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Doctors Will Keep Former President Clinton In A California Hospital For A Fifth Night; Capitol Police Officer Charged In Connection With January 6th; How Trump's Big Lie Is Decaying American Democracy; Gunman Kills Deputy, Injures Two Others; Texas Abortion Ban Sets Up New Hurdle For Vulnerable Teens; Unwanted Pregnancies Land Teens In Texas Court; Nike Exec, NBA Insider, Jordan Confidant Reveals 1965 Killing. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired October 16, 2021 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:50]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: One deputy is dead and two others wounded after being ambushed by a gunman in Texas.

CONSTABLE MARK HERMAN, HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS: A second suspect came out of nowhere with a rifle and began to basically shoot our deputies.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: President Biden honors fallen officers from across the country from the steps of the Capitol.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Being a cop today is one hell of a lot harder than it's ever been.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: J&J is a very good vaccine. I also believe it's probably a two-shot vaccine, probably one is not enough. It's really urgent that people go and get that second shot pretty quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Doctors will keep former President Bill Clinton in a California hospital for a fifth night as he recovers from a urinary tract infection.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sepsis, when you're diagnosed with it, is as serious as it gets.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Good evening, I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday.

Good news tonight for Bill Clinton. A spokesman says treatment for a urinary tract infection that spread to his bloodstream is going well enough that the former president should be released tomorrow.

CNN's Natasha Chen has the latest on that. So what do we know, Natasha? NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, our colleague

Jamie Gangel reports that a source familiar with the situation that the president has taken phone calls from several well-wishers today including Vice President Kamala Harris, including former president George W. Bush, and Clinton's own former Vice President Al Gore. The hospital staff had been telling us that he was well enough that he was walking around the hospital. In fact, this source tells Jamie that -- the hospital staff had to tell him to slow down.

So the former president seems to be in good spirits, that he has been able to chat with family and friends, watch college football. That's according to a statement put out by his spokesperson on Twitter in just the last couple of hours.

I can read you part of the statement where he says that tomorrow is the expected discharge date. He will remain overnight at UC Irvine Medical Center to continue to receive IV antibiotics before an expected discharge tomorrow.

He talks about having -- being deeply grateful for the excellent care he continues to receive and thankful to the many well-wishers who have sent kind words to him and his family. He's looking forward to getting home very soon. And so you can see this has probably been a trying process, several -- this will be the fifth night he's stayed here at this hospital. And it's really because of that IV antibiotics treatment.

As we know it can take three to five days. And so if he checked in on Tuesday, then yes, tomorrow would be around the fifth-day mark. And it's very important that he finishes that treatment before he gets on a plane to go home. But it sounds like he's been able to have great conversations with people by phone and with his wife, Secretary Clinton, and daughter Chelsea Clinton, who walked in here this morning at about 8:00 a.m. Pacific Time.

They've spent pretty much the whole day in there. They have not come back out in this direction. So hopefully he's able to fully recover and return home soon, Pamela.

BROWN: Natasha Chen, thanks for bringing us the latest there.

Turning now to even more chilling evidence of the attack on our freedom in the United States. These are the newly released videos of the January 6th insurrection. Even now, nine months after the attempted coup at the Capitol, we're seeing fresh views like this from some of the earliest moments of the riot as the building was breached. A day President Biden recalled this afternoon as he honored all fallen police officers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Nine months ago, your brothers and sisters thwarted an unconstitutional and fundamentally un-American attack on our nation's values and our votes. Because of you, democracy survived, but only because of the women and men of the U.S. Capitol police force, Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department, other law enforcement agencies who once again literally put their bodies on the line to protect our democracy.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

[19:05:07]

BROWN: But even with that message of support for the heroes who braved the mob, one officer is under indictment.

CNN's Jessica Schneider is here in Washington.

Jessica, this is the first Capitol officer charged with helping a rioter. What do we know?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It is, Pamela. You know, this is a 25-year veteran of the Capitol police force. It's Officer Michael Angelo Riley. He's now charged with two counts of obstruction. One count for allegedly instructing a rioter to remove Facebook posts that showed that rioter inside the Capitol on January 6th. The second count for then deleting his own interactions with that rioter.

So there are several direct messages that were detailed in this indictment, unsealed yesterday. And it includes this one from January 7th, one day after the insurrection, where Officer Riley allegedly wrote this, "Hi, I'm a Capitol police officer who agrees with your political stance. Take down the part about being in the building. They are currently investigating, and everyone who was in the building is going to be charged. Just looking out."

