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Bannon Contempt Vote; Critical Day For Biden Agenda; FDA To Allow Mix And Match Vaccine Boosters; Miami Asks Vaccinated Students To Stay Home. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 19, 2021 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: In this particular case and what it says more broadly about where we are.

JOHN AVLON, CNN ANCHOR: Stand up. Speak out. Help your fellow citizen. It's basic.

KEILAR: Yes.

CNN's coverage continues right now.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Tuesday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill.

Hours from now the January 6th committee will vote on whether to recommend criminal contempt charges against Trump ally Steve Bannon. This is the most aggressive sign yet that anyone defying those congressional subpoenas could face some real consequences. Overnight, the panel releasing a criminal contempt report on the former White House aide outlining its efforts to get Bannon to comply with the subpoena.

SCIUTTO: Bannon, so far, has remained defiant, refusing to comply, while citing, he claims, executive privilege, an argument that the Biden White House has flat out rejected.

Also, in a new lawsuit against the January 6th committee, former President Trump is going to his old playbook citing executive privilege as well as he tries to block documents related to the insurrection from being turned over to investigators. According to the lawsuit, the National Archives will give the records to Congress November 12th unless a court intervenes before then. House investigators are calling Trump's lawsuit a stall tactic.

CNN law enforcement correspondent Whitney Wild joins us now.

So, we have a vote today. Do we expect this to pass and do we expect it along party lines?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: I would certainly expect it to pass at least through the committee. I would -- I mean, there's just no chance this isn't going to go through the committee. And then once it gets to the House floor, you know, it's still probably pretty likely to pass. I mean we -- you know, the jury's still out on that. There's still a question mark because there are several stages of this.

But very likely to pass through the House and then it will go on to the Department of Justice, where there is still another open-ended question because the attorney general, Merrick Garland, has prosecutorial discretion here. There's always a chance the Department of Justice could decline to move forward on this criminal contempt charge.

What they're looking for here, Jim and Erica, is leverage, because they know that the chances that Steve Bannon actually is put in handcuffs, actually ends up serving any jail time are remote. But they're trying to throw the book at him in an effort to try to get him to testify.

There has been quite a bit of back and forth between Steve Bannon and the committee over the last several weeks. Bannon outright just refusing to comply with this subpoena. Meanwhile, the committee is saying that these arguments he's making, specifically this argument that his communications and his records are protected by executive privilege are basically ridiculous.

They assert that he was not an employee of the White House. The executive privilege does not stretch that far. Specifically they said that basically they believe the case law suggests that executive privilege does not cover communications between President Trump and private citizens, specifically regarding non-governmental work. So that's what the committee is arguing.

Bannon, meanwhile, is arguing that because there's this outstanding question about what is possibly protected under executive privilege, he doesn't have the authority to speak either way and he wants to find out from a judge what he's allowed to say.

The reality, again, is that tonight at 7:30, the committee is going to vote on this. It is going to go to the House floor. So these are the concrete movements we're watching.

Jim and Erica, again, the chances that he actually -- this actually goes to the most extreme place, which is Bannon actually going to jail seem remote. But the committee put him on the early list of subpoenas because they know this could be a lengthy court battle. So they wanted to get the clock ticking on that so that they can get this other information going and then we'll just have to see as this calendar continues.

Erica. Jim.

HILL: Yes, exactly. All right, Whitney, thank you.

Also with us this morning, Jennifer Rodgers, former federal prosecutor and CNN legal analyst. And, actually, I do want to talk about what's happening with former

President Trump, but let's just pick up right there with Steve Bannon, where we were.

So, Jen, when you look at this, you know, part of what Steve Bannon is saying is that he wants to -- he really wants confirmation about what -- what could be protected essentially under executive privilege. Is there anything that you see that would actually fall under that umbrella?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Erica, the interesting thing is, as we all know by now, executive privilege really hasn't been litigated extensively enough to know where the line should be drawn. You know, we have a few court cases, we have some Office of Legal Counsel opinions from DOJ about the parameters of executive privilege, but no one really knows.

