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Congress Set to Vote on Contempt Charges Against Steve Bannon; Interview With U.S. Education Secretary Miguel Cardona; Infrastructure Negotiations. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired October 19, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:01:14]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Top of the hour. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

We're starting with two pivotal meetings at the White House. First, last hour, President Biden met with nine progressives. I believe it's still going on. They're members of Congress who are pursuing more programs and spending as part of their social safety net package.

Now, later today, he will meet with a group of moderate Democrats who do not want all of those programs, certainly not all the spending.

CAMEROTA: We know that the climate change provisions have been on the chopping block for some of the moderates. So, today, Senator Joe Manchin said flat out that he will not support a carbon tax in the bill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Are you OK with the carbon tax?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): No, no, we're not talking -- that's -- we haven't talked about that.

Yes, no, we're not -- we're not -- the carbon tax is not on the board at all right now, OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, with us now, we have CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju and CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

Manu, we understand you have some new reporting about what happened at this caucus lunch today. What was it?

RAJU: Well, Democrats have actually emerged upbeat after this lunch.

Just moments ago, Chuck Schumer, the majority leader, said he hopes that they can come to some sort of consensus, maybe an agreement among their own caucus, by the end of this week on a top-line agreement about what is in this massive expansion of the social safety net bill that has been badly dividing their party for months.

Progressives and moderates have been on different sides of the equation on the price tag, the details, and moderates, led by Senator Joe Manchin, who has had a number of concerns. But I am told at this closed-door lunch, he spent basically the entire lunch fielding questions, going back and forth with his members about the way forward.

And members emerged thinking that he is -- could be on board ultimately by the end of the week. Now, there's still just so many details that they have to sort out, one of which also, a very big detail, is Kyrsten Sinema, the other Democratic moderate who has been resisting what the progressives have been pushing, whether she also could get on board behind something that they could sign off on in both wings of the party.

Now I am told that Sinema was not in attendance at today's Senate Democratic lunch. She did have our own private audience with the president earlier today, as did Joe Manchin. So how they get there from here until then remains to be seen. But I can tell you, in talking to Democrats, they are weary about these months and months and months of negotiations.

They want a deal to come together. But, still, they actually have to sign on the dotted line and get behind specifics. We will see if they can get there.

BLACKWELL: So, Kaitlan, why isn't the White House meeting with progressives and moderates together? I mean, why are they holding these meetings in the afternoon, then another meeting in the evening?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a good question, because those are the two groups, of course, that aren't agreeing with each other over how to put the president's economic agenda into law.

And those are the two groups they need to agree with one another so they can have some kind of agreement, so they can move forward potentially on that other infrastructure bill that is waiting on a vote and move forward with this.

But they are not at that point yet, which does kind of speak to the level of where these talks are, though the White House says progress is being made. You see how these meetings are being conducted, largely the way they have over the last several weeks, where the president met this morning, as Manu noted, with Senator Sinema and Senator Manchin.

Now he's meeting with a group of progressive lawmakers from his party and then meeting with the moderates. And so we asked the White House earlier, why not just have all of these lawmakers in one room because those are the ones they need to hash out an agreement with?

And this is what Jen Psaki says is their line of thinking when they have these two separate meetings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: They aren't duels between factions of the party. There's broad agreement, actually, about the vast majority of issues here.

So the president's basing this approach on five decades of Washington, which is a pretty good guide for how to get things done, and he felt these were the appropriate groups to come together and bring to the White House today.

QUESTION: But he wanted to keep them separate?

[15:05:00]

PSAKI: Well, I think it's important for people to understand it's not as if these members don't talk to each other in Congress or don't have their own meetings with each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So, of course, there is still a lot of negotiating happening here.

The White House does say that they feel that they are getting to the final stages of these talks, though, of course, a big critical piece of this and that some lawmakers have said they'd like to see done today, which is an agreement on a top-line number, because, yes, there are many other areas in which they disagree, including climate change and what the provisions are going to be around that.