Well, that rioter was eventually arrested January 19th after many back-and-forths with Officer Riley. And in fact the next day on January 28th the rioter told Officer Riley that he had told the FBI that he was speaking to a Capitol police officer, and according to this indictment, that prompted Officer Riley the next day to delete all of the Facebook direct messages between the two, and that is what has prompted now this second obstruction charge.

So, Pamela, these are serious charges. Each obstruction count, it carries a maximum 20-year prison sentence. Officer Riley will be in federal court for his arraignment on Tuesday -- Pam.

BROWN: And Jessica, the president is also making somewhat controversial comments about anyone who defies the January 6th committee.

SCHNEIDER: Yes, President Biden weighing in here on a matter that is supposed to be within the sole discretion of the DOJ. So here's what he told our Kaitlan Collins last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: What's your message to people who defy congressional subpoenas on the January 6th committee?

BIDEN: I hope that the committee goes after them and holds them accountable criminally. COLLINS: Should they be prosecuted by the Justice Department?

BIDEN: I do, yes.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: Well, notably that comment was quickly clarified by the White House press secretary, Jen Psaki. It did set up some criticism that President Biden was really interfering with DOJ decision-making. But, Pam, Jen Psaki made clear in a tweet that all of this would be at the sole discretion of the DOJ saying it's the independent role of the Department of Justice to make any decisions about prosecutions.

So we will see what happens when the House moves forward on what will be likely a criminal contempt referral for Steve Bannon -- Pam.

BROWN: Jessica, thank you so much.

And on that note of what Jessica just said, on Tuesday the January 6th House Select Committee will take the next step in holding Trump ally Steve Bannon in criminal contempt for failing to comply with its subpoena. Panel members say they are building a strong case right now showing how close the U.S. came to seeing democracy collapse.

Here's what Chairman Bennie Thompson told our Wolf Blitzer earlier in the week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): We are, on a daily basis, getting information that we think will absolutely support our effort to say who was responsible, what participants created January 6th, and basically we will tie all of the strings together so that once our report is done, anyone will be able to understand exactly how close we came to losing our democracy on January 6th.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And just in the past couple of weeks, guest after guest on this show who have either served in high levels of the U.S. government in both Democratic and Republican administrations, or study democracy for a living have come on this show and they have sounded the alarm, raising a giant red flag that the United States is not immune from seeing its democracy collapse.

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FIONA HILL, FORMER TOP RUSSIA ADVISER DURING TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: So I think the most disturbing thing for anybody watching American politics for the last several years has been the fact that it's our own president, our own former president, Donald Trump, who has been talking down U.S. democracy.

I think this is the very first time certainly in living memory that this fabric of our democracy has been so stress tested by someone that millions of people had elected. GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL (RET), U.S. ARMY: We assume that democracy in

America which was founded by the founding fathers is just a permanent thing, but it's breakable. If we don't have rules and if we don't have consequences for people who go outside those rules, if we don't have a system that the vast majority of Americans believe is honest and committed to the well-being, then a new political system will arise.

[19:10:05]

I don't think we'll like it. And so the key about this is it's our fault.

PROF. RICHARD HASEN, UC IRVINE SCHOOL OF LAW: If elected officials and election officials believe the big lie and they're willing to do something to counter what they see as the big lie such as by changing the rules or by ignoring the rules, then we're in really serious trouble in this country.

IAN BASSIN, FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PROTECT DEMOCRACY: If you look around the world, democracy is actually in the midst of a grave recession. And you see in countries like Hungary and Poland and Venezuela, they're no longer really democratic, although they still purportedly hold elections. And now three of the four largest democracies in the world, India, Brazil, and the United States, have been governed by autocrats in recent years.

And what is the thing that is going to stop us from following down that path is if we recognize that we are not immune to this global trend. It's only by thinking that it can't happen here that it could.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: To say it's weird looking at myself there. But clearly you could see the concern on my face listening to all of this. And joining me now is Timothy Snyder. He is the author of "On Tyranny: 20 Lessons from the 20th Century." It recently was released in a graphic edition. He is also a professor at Yale.

Thanks for joining us. Why has the big lie taken such a stronghold on millions of Americans who are being used essentially for fundraising purposes?