So while I think the weight of the evidence is that he won't be able to assert executive privilege, the former president won't be able to assert executive privilege, both because he's the former president and because Steve Bannon was not an executive employee at the time, no one really knows for sure. There may be a kernel there that a court could find a legitimate exercise of executive privilege. No one knows for sure.

SCIUTTO: So you have the merits here, right, like making the arguments about the extent of executive privilege. Then you just have the straight-up tactics here, which is classic Trump stuff here, just, you know, you know, play it along, like push this out as far as possible.

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You spent a lot of time in court as a prosecutor. Can they game it enough just to kick the can down the road so no decision is made in time for the committee to do its work?

RODGERS: Well, that's part of the decision Merrick Garland has to make. I mean if a criminal contempt case is brought, that in and of itself won't force Steve Bannon to testify, although it could land him in jail when he refuses to do so. But that's really the question here, you know, will a judge quickly enough for the House to act make a determination on executive privilege and have that wind its way through the court on appeals? I don't think so. There are just too many layers of court review, too many possible appeals.

But the other interesting wrinkle here is that Trump needs an injunction. Those records are going over from the National Archives in November unless there's an injunction. And to get an injunction, you have to show a probability of success on the merits. So kind of a flip side to what we saw in the Trump administration where the stonewalling actually served to not have things go to Congress.

This, I think, is going to end up being the opposite. A judge is not going to give him an injunction. It's not going to wind its way through for determination on the merits in time. And so I think it's pretty likely that those documents go over, kind of rendering some of this moot in terms of what the president wants to stop getting out to Congress and in the public eye.

HILL: So you think those documents could definitely -- so, again, that deadline, November 12th, as we know, as you pointed out, you can't get an injunction without basically showing that there's a reason for it. And that is not something that the former president has done to this point.

RODGERS: I think that's right. I mean there's no question that, as I said, these -- these are kind of wiggly or blurry lines with respect to where executive privilege is. But, you know, Bannon has really shown a complete defiance, a complete contempt of this subpoena. He's been unwilling to even engage with them, to even say that he admits that there are some documents and testimony that aren't privy to executive privilege.

So he's in a tough spot. And I just don't think the president, for president, is going to be able to demonstrate that these records are subject to executive privilege. You know, there's maybe a kernel there. It's not going to be enough, I don't think, especially without the discovery that -- that goes along with the full examination of the merits in order to get a judge to enjoin that action before November 12th.

SCIUTTO: Just quickly, for folks at home who haven't been following this closely, how central are these documents, these records to the investigation. Can you just describe them and their part in this overall probe?

RODGERS: Well, we're all waiting for the answer to that when we hopefully see them. But they apparently are communications among and between people who were privy to the president's movements and actions and communications leading up to and on January 6th.

So one of the thing that is really critical is, what is the timeline of events there? We know that the -- the attempted coup was going on, the insurrectionists were attacking police officers, breaking into the Capitol and that the president effectively did nothing for hours while the police needed help on the ground.

So what is the timeline of events? What back and forth was going on about what should be done while that attack was happening? Those are things that the National Archives holds, those communications and that timeline. And that is one of the most critical pieces of information that Congress and the public want to see.

HILL: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rodgers, appreciate it, as always. Thank you.

RODGERS: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Well, in an effort to propel his sweeping domestic agenda, President Biden is expected to meet with progressives and moderates in two separate meetings today. By the way, those are members of his own party. This as some Senate Democrats warn against cutting back specifically on climate proposals in the budget. HILL: CNN White House correspondent Jeremy Diamond and CNN Capitol

Hill reporter Melanie Zanona following all the angles for us this morning.

So, Jeremy, let's begin with you.

These two meetings today, what more do we know about them and will they be passing each other in the hall in between meetings?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, listen, we know that these are going to be some important meetings going forward as President Biden seeks to bridge the divide between the two factions of the Democratic Party and reach an agreement on this Build Back Better agenda.