How do you get there? Is there a carbon tax? Is there not a carbon tax? But they have not yet agreed on an actual price tag for this bill. But, of course, that is going to be a big stepping-stone before they decide the other pieces of what goes in and what comes out.

And that's still not a place that they are in yet today as these meetings are happening.

CAMEROTA: Hmm. I guess one woman's duel is another woman's in person negotiation, but OK.

Manu, let's talk. Let's switch gears a little bit. So we have seen this wave of Republicans who are already embracing former President Trump for a 2024 run. I know you just went to the minority leader, Mitch McConnell's press conference. You asked him about that. Is he excited about that possibility?

RAJU: It doesn't seem that way.

Remember, after January 6, after the president's then -- former president, his impeachment trial that occurred in the Senate -- of course, he had been finished in his term in office while that trial was ongoing.

And Mitch McConnell voted to quit Donald Trump. Afterwards, he said that Donald Trump was practically and morally responsible for the actions that happened on January 6. Now, since then, Trump, of course, has been attacking McConnell relentlessly, calling for a new Republican to lead the Senate Republican Conference.

But we have seen Republicans embrace Donald Trump, including at a donor retreat for the Senate Republican Campaign Committee in South Florida last week. Donald Trump was the key guest there. Also at a Iowa rally over just about a week-and-a-half ago, Donald Trump was there offering his endorsement to Chuck Grassley, the veteran Republican senator, who embraced that endorsement.

So I asked Mitch McConnell if he was comfortable with his colleagues embracing the former president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Well, I do think we need to be talking about the future and not the past.

I think the American people are focusing on this administration, what it's doing to the country. And it's my hope that the '22 election will be a referendum on the performance of the current administration, not a rehash of suggestions about what may have happened in 2020.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So that's the key question, not about what happened in 2020. That's what Mitch McConnell said. He wants the focus to be on Biden.

Of course, the former president wants to focus to be on 2020. In fact, he even said that he hopes that voters will essentially not come out if Republicans don't embrace what he has said, his lie that the election was stolen.

So that is a completely different message from the top two Republicans in the party as they try to recapture control of both chambers of Congress. But you're seeing where Mitch McConnell is here. He doesn't want to talk about Trump. He wants to talk about the future, but can his party do the same?

CAMEROTA: Yes, I don't think Senator McConnell likes that don't vote strategy that President Trump is floating.

All right now, Kaitlan Collins, Manu Raju, thank you both very much.

BLACKWELL: Well, don't miss a CNN exclusive. President Joe Biden takes questions from the American people. Anderson Cooper moderates a CNN presidential town hall with Joe Biden Thursday night at 8:00.

CAMEROTA: OK, we are hours away now from a rare event on Capitol Hill.

The House committee investigating the January 6 attack is preparing a criminal contempt referral against Trump ally Steve Bannon. The last time something like this happened was in the Reagan administration. Bannon, as you know, is refusing to comply with subpoenas, citing executive privilege.

We are learning that Bannon's attorney tried to delay this meeting, but the House committee denied that request.

BLACKWELL: And more resistance is coming from former President Trump himself. He just filed a suit against the committee and the National Archives to keep records from his presidency secret.

The former president is also claiming executive privilege. His attorney is a reported Stop the Steal lawyer who has tried to overturn election results.

CNN's Ryan Nobles is on Capitol Hill.

So explain to us what's going to happen at this committee vote tonight.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor and Alisyn, there probably won't be too many surprises.

The committee is going to gavel in for a business meeting at 7:30, where there will be a couple of opening statements. They will introduce this report, which will lead to a referral of criminal contempt of Steve Bannon. They will vote on it and then it will be sent to the full House.

Now, we're not exactly sure when the full House will take that measure up. It could come this week, but possibly in the near future. Once the entire House votes on it, it then gets referred to the Department of Justice, who will prosecute the case against Steve Bannon.

And this could be a lengthy process. It will likely end up in a court of law on some level, as Bannon works to defend executive privilege on behalf of the former president and make the claim that any conversation or any communication that he had with the president while he was president falls under that executive privilege banner.