TIMOTHY SNYDER, AUTHOR, "ON TYRANNY": The big lie works because the big lie makes sense of life. Once you take a leap of faith like that, there's a lot of thinking you don't have to do. You don't have to pay attention to the facts around you. You don't have to pay attention to the people who disagree with you. The big lie works, and I knew it was going to work because it provides this big coherent story into which you can fit everything.

It's very comfortable. We know this from history. This is why democracy is hard, because stories like this are attractive.

BROWN: Why has former president Trump been such a good messenger with the big lie? SNYDER: This is his talent. I mean, we have to give credit where

credit is due. The man is an excellent con man. That's been his job description from day one. At the moment he is someone who needs a legal and financial protection. Being president of the United States a second time is a very good way to get that, and as he understands, this most likely route to being president of the United States is not through winning an election, it's through discrediting elections, making a mess, and somehow finding his way to the top at the end of it.

BROWN: The Select Committee on January 6th is moving forward with criminal contempt against Steve Bannon. Do you think that that will have an unintended consequence of riling up the election deniers even more?

SNYDER: I doubt it. I mean, I think it's probably more important just to keep sending the message that nobody is above the law. The idea that the president's chums are above the law or the former president's chums or somebody who worked for the president four years ago and, you know, then reportedly urged a coup d'etat. The idea that those people are above the law, that smacks of authoritarianism, not of democracy.

So I think Mr. Bannon should be treated like as any other citizen, any other citizen would be expected to testify especially in a matter of grave national importance. But more so since he and Mr. Trump keeps saying that everything that happened was fine and dandy. If that's the case, let them come and talk about it.

BROWN: Is there any way back from this given the pervasiveness of misinformation and the willingness we have seen from politicians to perpetuate lies for their own benefit? Or is this just what we're going to see in every election moving forward where if, you know, the candidate, the losing candidate, you know, if the candidate, if the person once loses the election that they're just going to be crying the election was stolen?

SNYDER: Well, we've got about a year until the next elections and about, you know, three until the next presidential elections. And we have to figure out what the scenario is.

The scenario is that states are going to -- states who are doing this kind of big lie are going to create a situation where they say it's unclear who won. And then they're going to delay and they're going to obfuscate. And this could lead to a situation in 2024 where the guy who loses the presidential election, the person who loses the presidential election tries to install himself as president all the same.

If we recognize that that scenario is real and that historically speaking it's normal, we have time to stop it. But if we keep -- if we blunder along thinking there's American exceptionalism or democracy is just the air we breathe, then we're going to be in real trouble.

BROWN: There is this new CNN-SSRS poll released last month. And more than half of those asked say they are just a little or not confident at all that elections in America today reflect the will of the people. If you would, explain to us why confidence in the election system is central to democracy and why that poll is so concerning in that context.

SNYDER: Well, elections are what make democracy. And we ought to be able to take for granted that elections represent us. If you're African-American or if you're another person of color, you might have reasons to doubt that from the get-go. It's very important I think that we change this whole discussion and start talking about a right to vote, urged on by the Supreme Court.

[19:15:04]

It's very important I think that we change this whole discussion and start talking about a right to vote, urged on by the Supreme Court. We're treating voting as being something that involves the sacred right of states to make it difficult for us to vote. What we should be thinking about is a right to vote, a national holiday on voting day, make it easy for everyone.

That's the mindset that we have to have. And people have to stop thinking that this is the government's job. People have to think, look, I'm an American, I have the right to vote, whether I'm Republican or Democrat, whoever it might be, I have the right to vote, and this is a thing I'm going to demand.

BROWN: Timothy Snyder, really alarming. Thank you so much. We will continue to cover this on our show.

SNYDER: My pleasure.

BROWN: And coming up, an astonishing admission. One of Nike's top executives, Larry Miller, tells "Sports Illustrated" he shot and killed a man when he was a teenager. The reporter who broke that story joins me live.

Also ahead tonight, one deputy is dead and two others wounded after an ambush in Texas. We're getting some more details this hour on the victims and the search for the suspect. That's ongoing tonight.

And a state trooper in Louisiana says he's being fired after accusing colleagues of murder. You'll hear his story in a moment.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:20:25]

BROWN: In Houston a heartbreaking sight. Law enforcement agencies from across the country escorted the body of a deputy killed this morning in an ambush that left two others wounded.

CNN's Jean Casarez has the details.

