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FDA Likely to Approve Mix-and-Match Vaccine Boosters; Congress Set to Vote on Contempt Charges Against Steve Bannon; Interview With Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY); Infrastructure Negotiations. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired October 19, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That group and the gang since they were taken on Saturday, the first call coming in just a few hours after they were kidnapped.

We also know, though, from a source in Haitian security forces that, at this point, the hostages are safe -- Ana.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Matt Rivers, thank you for the update.

That does it for us. We will see you tomorrow at 1:00. The news continues right now.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello. Thank you for joining us. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

A pivotal hour for President Biden starts right now at the White House. He has gathered nine progressive members of Congress together to talk through their desire for more programs and spending as part of their social safety net package.

Then, later today, he will meet with a group of moderate Democrats who do not want all of those things. Exactly how this will resolve something is unclear.

BLACKWELL: Well, this morning, Senator Kyrsten Sinema, one of the moderate seen as holding up negotiations, the progressives say, was at the White House.

Everything on the president's schedule in the coming days is telegraphing one central goal, that it's time to close the deal on the Build Back Better plan. And President Biden believes he's the moderator who can get it done.

With us now, CNN senior White House correspondent Phil Mattingly and CNN congressional correspondent Lauren Fox.

Lauren, you're up first.

Progressives are now in this meeting, but we're getting some specifics today about what Senator Joe Manchin feels about some of the climate change proposals.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, exactly, Victor.

Look, Joe Manchin making it very clear today that he is opposed to yet another provision that Democrats had been eying as part of this bigger social safety net bill. Specifically, he is opposed to a carbon tax. And that, of course, is something that gives businesses an incentive to use alternative fuels.

Senator Manchin saying that is not on the table. Here's what he said earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Are you OK with the carbon tax?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): No, no, we're not talking -- that's -- we haven't talked about that.

Yes, no, we're not -- we're not -- the carbon tax is not on the board at all right now, OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And the carbon tax was something that a lot of progressives up here in the Senate were hoping might be some bridge to get Manchin on board, obviously, Manchin closing it down, as you just saw there.

But this is part of a broader effort from Democrats. You have Senator Manchin, who is complicated on the issue of climate change because of where he's from. He's from a coal-producing state in West Virginia. He is seeing this and viewing this through the eyes of what is going to help or not help his state.

And he just says he can't get there on the issue of climate change. Meanwhile, you have progressives saying they aren't going to support a bill that doesn't deal substantially with the issue of climate change.

So how they bridge that gap is just one of a plethora of issues that lawmakers are really digging into right now. Democrats are having their private Senate lunch just a few feet away from here. They are hoping that that gives them some more clarity, some more direction on where they can go in these negotiations.

But, look, climate change just one provision, again, out of this broader piece of legislation that Democrats haven't even agreed to a top line on yet -- Victor and Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK.

So, Phil, Democrats have been wanting Biden to play a bigger role in these negotiations. Is that what's happening today?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think in part, to some degree. Look, you have to think about where negotiations have been, guys, over the course of the last couple of weeks, is largely behind the scenes and largely focused on two senators. Lauren was just talking about one of them, Senator Joe Manchin. The other is moderate Arizona Senator Kyrsten Sinema.

There has been intensive, granular negotiations, I'm told, between White House, Democratic leadership officials and their policy staffs and those two senators and their teams trying to figure out if there is some kind of path forward.

Now, the president met in the Oval Office separately with Senators Manchin and Sinema this morning. What this afternoon represents is kind of an effort to broaden out where things stand, to check where progress may have been made with Sinema and Manchin off of two critical constituencies, the progressives right now, the moderates later on.

And those constituencies, guys, as you know quite well, don't necessarily get along at all times. And Jen Psaki addressed that just a few moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: They aren't duels between factions of the party. There's broad agreement, actually, about the vast majority of issues here.

So the president's basing this approach on five decades of Washington, which is a pretty good guide for how to get things done, and he felt these were the appropriate groups to come together and bring to the White House today.

QUESTION: But he wanted to keep them separate?

PSAKI: Well, I think it's important for people to understand it's not as if these members don't talk to each other in Congress or don't have their own meetings with each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And, guys, I would note that over the course of the last several days, it's felt like Senators Bernie Sanders and Joe Manchin may have been headed for a duel, though they appear to have made up at least to some degree last night in a private meeting.

But I think this gets at the president's approach. And, as you noted quite well, Alisyn, Democrats have been very critical of that approach over the course of the last several weeks, feeling negotiations have been dragging on, feeling like the president should do more to put his foot down to set a hard line to start the process moving forward.

[14:05:03]

I think the president, as Jen Psaki was alluding to, is going off of his experience, feels like this is the best path forward. But there's no question, as we see this ramp up over the course of the next several days, time is definitely of the essence.