[15:10:15]

Some legal experts raise their eyebrows at that claim, especially because Bannon was no longer a federal employee at the time of these communications around January 6.

But this is a message the committee is sending not just to Bannon, but to the other subpoena targets and even people that they have just asked to cooperate with their investigation, that they're going to take this very seriously. And if you do not comply with their subpoenas or their requests for information related to January 6, they are willing to use whatever tool they have at their disposal to compel that cooperation.

The first stage of that is tonight. They promised that they would use a criminal contempt charge against Bannon if it was necessary, and that is what they're taking action on here on Capitol Hill -- Alisyn and Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right. We will watch it. Ryan Nobles, thank you.

Let's turn now to this lawsuit from former President Trump. The January 6 committee calls it a move to delay and obstruct. Donald Trump has filed so many of these lawsuits.

Let's now bring in CNN editor at large and politics reporter Chris Cillizza.

All right, raise your hand if you're surprised.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACKWELL: Nobody.

(LAUGHTER)

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Wait. No.

BLACKWELL: OK.

CILLIZZA: I usually like to raise my hand because I'm polite, but not in this case, Victor.

OK. Let me start. We're going to go through a bunch of lawsuits Donald Trump has filed since he's been president, and then since he left the presidency, but I want to start with this number, 4,000. Donald Trump in his personal -- professional life, before he became president, so about 30 years, was involved in over 4,000 lawsuits. OK, that's 4,000 more lawsuits than I have been involved in so far.

OK. Now, let's go through some of these things. All right. This is the one that Ryan was just talking about. He is suing the January 6 committee over about 40 documents that he doesn't want to release, we assume tied to January 6, that the committee wants.

All right, that's one of many. All right, let's keep going. OK, you will remember this one, or maybe you want to refresh your memory. John Bolton, his former national security adviser, wrote a memoir about his time in office. Trump sued the publisher to try to delay that publication. That lawsuit failed, which, by the way, is another common thread through a lot of these lawsuits. They are either frivolous or they fail.

Let's keep going. Ah, good old CNN. I don't know if you remember this, but I do. Donald Trump threatened -- he had a cease-and-desist order that he threatened over a poll that showed Joe Biden beating Donald Trump during the 2020 election. Not really sure how legally -- I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure that legally shakes out.

But we were far from the only people that he sued. He threatened to sue "The New York Times." This was when "The New York Times" reported two women in 2016 said that Donald Trump had inappropriately touched them. He threatened to sue. That lawsuit never happened.

Let's keep going. He threatened to sue over the Philly election offices. So this was satellite offices that Philadelphia had set up for people to vote in the 2020 election. Because of COVID-19, obviously, there were more mail-in ballots. They were not allowing election officials of either party in due to COVID restrictions. Donald Trump threatened to sue. Yes. And then, of course, he

threatened to sue Robert Mueller. This was when he still had Twitter. He threatened to sue the special counsel over what he called a fraud investigation, a hoax investigation, which I will note led to a number of people going to jail and a number of people pleading guilty.

So the one thing that's not in here that I just want to remind people of too, more than a dozen women accused Donald Trump of inappropriate conduct in the run-up to the 2016 campaign. He said he would sue every single one of them once the election ended. He has sued none of them -- back to you guys.

CAMEROTA: That is really interesting context.

Chris Cillizza, thank you for all of that.

BLACKWELL: Thanks, Chris.

CAMEROTA: OK, so let's look at that legal fight ahead for the House committee.

Peter Shane is a law professor at Ohio State University and has co- authored several books on executive power and the separation of powers.

Mr. Shane, great to have you here.

So, as you know, President Trump is suing the House Select Committee. He doesn't -- he wants to basically keep his records from his time as president secret.

Here are some of the things that his lawyer objected to today or yesterday. Here it is. "For example, among the myriad other documents requested the committee has asked for all documents and communications relating in any way to remarks made by Donald Trump or any other persons on January 6, including Donald Trump's and other speakers' public remarks at the rally on the morning of January 6, and Donald Trump's Twitter messages throughout the day."