CASAREZ: Pam, we are told that this happened about 2:12 this morning at a Houston sports bar in the parking lot. Deputies were called to that parking lot because of something that was going on. They believed it was a robbery. They thought they had the person that was responsible. They were in the midst of arresting the person.

The person was on the ground. They were right there, and all of a sudden we are told that someone came from around the car with an AR-15 assault rifle and began shooting at the deputies. One was shot in the back. The other shot, who has succumbed to the injuries, and then another deputy came out because of hearing what was happening and was shot in the leg with multiple leg fractures.

We do know the identities of these officers. We want to show you all of them. First of all, Kareem Atkins. He was 30 years old. He just got back from paternity leave. He leaves a wife and a 2-month-old baby. Darrell Garrett, he is 28 years old. He was shot in the back. He has been in surgery for much of today. He's now in the intensive care unit. And finally, Juqaim Barthen. 26 years old. He has been a member of the force since 2019.

Now these officers, they work together. They knew each other. They were buddies, we are told. And I want you to listen how the constable, Mark Herman, talks about what one was told just before he was wheeled into surgery this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HERMAN: He found out laying bleeding out on a gurney that his buddy he had just been with was deceased. But I can tell you all three of them, they worked the same area. They're good friends. They -- it's just a complete tragedy is what it is.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: The criminal investigation continues. The deputy that did succumb to his injuries, his body is at the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office -- Pam.

BROWN: Jean Casarez, thank you so much.

And now to Louisiana and the death of a black man in police custody. There is new fallout tonight from the death of Ronald Green in 2019. The body cam video is hard to watch. But it shows state troopers dragging him out of his car during -- after this chase. And it goes on to show him being tased, kicked, and punched, as he begged and apologized.

Police only told his family he died in a crash, and now a black state trooper, Carl Cavalier, tells CNN he is being fired after accusing his colleagues of murder during an interview with our affiliate WBRZ in June.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL CAVALIER, LOUISIANA STATE TROOPER: We still have murderers in my eyes on the job. We still have guys who's either been slapped on the wrist for their roles in this Ronald Green incident, or just went unpunished. They're still patrolling the streets. (END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Two troopers involved in the incident were reprimanded for their actions that night including for not following body cam procedures. A third trooper was going to be fired, but he died in a car crash.

We should note CNN has reached out to state police for comment about Cavalier's claims.

Well, she describes standing before a judge as a teen asking permission for an abortion and feeling like her life was in one man's hands. Why my next guest wants to ensure Texas teens don't need to beg for their reproductive rights.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:28:20]

BROWN: In Texas the nation's most restrictive abortion law may be headed to the U.S. Supreme Court. It bans abortions after six weeks into a pregnancy, often before women even know they're pregnant. Critics say it's tantamount to an abortion ban. The Justice Department says it will ask the Supreme Court to block the law.

Our next guest was 17 years old when an unwanted pregnancy landed her in a Texas courtroom before a judge. That is because she did not have the required parental consent for a minor to get an abortion. So as if on trial, she had to plead her case.

Veronica Grenada joins me now. And Veronica, thank you so much for coming on and share that this was one of the most difficult decisions of your life. Tell us about it. Do you have any regrets about having an abortion?

VERONIKA GRANADO, HAD ABORTION IN TEXAS WHEN SHE WAS A TEENAGER: I actually have no regrets. And actually that's a great question because a lot of people assume that, you know, abortion is something to regret or something that is, you know, extremely traumatic. The only I would say traumatic part in my case was having to go through this extremely difficult process, you know, going in front of a judge in a setting that most criminals go through.

So I felt like I was a criminal. But other than that, my abortion saved my life. It allowed me to go to college and become an engineer and pursue the dreams that I had before I got pregnant and was able to continue that after the pregnancy.

BROWN: And if you hadn't gotten it, what do you think your life would have been like then?

GRANADO: It would have definitely been a lot harder. I'm not sure if college would still be in the question for me because as a teen, as a -- coming from a working-class family, it was difficult to get resources to be able to support me going to college, as well as supporting myself. [19:30:08]

And so, I am not sure if that would have been the question, but I know that I would have needed to get a job and kind of push college aside for a long while before that happened.

BROWN: The process that landed you in court can take many weeks, and with a six-week limit under current Texas law, you would lose that option of a legal abortion. What are your thoughts on that?