And I think Democrats on both sides of Pennsylvania Avenue feel like that window is closing, and closing fast, guys.

BLACKWELL: All right, Phil Mattingly, Lauren Fox, thank you so much.

With me now, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, Democrat of New York.

Senator, thanks for being with me.

Let's start here with climate, which is the -- I guess the standoff of the day. We have heard from Senator Manchin that he does not support a carbon tax, which is supposed to be the fill-in for the clean energy program, which he does not support.

Can you achieve the president's goals and satisfy the members who want substantive climate legislation without either of those programs?

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): I think we can.

I think that we are in a moment in history where severe weather has been such a burden on so many communities across the United States, and so many families have suffered. We have lost lives, we have lost homes, we have lost businesses, and I think Congress will come together.

And I think there will be provisions in this bill that can address global climate change and severe weather. And I think they will get to a final goal of making real, real change with regard to global climate change.

BLACKWELL: But how do you get there?

Because what we have heard from Senator Manchin -- and, listen, we understand that he's representing a coal energy state there in West Virginia. He's been a no on many of the got-to-do's for some of the progressives in the Senate.

How do you get there?

GILLIBRAND: I think there's ways to put a price on carbon by incentivizing renewables, incentivizing clean energy, incentivizing being more energy-efficient, and there's ways to do that.

And I think that that is what the committees are working on.

BLACKWELL: But those are the grants and the tax breaks that Senator Manchin has said no to.

GILLIBRAND: I don't think he said no to anything in specific terms. I think he is negotiating in good faith with the White House to get to a place where he feels comfortable.

BLACKWELL: OK, so let's turn now to paid leave.

First banner question here, is there a scenario in which a bill without federal paid leave gets your vote?

GILLIBRAND: I think we will get a bill that has federal paid leave in it. I just left the caucus meeting. And I made a presentation to the caucus, including Senator Manchin, about what families are facing all across New York, all across West Virginia and all across the country.

We had challenges before COVID. But COVID laid bare what families are experiencing. Families had to leave the work force. Women, over five million women had to leave the work force because of the challenges of COVID, because schools were closed, day cares were closed, kids had to learn remotely.

And millions of women have not even been able to return to the work force because of these challenges. And so I have just made the case that, if you want people who want to be working, they need the structural support, the economic supports to do it. They need to have paid leave when they have a new infant and want to nurse the baby, or have a parent, a mother who's dying, and they need to be by their side, or a family member, a child, who's sick and needs to be cared for.

That is the realities of Americans today. And if you want those workers to go back to work after these life emergencies, in West Virginia, 40 percent of moms will be more likely to go back to work if they have paid leave after having that child.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

GILLIBRAND: And so I made that case directly to Senator Manchin, to the entire caucus about what life is like.

And that's what the Build Back Better agenda is. It's about families. It's about people. It's about helping people in times of great need.

BLACKWELL: I hear that.

GILLIBRAND: And you can't pick one without the other. You can't say, well, I'm OK with paid leave, but not OK with child care, because if you help that mom nurse that baby for that first three months, but then there's no child care for that baby to go into, well, then mom can't go back to work.

You need to do both.

BLACKWELL: I hear you, Senator.

(CROSSTALK)

GILLIBRAND: And so I made that case. I think we will get there.

So what I'm saying is, I'm optimistic that we will get there.

BLACKWELL: You're saying that you think you will get there, you're optimistic.

My question was a different one. Is there any scenario in which you would vote for a bill that does not have federal paid leave?

GILLIBRAND: Well, that would be very hard for me to do, because it's very hard for me to say if there's no paid leave in the bill that I would vote for it.

BLACKWELL: OK.

GILLIBRAND: So I will wait and see. And I will work as hard as I possibly can to make sure that something as important as paid leave is in this bill.

But all the things we have talked about are important. And I'm going to work with my colleagues to get everyone to yes.

BLACKWELL: Let me ask you. I'm going to stay on paid leave for a moment.

Of course, the question is, how much will this bill cost? Twelve weeks of paid leave, family paid and medical leave, federal government covering 60 percent of it. Where are you willing to negotiate, the length of time, the cap per month, the percentage that the federal government will pay?

Because the question for some of the moderates is, what is the top- line number and how do you reach that? Where are you willing to budge?

[14:10:02]

GILLIBRAND: So, the top-line number at the end of the day is not the question.

The question is, are you going to create a program that's going to meet the need of families? Long term, we want to get 12 weeks for all life events, because that's pretty much the bare minimum. If we can't get to 12 weeks for all live events on day one, then we will get to X- number of weeks for all life events on day one.

And that X, again, it doesn't matter as much as creating the safety net that families desperately need. And so if we have an arbitrary limit on how much we can invest today, we will meet that arbitrary limit and, over time, fight for more resources. It's important to create the program, it's important to make it permanent, to make sure it lasts a full 10 years.