Aren't those really the heart of the matter? I mean, if he objects to that, those are the very things that the committee is studying.

PETER SHANE, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY: Well, first of all, it's great to be with you.

And, yes, it's clear that the point of the lawsuit is to prevent the committee from getting the documents that will shed light on the degree to which the former president was or was not involved in instigating the events that occurred on January 6.

[15:15:08]

It's going to be an uphill climb. just as Chris was describing for the prior lawsuits, because even though former presidents are allowed to offer claims of executive privilege with regard to documents or transcripts or tapes from their own administrations, it's not an absolute privilege. It's what they call a qualified privilege. It has to be balanced against other things.

And in this case, the complaint says that Congress doesn't have a legitimate interest in this investigation. This is an investigation into an attack on their own workplace. There's no court that's going to find that Congress has an insufficient interest in investigating the events of that attack.

BLACKWELL: Peter, one element we have learned just in the last few hours, that Steve Bannon's attorney has now asked the committee to hold off on this vote on criminal contempt referral that's supposed to happen this evening, they say because of this new filing. They want them to hold off for a week.

The committee denied that. But is that a substantive request? Or is that just par for the course, delay and try to push this off as far as possible?

SHANE: Well, I don't have any private access to their thinking.

But if you look at the response to -- that Mr. Bannon has made to this lawsuit and to this investigation and the way the president the former president is acting, in the context of the way President Trump and his associates have acted with regard to all prior congressional investigations, I would not be surprised if the presumption on the committee's part is that it's just delay.

And remember that the committee vote is just one step. The committee could always say to Mr. Bannon, look, the fact that we're voting today doesn't mean you're going to jail tomorrow. There will be time enough to continue to negotiate, but we're not staying off step one of the ladder just because it might eventually lead to steps two and three. We want to move forward.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

Speaking of going to jail, in a real courtroom, don't we sometimes see -- I don't think this is just on the courtroom dramas that I watch. Don't we sometimes see a noncompliant witness who is held in contempt of court marched off to a jail cell?

SHANE: We do see that.

But what you're talking about witnessing, though, is typically civil contempt. What Mr. Bannon is facing is a charge of criminal contempt that would carry criminal punishment. Civil contempt is -- ends when either the official session ends or the person decides to provide the information that's being demanded.

Withholding cooperation when you have been subpoenaed to Congress is a crime for which you can be punished even after the investigation is over. And it would require a trial.

BLACKWELL: All right, the vote is tonight. And we will see, as Ryan Nobles says, really not too many surprises that are expected from this vote from the committee.

Peter Shane, thank you so much for the insight.

SHANE: Oh, you're very welcome. Glad to talk with you.

CAMEROTA: Well, the CDC is eying a new method to keep kids in school even if they have been exposed to COVID.

So, we will speak to Education Secretary Miguel Cardona about this test-to-stay program next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:23:25]

BLACKWELL: The breaking news into CNN, Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas has tested positive for COVID.

A department spokeswoman says that Mayorkas, who is isolating at home, is fully vaccinated and is experiencing just some mild congestion. Now, he was scheduled to travel to Colombia with the secretary of state, Antony Blinken, and his COVID test today was part of a routine protocol ahead of that trip.

CAMEROTA: Well, the CDC is considering test-to-stay programs in schools, meaning that students who may have been exposed to COVID in school could still attend classes in person, rather than having to quarantine, as long as they test negative for the virus and exhibit no symptoms.

Joining us now to talk about this and more is Education Secretary Miguel Cardona.

Secretary, thanks so much for being here.

That would be a game-changer. For kids who have had some exposure in school to another kid who tests positive, but who themselves, they have not tested positive, being able to continue in school would be, I think, a huge relief for the kids and the parents. Is that going to happen?

And in hindsight, has making them quarantine at home for 10 days been a mistake over the past year?

MIGUEL CARDONA, U.S. EDUCATION SECRETARY: Well, thanks for having me, Alisyn.

And, first off, I send my best to my buddy Ali. Hope you're well.