GRANADO: Yes, that's a great question because for me, it's just an extremely terrifying situation because in my case, I found out that I was pregnant about six weeks, and the judicial bypass process took me two weeks.

So even though I found out as early as I possibly could, the process forced me to take an additional two weeks to be able to actually get that procedure done. And so, for a lot of people, six weeks is a lot earlier than they are able to find out they are pregnant.

And so for me, I was fortunate enough to find it that early on. But in the age of SB-8 and what's going on now, it's going to make it impossible to be able to obtain an abortion within six weeks.

BROWN: What was going through your mind as you stood in front of the judge who would make the most important decision of your life?

GRANADO: Yes, that's a great question. It's extremely relevant because the point of a judicial bypass process is just to intimidate teens in situations like I was and to make them feel like they're doing something wrong because they are in this criminal setting that they probably haven't been through before. And in my situation, I wasn't in that situation before.

So, it was just terrifying because I knew that if I said any little thing wrong, if I didn't sound mature enough or if I didn't give the correct response, the judge who is a male would be able to decide my fate for me and decide that I wouldn't be able to go to college and that I would have to put a hold on my life and my dreams to, you know, take care of this child that I wasn't financially able to support.

BROWN: What were the circumstances as to why you couldn't tell your parents that you were pregnant?

GRANADO: So that's a great question because in a lot of situations, in teens, it just varies. For some people, they just don't have parents to involve and some people they have, you know, parents upstate. For me it was like, I just wasn't on that level of like comfortably talking with my -- like my parents and stuff. And so I wasn't really as involved or as connected with them.

So for my mom, she was really strict, and I knew that if I told her that I was pregnant, I knew that she would be really upset and that I could possibly you know, risk being kicked out. And so, I was just extremely fearful of that. And for my dad, he lives in a different state and is also extremely

religious. So, I just didn't want to even bring it up. And I knew that since he was in a different state that would have been a lot complicated process. So that's why I decided to go through with it on my own.

BROWN: Well, Veronika, thanks for coming on. This is such a sensitive issue, and we appreciate you sharing your personal story.

GRANADO: Thank you. Thank you very for having me.

BROWN: A stunning secret revealed after five decades. One not even his boss, Michael Jordan, knew. Why come forward now? I'll ask the man who interviewed Larry Miller about what he learned next.

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[19:38:07]

BROWN: Tonight, a remarkable story of reinvention and a search for redemption. Even if you're not a basketball fan, even if you don't know the name, Larry Miller, he is a man of accomplishments and respected across the NBA.

For close to a decade, the Nike executive has led the Jordan brand as in Michael Jordan. Before that, he spent five years as President of the Portland Trailblazers. He counts MJ as his close friend and his inner circle includes league commissioners past and present, and he knows about every big name in the league.

But Larry Miller had a secret, one even Jordan didn't know until recently.

As a teen in West Philadelphia in 1965, he shot and killed another teen. He did prison time, but he spent more than half a century guarding the secret from just about everyone, until now. Miller's autobiography will come out in January, but he gave his revealing first interview to "Sports Illustrated" senior writer. Howard Beck talked to Miller for this cover story, and he joins me tonight.

Welcome. So, did you have any idea when you did this interview with Miller that he would reveal this bombshell?

HOWARD BECK, SENIOR WRITER, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": Yes, actually, I did, Pamela. He reached out through intermediaries some months ago saying that Larry Miller has a story to tell, and it's a sensitive one, and obviously a very provocative one, to say the least. And he is going to be revealing it in a book early in 2022. But he wants to reveal the secret at the core of the book sooner than that on his own terms before, as we often see with books, galleys leak and suddenly the narrative is out of your control.

So when they reached out, I knew what I was going to Portland to talk to Larry Miller about. I knew the vague outline of it, at least. Not all of the details at a granular level, but I knew what we were going to talk about. [19:40:06]

BROWN: So walk us through, quickly if you would, how he went from a 16-year-old killing someone to winding up being this powerful and trusted figure.

BECK: So Larry Miller fell in with a gang when he was in his early teens and this event that we're talking about where he shot and killed an 18-year-old was when Larry Miller was 16. He was convicted. He did go to prison.

He was in prison for the most part until he was 30 years old. When he emerged from prison, he left there with a Degree in Accounting from Temple as part of an educational program that was available at that time.