The president is going to be meeting earlier in the afternoon with the progressive members of Congress at 2:00 p.m. And then at 4:30 p.m., we will see another meeting between the president and members of the House and the Senate who represent the more moderate faction of the Republican -- of the Democratic Party.

Before any of those meetings even happen, though, the president is expected to meet once again earlier this morning with Senator Kyrsten Sinema, one of the two key Senate Democrats, her and Joe Manchin, of course, who are central to reaching some kind of agreement here.

The president spoke yesterday with Senator Joe Manchin. So, as you can see, there is a lot of activity. And White House officials say that the increasing pace of these meetings is a sign that progress is happening. They feel that the pace of these talks has accelerated, and they're encouraged by what is happening so far.

[09:10:03]

They're also encouraged by the fact that we're starting to see not just the White House meeting with these different factions, but we're starting to see the different sides of this issue begin to meet together. Yesterday we saw Senator Joe Manchin, Senator Bernie Sanders speaking on the steps of the Capitol.

We also know that Senator Manchin met with Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, the leader of the Progressive Caucus. And so all of that, according to White House officials, signals that progress is being made.

That being said, none of the major decisions on these different policy areas have yet to be made yet. And that is also why you are going to be seeing the president ramping up his public efforts this week. On Wednesday he's traveling to Scranton, Pennsylvania, to make the case. And then on Thursday he has this CNN town hall. All of those central to ramping up the public pressure to get to a deal before he leaves for his foreign trip next week.

SCIUTTO: All right, Melanie, so, climate, right? I mean this is not just how much you spend on a particular program. For many Democrats, this is sort of a, you know, a life or death issue here. And some Senate Democrats are warning they could vote against the overall spending bill if those key climate provisions are nixed.

What are you hearing? There's been a lot of reporting this week that because you don't have agreement with the Manchins of the world, you've got to pull it entirely out. I mean is that where we're going to end up?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Right, it's like a Rubik's Cube. I -- this battle over climate change is just shaping up to be the latest sticking point in the negotiations. Joe Manchin, who we should point out, represents a coal state, has come out firmly against a key clean energy program in the bill. So now negotiators are scrambling to come up with some sort of alternative. Whether that's a carbon tax or potentially watering down those clean energy provisions.

But the risk there is that then you could lose lawmakers on the left. And several Democratic lawmakers have already said they cannot support a bill that does not have a robust climate change agenda in there. However, they are leaving it open to what that looks like.

Of course, all of this is just one of several tension points in the Democratic Party right now. Things have gotten especially heated between Joe Manchin and Bernie Sanders, who wants the negotiations to speed up. He even placed an op-ed in a West Virginia publication last week which Manchin did not take kindly to.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): anyone thinks they know West Virginia and what we've done and what we continue to do for this country, and that's all -- I want to make sure they're respected properly.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He said he's holding -- you're holding up the Biden agenda.

MANCHIN: Well, no, there's 52 senators that don't agree, OK? And there's two that want to work something out, if possible, in the most rational, reasonable way. That's all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: So, look, Joe Biden and Democratic leaders are clearly in deal-making mode right now, but there is still a long way to go to bridge the gap between these competing factions in the Democratic Party and to build the trust.

Jim. Erica.

HILL: And so we wait yet again.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: Melanie Zanona, Jeremy Diamond, appreciate it. Thank you, both.

Well, President Biden will discuss his ambitious legislative agenda with our own Anderson Cooper in a CNN town hall this Thursday night. Be sure to tune in at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. SCIUTTO: Yes, that will be an important moment.

Still ahead, a Miami private school is under fire for spreading COVID disinformation. Why they're forcing students who get the vaccine to stay home for 30 days.

Plus, the gang that kidnapped 17 missionaries in Haiti, including children, they now want $17 million for their release, a million dollars per hostage. We're going to take you live to Port-au-Prince.