And this is an example of what we want to see. We want to see an evolution of strategies and we want to make sure that we're providing the best opportunities for our students to learn in the classroom. And, no, I don't think it was a mistake for quarantining.

[15:25:00]

What we're finding is that when students are testing negative, they're able to be back in school, and we have to give them the best opportunity to learn in the classroom. But we also want to make sure we're not compromising safety.

We know enough now to know that, if a student was around someone that has COVID-19, but tests negative, that they should be able to have the opportunity to learn in the classroom, where they learn best.

CAMEROTA: Yes, the reason that I ask if it was a mistake is because we're also getting all of this new data points about mental health, and just how much kids have struggled over the past year-plus with isolation and with staying home.

I mean, look at these disturbing new findings. This comes to us from the American Academy of Pediatrics; 24 percent of kids aged 5 through 11 had E.R. visits, in other words, emergency visits, for mental health episodes, OK? Those are young kids.

And then for age -- teenagers, 12-to-17-year-olds, it's 31 percent. Even more disturbing, for girls aged 12 to 17, teenage girls, a 51 percent increase in the E.R. visits for suspected suicide attempts. That was just, I believe, in the six months at the beginning of the pandemic from March 2020 to October 2020.

And so it really has taken a toll on kids.

CARDONA: It really has. And I appreciate this being the topic of conversation across the country, that our students are in need right now.

And those data show the impact of the pandemic on our students, not only academically, which is where we tend to focus, but on their social and emotional well-being, on their need for accessing mental health support.

So we're hopeful that districts and states across the country are utilizing those ARP dollars to double down on mental health support for our students. They have suffered a lot. And as we reopen our schools, we must reimagine to make sure that social-emotional well- being is a part of the programming and that we provide our educators with training on how to best support our students.

It's so important that we think about this as we reopen our schools.

CAMEROTA: Obviously, it has affected everybody's mental health.

I just want to show you some video from this month. This is a Beverly Hills school. This was like walk your kid to school day. And this group of angry parents who don't want masks at the school are attacking a group of parents -- confronting them, I should say, confronting a group of parents who do want their kids masked at school.

So watch this moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's going to be traumatized if you put that mask on him and you don't let him breathe through it. You're traumatizing...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's my choice. That's my choice. You better respect my choice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Masking children is child abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mask your child, you're a child abuser.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You should choose what goes on your child's face and in your child's body. This is rape. This is rape. They're trying to rape our children with this poison.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Secretary, I don't know if you can hear some of that rhetoric, but, basically, that masking your child is child abuse. One parent was saying masking your child is rape was what they were also saying.

I mean, do you think that masking kids has affected mental health?

CARDONA: You know, that video just demonstrates how high emotions are, and how hard our educators are working to protect students and staff, despite having -- being threatened or being yelled at.

I do believe -- I'm going to pick you first as a father. My own children, the pandemic, them being away from school did affect their ability to learn. And I can tell you right now, Alisyn, that they're back, and they're happy, and they're thriving because they're back.

Yes, they have to wear masks, but that's just a small compromise for being able to be with your friends and with your teachers in person. And I can tell you, in those places where mitigation strategies were not taken as seriously, where the vaccination rates are lower, there are more students at home, disrupted learning, because they're not doing what they can do to prevent the spread of the virus.

So, believe me, I want masks off too. But at this point, it's a small compromise to allow for in person learning. And our students suffered enough. We really need to think about our students here, not the adults.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

But what do you think the answer is for how many angry parents we're seeing out there?

CARDONA: I think we need to continue to communicate what we know works.

And let's lean on the science. It's gotten us to this point. It's gotten us to talk about letting students test to stay. We are going to get through this together.

And I really want to make sure that I'm talking to all families. We need to come together for our students. Our country, we're going to get through this pandemic together, and our schools are going to be places that are communities for all families.

I really want to make sure that, as we reopen our schools, we focus on building community and stopping that division that we -- that you showed me there and that we see in different parts of our country.

Schools unite folks. Education unites our country.