my status very clear as far as the vaccine, but I do not believe the city has the authority to mandate that to anybody, let alone that information about your medical history.

It's the city's clear attempt to force officers to Chicken Little the sky is falling into compliance. Do not fall for it. Hold the line.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Now, the union's president warned the standoff may lead to more than half of the police force walking off the job.

CNN's Omar Jimenez is following this story.

Omar, I should say that both sides are digging in. We're expecting to hear from Mayor Lightfoot on this pretty soon, right?

[15:20:04]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor and Alisyn.

We should be hearing from the mayor any moment at this point to see if she has any response to these comments. But, as you mentioned, at the center of this all is the requirement by the city of Chicago for all city employees to disclose their vaccination status by tomorrow. And those who don't, including police officers, get put on no pay status.

And as you just heard a little bit of it a moment ago, the head of the Chicago Fraternal Order of Police, the police union here, says that officers shouldn't go along with that requirement and says that there are a large number of officers who are with him on this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CATANZARA: If we suspect the numbers are true, and we get a large number of our members to stand firm on their beliefs that this is an overreach, and they're not going to supply the information in the portal or submit to testing, then it's safe to say the city of Chicago will have a police force at 50 percent or less for this weekend coming up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now for the record, there's no current way to corroborate those numbers right now.

We have reached out to Catanzara for additional comment. We have not heard back. But he also said as part of that video that they plan to file a temporary restraining order against the city. Again, this policy would go into effect starting tomorrow.

A source for the city, though, did tell me that they plan to release full numbers within the next few days, so we can compare kind of what he's saying. But, again, that deadline to disclose is by midnight tonight and then, tomorrow, we will have to see what happens.

BLACKWELL: Yes, you point out, Omar, that 50 percent of the force walking out maybe just bluster to try to intimidate the mayor.

But there were, what, 40 shootings last weekend in Chicago, hundreds of vacancies on the force. What is the mayor saying about the ability to assure public safety if there are large numbers of officers who are off the streets?

JIMENEZ: Well, that's going to be the major question here. And that's what we're waiting to find out, because, as you mentioned, we are in a year where we have seen 11 percent more shootings than last year and close to 70 percent more shootings than two years ago.

And, obviously, the bulk of those tend to happen on the weekend. So heading into this one, it, of course, is a major concern. And to paraphrase what two aldermen here in Chicago said who say they represent over 2, 200 Chicago police officers in their districts, they recognize the dynamic at play, the fact that every Chicago police officer who died in the line of duty last year was because of COVID- 19.

But you put that also up against the dynamics of violence that we are seeing, and we're in a very difficult situation and we're just going to have to see what happens.

BLACKWELL: Omar Jimenez for us there, thank you.

CAMEROTA: So, former President Donald Trump called into a Virginia political rally last night, but the Republican candidate was not even there.

The tricky Trump tightrope that that candidate is walking next.

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[15:27:42]

BLACKWELL: The shadow of former President Trump is stretching over the Virginia governor's race. This is seen as a national barometer ahead of the 2022 midterms.

And Trump called into a right-wing rally yesterday to fire up the Virginia base for GOP candidate Glenn Youngkin. But Youngkin was not there. His campaign is trying to walk this narrow line, focus on the moderates and independent voters, without alienating the Trump base.

CAMEROTA: Now his Democratic rival, former Governor Terry McAuliffe, says that yesterday's rally goers pledged allegiance to a flag that was reportedly flown at the Trump rally on January 6 just before the Capitol riot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FMR. GOV. TERRY MCAULIFFE (D-VA): To go in front of the cameras today and say it was not appropriate to pledge allegiance to a flag to the symbol of democracy and pledge to a flag that tried to destroy the democracy here in this great country.

So I think that's the most important thing can be done. Anything less than that is unacceptable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, so let's discuss this is Larry Sabato. He's the director of the Center of Politics for the University of Virginia.

Larry, great to see you.

So, can Glenn Youngkin do this? Can he avoid rallies that Donald Trump calls into, but still keep the energized Trump voters on his side?

LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA CENTER FOR POLITICS: Well, he can. And he's been doing it fairly consistently throughout the campaign, and the Republicans are letting him get away with it because, in this state, at least, they're so desperate.

They have lost every single election for 10 years. And you have to work hard to lose every election. Virginia has elections every single year. So that's the reason. They're desperate to win and they're not going to cause much trouble.

Some are grumbling about the way he has tiptoed through the tulips in both directions on Trump, and you can't really do that for very long. But notice Trump endorsed him last night, I think, for the fifth time.

Well, that helps him with some Republicans, but it has given Terry McAuliffe a burst of energy and something to run with, with a little more than two weeks remaining in the campaign.

BLACKWELL: So, Larry, you point out Republicans are on this losing streak.

President Biden won there less than a year ago by 10 points. Why is this race so close?

SABATO: The tradition, not just in Virginia, but in a lot of other states, is, in a midterm election, even if it's the year before the national midterm.