So, when he got out, he was free to pursue the rest of his life and his career as anybody else would. He had paid his debt, and you know, although there's an early event which you can read about in the story in his book where he revealed what he had done to a prospective employer early on and did not get the job as a result.

He decided never to talk about it again. It never came up again. No background checks ever revealed it.

He had dinner with the Clintons when Bill Clinton was in the White House and that background check somehow did not turn this up or at least did not alarm anybody to the extent that he was turned away. He attended that dinner.

So he pursued his career, rose up through the ranks at Nike, and here we are.

BROWN: Here we are. Why now? Obviously, he spoke to you. He wanted to get this out before his book release. But why did he choose to come out about this now? Was it just the guilt that was eating away at him? What was it?

BECK: I think there's two major drivers here. One is that, yes, this has haunted him for his entire life. Migraines, nightmares, anxiety -- all kinds of things that have plagued him that all started to subside about six years ago when he and his oldest daughter started to write there book together.

But the other one and the important factor here, the important motivating factor which Larry addressed with me and will in the book as well, is that he considers himself an example. That no matter what kind of mistake, however grave it might have been at a stage of your life, especially early in life, that you can still have a productive life, and that you can be a productive member of society.

So for folks who are incarcerated for whatever the reason, he wants to show there is life after this. And for those of us on the outside, especially people who are in positions to hire folks, that you recognize that, listen, yes, this person made a grave mistake in their life at some point. You should still consider the totality of the person and what they're capable of, and that's the lesson that Larry Miller wants out there.

It is his own lesson that people can follow and that the rest of us should heed to remind us that redemption is possible.

BROWN: You write that he is planning to reach out to the victim's family. Is he prepared for the possibility they may not be so forgiving?

BECK: We did not go too deep into that subject. I don't know. It's obviously a very difficult aspect of this for Larry Miller, and you know, how he pursues that, under what terms -- listen, I don't even know who is still around when this -- the person he shot and killed was 18 at the time, that's 56 years ago. Whether that person's parents or their other family members are still around or where they might be, I'm not even sure.

BROWN: All right. Howard beck, thank you for coming on to talk about this story that you broke about Larry Miller. We appreciate it.

And coming up tonight, Dave Chappelle in a comedy special many feel crosses a dangerous line. Netflix stands by it. What message does that send to the transgender community? Comedian Flame Monroe joins us next with perspective.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:48:32]

BROWN: The Netflix-Dave Chappelle mess gets messier it seems. Late Friday, a Netflix employee was fired for allegedly leaking confidential information on Chappelle's latest comedy special "The Closer," including a claim that it cost the company more than $24 million to make. Reportedly, the same person was also organizing a trans-employee walkout at Netflix.

There is intense anger over Chappelle echoing some of the same anti- LGBTQ themes he has hit on before, including some of his cringiest jabs yet at the trans-community. Here's one of his tamer takes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE CHAPPELLE, COMEDIAN: Gender is a fact. You have to look at it from a woman's perspective. Look at it like this -- Caitlyn Jenner whom I've met, wonderful person -- Caitlyn Jenner was voted Woman of the Year her first year as a woman. Ain't that something? Beat every [bleep] Detroit, she's better than all of you.

[CHEERING AND APPLAUSE]

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, despite loud calls for "The Closer" to be taken down, Netflix insists that it won't.

And joining me to further discuss this is Flame Monroe, a comedian who is also transgender. Flame, nice to see you. Thanks for coming on. FLAME MONROE, COMEDIAN: Thank you for having me, Miss Pam. How are

you?

BROWN: I'm doing great this evening. I hope you are, as well.

So I saw a clip on YouTube where you defended Dave Chappelle's right to make whatever joke he wants. But I do want your honest reaction to his repeated statement that gender is a fact. Do you agree with that?

[19:50:09]

MONROE: Oh, I absolutely agree that gender is a fact, and identity is what -- is how you feel on the inside. The part of the problem, Pam, is that we live in a country where if you have the due diligence and the tenacity and the wherewithal, you can live however you feel on the inside freely. A lot of people in other countries cannot do that.

We have taken for granted all the privileges that we have. Now, granted we have many more strides to make in the trans-community, in the black community, in the Caucasian community and as an American people because are so divided.

But hear me when I tell you that I do believe that gender is a fact. You are born with a penis, you are a boy; you are born with a vagina, you are a girl. Everybody's birth certificate says sex: Male, whatever nationality, or sex: female, whatever nationality you are.