HILL: And former President Trump under oath for four hours yesterday, answering questions in a lawsuit over a 2015 protest outside of Trump Tower. What the lawyers in the room are saying about that time.

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[09:18:01]

HILL: Big news on the vaccine front. We are expecting an announcement this week about mixing and matching coronavirus vaccines. "The New York Times" is reporting the FDA will reportedly say vaccinated Americans can get boosters that are different from their initial dose.

SCIUTTO: The announcement comes one week after the FDA Vaccine Advisory Board voted to recommend Emergency Use Authorization for both Moderna and J&J booster shots. The agency gave authorization for the Pfizer booster shots back in September.

Joining us now, Dr. Richina Bicette, medical director at Baylor College of Medicine and an emergency medicine physician.

Doctor, great to have you back.

So, I know that there will be a portion of this country who says it's too confusing, mix and match, what does that mean? But I sort of look at this and say, it's good news, right, in that basically the FDA is saying, whatever vaccine you took prior, any booster from another vaccine is going to help you, right? I mean is that the way we should look at it as a bottom line?

DR. RICHINA BICETTE, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE AND EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: Absolutely, Jim. Basically what the FDA is saying is that a vaccine is a vaccine. They will all produce an antibody response. So if you cannot get a booster of whatever vaccine you got initially, that should not preclude you from trying to go get yourself protected. Please go get vaccinated.

HILL: Can we -- and just specifically on Johnson & Johnson, because so many people have had this question. I was talking with a friend on Sunday who got J&J, and she said, so what am I going to do now? So the fact that they can mix and match, if one of your patients come to you and said, I got J&J, am I better off getting Moderna or Pfizer as a booster, what's your advice?

BICETTE: Well, that answer is a little bit complicated. If you look at the studies, those who initially got the Johnson & Johnson vaccine did have a higher antibody response if they got a booster with the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. However, having a higher antibody response isn't necessarily better because being boosted with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine still does give you adequate protection against severe illness and death.

[09:20:08]

SCIUTTO: OK, let's talk about vaccine mandates because those, like everything else in this pandemic, has been politicized. Fact is, I mean, I've talked to folks about this, the company -- many companies actually welcome this, you know. They've been telling the White House, I'm glad you're doing it, right? Better to have you kind of mandate this and then we can kind of hide behind that a little bit to require employees to be vaccinated.

But set aside the politics for a moment. What does the data show? Does the data show that vaccine mandates succeed in their primary objective, which is to get more people vaccinated?

BICETTE: Vaccine mandates absolutely do get more people vaccinated. And, you know what, Jim, we've gone back and forth about, should we require, should we not require COVID vaccines. And we forget that vaccine mandates are the reason why a lot of Americans in this country don't know what it's like to suffer from polio and to be paralyzed. It's the reason why a lot of children don't have to run around with calamine lotion on taking oatmeal baths because they don't have to suffer from chicken pox. Vaccines do work to eradicate disease, absolutely.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.

HILL: You know, another thing I want to get your -- your take on. So CNN has new reporting that the CDC is actually working with some school districts and they're looking at what's called a Test-To-Stay program. So if someone is exposed to the virus, to a positive case, they can test instead of quarantine.

What's your take on that approach?

BICETTE: So, the CDC has released recommendations for people who are vaccinated and have said that you can wait about three to five days after exposure before getting tested, especially if you don't have symptoms.

However, for people who are not vaccinated, they may not start to show any symptoms within the first couple of days. So if you're taking a test, the test may be negative, although they may end up being sick. So I'm not really sure about that Test-To-Stay program.

HILL: Sad fact in this, you now have some, and, frankly, just say it out loud, Republican politicians who are not just attacking the vaccine mandate for COVID, or the possibility of vaccine mandates, but for other vaccines, which, by the way, are mandated, right, you've got to go to school, your kid's got to get like six vaccines, right, to help prevent polio from coming back and so on. Are we headed towards that kind of new reality here where we might

see, you know, the resurgence of some of these other diseases and infections because of politicizing vaccines, which decades of science have shown work?