And it's important that it is gender-neutral for all life events. Those are the most important aspects. And how much it covers and up to how much of income that it covers, those can be debatable.

The way we wrote the program and the way it was last negotiated had a cap of $5,000 a month. That means if your income is $60,000 a year, you could get full wage replacement, I suggest that, if it's full wage replacement, that you tax it, so it's progressive.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

GILLIBRAND: So, for example, if you're very wealthy, you have a tax rate of 40 percent. If you are a low-wage worker, you might have a tax rate of 10 percent. That's fair.

But if you have that cap at $5,000 a month, then the most anybody's going to get is a $5,000-a-month benefit.

BLACKWELL: So, what has been the response?

GILLIBRAND: And that makes it a very progressive and it makes it a very means-tested program, which is in lines with what Senator Manchin has said he's looking for in a lot of these programs.

BLACKWELL: So what have you heard from -- you made your case.

What have you heard from some of the moderates who are wondering about the overall cost?

GILLIBRAND: I have had favorable responses to date that, because it's progressive, because it is means-tested, because it seems reasonable, because it is something that's needed, because it's something families watch, because it's bipartisan, I think 74 percent of Republicans support it, and 80 something percent of Democrats and Americans support it, it's widely supported across the country.

Its time has certainly come. And we're the only industrialized nation in the world that doesn't have paid leave. But, again, we have to keep working, keep listening, keep finding common ground, which I intend to do with my colleagues, until we all get to yes.

And if we have to shorten the amount of time that is covered, shorten the amount of resources that are provided, those things can be debated. It's more important that we answer the call of the need, which is the support for families when they need to care for a loved one.

BLACKWELL: Understood.

Well, Senator, let me ask you this. There are some of your colleagues on Capitol Hill who are dissatisfied or underwhelmed by the approach from the White House, the lack of forcefulness, the way some are describing it, that the president is involved.

How would you rate? Are you satisfied with how the president is approaching the negotiations?

GILLIBRAND: I am.

And I have to tell you, President Biden has been on this every day for the last several months. And I have been to the White House twice and met with the president and spoke to him about paid leave, about other issues. And he has not only briefed me on his negotiations and the negotiations he had that day. He's on this every single day.

And he has been not only talking to my colleagues in the House and the Senate repeatedly, but our leadership. And he's not going to let go until he gets it across the finish line. And I think that's why he's the president of the United States. BLACKWELL: If he's a moderator, why not get both sides in one room

together at the White House, instead of progressives in the morning or moderates in the afternoon?

GILLIBRAND: I think he is negotiating in the way he believes is most effective.

BLACKWELL: All right, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York, thank you.

GILLIBRAND: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: So, President Biden will discuss his ambitious legislative agenda with CNN's Anderson Cooper in a CNN town hall Thursday night. That is at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Tune in.

Well, tonight, the House panel investigating the January 6 Capitol attack will vote to officially begin the process of criminal contempt charges against Trump ally Steve Bannon.

And we're learning that Bannon's attorney just requested a delay of this meeting, but the committee denied it.

CAMEROTA: Bannon has been refusing to comply with the subpoena, seeking documents and communications from January 6 and more.

The former chief strategist for the ex-president cites executive privilege, though he left the Trump administration in 2017.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Paula Reid is tracking this story.

So, explain the process that they're going to start tonight with the Justice Department involved.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So, Victor, tonight, the House committee will move to adopt this report that they have compiled.

It lays out exactly what they wanted from Bannon, their efforts to get him to comply and how he refused. And if that succeeds, it moves to the full House for a vote, and then it likely moves on to the Justice Department, where the decision about whether to proceed lies with Attorney General Merrick Garland.

At this point, it's unclear what the attorney general will do, but we know two things. One is that the attorney general is facing a lot of political pressure, and, according to experts, I have spoken with, Bannon has made the decision a little bit easier for him.

[14:15:06]

Now, in terms of the political pressure, late last week, President Biden said that he believes, yes, Bannon should be prosecuted for contempt. Now, that is notable because the Justice Department is, of course, supposed to be independent. But other Democratic lawmakers have also come out and said they want

this prosecution because they believe, if there are no consequences for refusing to comply with a subpoena, they won't be able to do their job.

But the Justice Department has come out and said they will make an independent decision based on the facts and the law, full stop. Now, in terms of the case before the attorney general potentially, if this continues to move forward, I'm told by legal experts on both sides of the aisle that Bannon could have made this a lot more difficult.

He could have muddied the waters by showing up and answering some questions, but then refusing to answer others, either pleading the Fifth or citing executive privilege. Instead, he and his attorney just fired off a letter just saying a blanket we will not comply unless we are ordered by a court and citing executive privilege, even though a lot of the materials the committee is seeking, they have nothing to do with conversations with the former president.