BROWN: Right. And there is a difference. There's sex, how you were born, and then there is gender which is argued to be more the identity. The W.H.O., for example says that gender is not, you know, confirmed, but is a social construct and that sex is something you're born with.

MONROE: The W.H.O. is the World Health Organization, right?

BROWN: Yes, the World Health Organization. The World Health Organization says that --

MONROE: ... the vaccine right, if you want to tell me what's between my legs. Oh, okay. I'm making sure I'm aware of what you're saying to me, Pam.

BROWN: I missed some of what you said. But I'm going ask you this question -- in one of his more outrageous riffs, Chappelle compares the genitalia of trans-women to plant-based meat products like the Impossible Burger or Beyond Beef. That make you laugh or cringe?

MONROE: It made me scream out loud laughing because I saw the humor in it. I'm a comedian. I'm a human, and I know who Dave Chappelle is and what Dave Chappelle is. He is a comedian. So I thought it was funny.

And some of the things that he said, Pam, hear me when I tell you as a trans-person I did, like, oh, but when it's the truth and it's funny, it's just humor. It's just laughter. We keep missing that.

BROWN: So what were the things that he said that made you go ooh? MONROE: Well, with the joke that he said about his girlfriend, Daphne,

may she rest in peace, because he said that was his friend. That when he gave her the opportunity as she bombed for 45 minutes, but then when somebody roasted her from the audience and said, does the carpet match the drapes and she said, I don't have carpet, I have hardwood floors. I thought that was hilarious.

We have to be able to take as grown people and stop being so sensitized in this world and be able to take a joke. It's only a joke. Nobody lost their life. Nobody lost -- nobody's blood got cut. Nobody lost their bag -- well, I guess the person who is walking out of Netflix, they're going to lose their bag.

BROWN: So do you see, though, why some people in the transgender community and even beyond that found some of it so offensive and are asking Netflix to take it down? Do you see that side?

MONROE: I absolutely do not see that side. I absolutely think that people should allow people to do what they do. Dave Chappelle is a comedian, and so we are going to attack Dave Chappelle for talking about gender and transgender, let's talk about how he destroyed the white community, let's talk about how he bashed the Jewish community on that show.

Let's talk about all comedians starting with Margaret Cho who is Asian who tears up Asians. JoKoy who is Filipino who destroys Filipinos. Whatever nationality you are -- Sarah Silverstein (sic) who destroys the Jews. Chelsea handlers destroys the Jewish community -- but as a joke.

Because if you pick apart who you are first, it's so much easier for the audience to come with you. Make the audience comfortable by showing them that you are vulnerable.

I didn't take any of that to be offensive enough to take down from Netflix. I applaud Netflix for sticking to their guns. I appreciate them for seeing that the world is not just what you want it to be, but the world is what it is. You have to play along, get along, to go along. Everybody just don't want to do that. Some people are already combative and argumentative. I'm not. I'm a happy person.

BROWN: Well, you seem very happy now, that is for sure, Flame. Let me ask you about this -- in previous specials, Chappelle has made jokes about straight men being tricked by trans-women, and some people say that contributes to violence against trans-women.

Do you think there is such a thing as going too far, where the social commentary with the, you know, being funny and -- from a comedian could actually come with danger at some point?

MONROE: Well, that's a tricky question for me, Pam, because as a transgender woman for more than 30 years, I've never been what you would call a passable tranny, which means I could never fool anyone.

I used to have the most delicious body known to man, but you always knew that I was not a woman. So, I don't think that's fair question to ask me because I would never pass for a woman, so I never had the luxury or dis-luxury of fooling anyone.

[19:55:08]

MONROE: If you came to play, you knew exactly what kind of game we were playing. You know what I mean? So, I don't know if that's fair for me to answer that.

BROWN: All right, Flame Monroe. Listen, you are welcome back on the show any time. We appreciate you coming on to share your perspective. Really quick, Dave Chappelle called you yesterday. You want to tell us what he said?

MONROE: I'm going to tell you that Dave Chappelle is "The Closer," and hopefully I will be the opener.

BROWN: Oh, you don't want to tell us any more than that?

MONROE: Absolutely not. But thank you so much.

BROWN: Okay, Flame Monroe, thank you so much.

And I'll see you again starting tomorrow night at 6:00 Eastern. The CNN special report "Gabby Petito and the Hunt for Justice" is next.

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