BICETTE: We've already seen, even prior to COVID, there have been instances of small outbreaks of diseases that typically we don't see often. For example, there was a measles outbreak in the northwest a few years ago, in a small population of those who were unvaccinated. So it is true, if you choose not to get vaccines, your child and your community can potentially be exposed to things that we don't see very often. I don't understand the point of regressing.

SCIUTTO: Yes, I don't -- I don't either. I mean you just have to read the history books, right, because these were really deeply dangerous, deadly, horrible diseases.

Dr. Richina Bicette, thanks so much.

BICETTE: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, a private school in Miami has become a hotbed of anti- vaxx conspiracy theories is once again making damaging headlines.

HILL: The Centner school is now requiring any students who get vaccinated to stay home for 30 days. The same school actually threatened to send vaccinated teachers home for the rest of the year.

CNN's Leyla Santiago joining us now live from Miami.

I am floored by this, also because the reason that they're giving is certainly not based in science, Leyla.

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. These are false claims. Remember, Erica and Jim, I stood here, right here in April and told you about how this private school was asking teachers to hold off on getting vaccinated, and they were listing off a whole bunch of false claims that was supposedly backing their reason for encouraging this. And here we are again today, this time for what you mentioned, Erica, they are asking parents that if they are to get their students vaccinated, to keep them home for 30 days.

Now, they sent a letter home to parents, and I want to read you a part of that. It was a letter obtained by WSVN, our affiliate, in which it says, if you are considering the vaccine for your Centner Academy students, we ask that you hold off until the summer when there will be time for the potential transmission or shedding on to others to decrease.

Jim, Erica, I know I don't have to tell you, but for the record, that is not true. That is false. There are no credible reports out there that indicate that the COVID-19 vaccine in any way supports transmission of COVID-19.

[09:25:05] The school maintains that all they want is more information, more studies, and that's something that I have been hearing from them for the last six months. Listen to my exchange with the CEO and co-founder in April.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEILA CENTNER, FOUNDER, CENTNER ACADEMY: Let's get more information. Let's learn more about this.

SANTIAGO: You want more information?

CENTNER: Yes, that's all I want. I want more information.

SANTIAGO: You want more information? Have you looked at the FDA? Have you looked at the CDC? Have you looked at the World Health Organization, because they do say that this is effective?

CENTNER: It's an experiment right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANTIAGO: The leaders of the school maintain that this is still experimental. In fact, they said that they're basing their decision based off of anecdotal reports. And I should mention, if you check in with the medical community here, they will tell you, that information, credible, scientific-based information is out there. And it says that the COVID-19 vaccine is not only safe, but also effective in preventing the spread of transmission of COVID-19.

HILL: Yes, the information that they seem to be unable to find is readily available. It's something we've all used for months, right, in our own reporting and our own research.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SANTIAGO: Right.

HILL: I mean, it just leaves me scratching my head, especially because, as you pointed out, Leyla, but if we have to say it again, when you get a shot of the vaccine, it's not like a flu shot where you're getting a little bit of the virus from last year.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: This is -- there is no COVID in that shot. It is -- it is remarkable and it is, quite frankly, sad.

Leyla --

SCIUTTO: Damaging. Deadly.

HILL: Yes. Yes.

SCIUTTO: List the terms, right? All those things, yes. HILL: Yes. But then, you know, it makes you wonder too, like, kids who

are going to that school, are these things that their parents believe to begin with and that they're not seeking out the information as well.

Leyla, appreciate it, as always. Thank you.

SANTIAGO: Yes.

HILL: Still to come, new details about where the kidnapped Americans are being held in Haiti. Also, the ransom a local gang is now demanding for their release. We ae live in Port-au-Prince.

SCIUTTO: And we're moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Stocks are rallying as major companies continue to report strong, new earnings. The jump signifies more businesses are able to work through ongoing supply chain challenges and still generate solid profits. But inflation does still remain a concern for investors.

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