So it'll be interesting to see what exactly the attorney general does with this.

CAMEROTA: OK, so, Paula, also, the House is facing a new legal fight from Donald Trump.

He's suing the committee and apparently the National Archives to keep his records private. So what's his plan?

REID: That's right.

In this lawsuit filed yesterday, he is seeking to block the committee from getting records from his time at the White House related to January 6. Now, he argues that, as a former president, he should still be able to assert executive privilege, even if the current president doesn't agree.

And this really does kick off an interesting legal dispute between the House committee, the Archives, and the former president, raises some novel legal issues. But legal experts I have spoken with say, look, this is a long shot. I'm told it looks like here his attorneys are just trying a few different legal theories, hoping that, at best case, they can block some of these materials from getting to investigators, but at the very least, maybe they can just delay these proceedings.

Now the former president is on notice that he has until November 12 to get a court to intervene. Otherwise, these materials, this first batch will be handed over.

CAMEROTA: Yes, this is happening quickly.

OK, Paula Reid, thank you for all of that.

We also have some major news on the vaccine front. The FDA says it will approve mixing and matching COVID booster shots, or at least they're signaling that that's what they will approve coming up, so what that means for you. BLACKWELL: And look at this. This is coming to us from Texas, a plane with more than 20 people on board, the fuselage engulfed in flames here. Everyone got off safely.

CAMEROTA: That's amazing.

BLACKWELL: We will tell you this story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:22:07]

CAMEROTA: If you're planning to get a booster shot, you may soon have more options.

BLACKWELL: Sources tell CNN the FDA is set to approve of mix-and- match approach for boosters as soon as tomorrow.

Now, that means, if you got Johnson & Johnson initially, your booster could be Pfizer or Moderna.

CNN's Alexandra Field has that and more in today's COVID headlines.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More Americans, tens of millions, could soon be eligible for a booster shot. The FDA is considering whether to authorize Moderna and J&J boosters and a CDC advisory committee could recommend them as soon as Thursday.

Two sources tell CNN the FDA is planning to allow Americans to mix and match coronavirus vaccines when they receive their boosters.

DR. RICHINA BICETTE, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: If you cannot get a booster of whatever vaccine you got initially, that should not preclude you from trying to go get yourself protected. Please go get vaccinated.

FIELD: But some 65 million Americans are still choosing not to get any shot.

Washington state's highest paid public employee, football coach Nick Rolovich, fired for refusing to comply with the state's vaccine mandate, along with four of his assistant coaches.

DAN WOLKEN, "USA TODAY": Coaches across the country always try to teach to their players to sacrifice for the team. And in Nick Rolovich's case, not only did he refuse to do that. He never really explained himself.

FIELD: Los Angeles' vaccine mandate for city workers takes effect tomorrow, the city now preparing for as many as a third of its sworn officers to defy it.

There's evidence, though, that vaccine mandates are broadly working. There's 90 percent compliance with Washington state's mandate for all state workers, 99 percent with Seattle's, 91 percent with Oregon's. In the most vaccine resistant regions, tensions are rising.

In Florida, a private school perpetuating false claims about the adverse effects of vaccines, asking parents to keep vaccinated students home for 30 days. And in a letter to the Justice Department, local health officials are now seeking protection, citing -- quote -- "a rise in harassment and threats targeting school personnel," that kind of harassment too much for this Illinois school board member.

CAROLYN WAIBEL, FORMER ILLINOIS SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER: So I'm the second board member to resign this year from my board. I have been approached by other board members in our area that have the same thing going on. I need to do what's right for my family and put their personal safety first.

FIELD: All this as new COVID cases and COVID-related hospitalizations falls nearly three-month lows, with more than two-thirds of eligible Americans now vaccinated.

Still, there is more cause for concern, particularly for the unvaccinated. A CNN analysis shows five states experiencing cold weather are now seeing the biggest pockets of increases.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD: And we talk about the challenges that come with cold weather, but we don't have to have the same challenges that we had a year ago because we have tools now that we didn't have back then, vaccines.

And, to that point, we are seeing new data today that shows just how effective these vaccines are in the real world. We're seeing Pfizer data that shows that the vaccine is 93 percent effective in protecting against hospitalization for adolescents, a key stat for a lot of parents out there, I think.

[14:25:13]

CAMEROTA: Well, Alex Field, thank you for that.

BLACKWELL: Thank you.

Well, the FBI has swarmed the D.C. home of a Russian oligarch and Putin ally. What we're learning about the raid, we will have that next.

CAMEROTA: And how did every single person, including a 10-year-old, survive this plane crash today?

We're live on the scene.

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