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White House Scrambles on Several Issues as Sinema Opposes Tax Hikes; Attorney General Garland Faces Contentious Hearing Before House Panel; Brian Laundrie's Parents Involved in Discovery of Human Remains. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 21, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: A good Thursday morning to you, I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

This morning, President Biden striking an optimistic tone ahead of tonight's CNN town hall event where he is expected to push his ambitious, yet unfinished agenda, while taking questions about that proposal. Right now, Biden is working to bridge the ongoing divide within his own party amid a political tug of war. Senators Manchin and Sinema, they are holding out for their priorities, and both of them do have very different sticking points as they question in particular how to pay for this deal.

HILL: That they do. The pay-for is a big focus here, so is the final price tag. But what about what's actually in that bill? As we look at all of this, it's important to remember that these negotiations could also impact the $1.2 trillion bipartisan infrastructure bill. Despite all the uncertainty, Progressive Caucus Chair Pramila Jayapal says the talks are going well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): I know he's working very hard with Senators Sinema and Manchin and we are going to get this done because it is really important. And let me just say that this is a good thing that's happening right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So, soon, we do expect to hear from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. We're going to monitor that. We'll bring you any developments from that press conference.

Let's begin this morning though with CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju. He is on Capitol Hill this morning with the very latest for us.

So, how much of this focus today is on Senator Sinema? MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A significant amount, in large part because of how to pay for this package. Remember, they have already come down about $2 trillion or so, $3.5 trillion was the Democratic proposal that had been proposed in the House. That's going nowhere. They have dropped that price tag probably around $2 trillion, probably less than $2 trillion, maybe between 1.7 to $1.9 trillion because in large part because of Senator Sinema, as well as Senator Joe Manchin. Both of them wanted to reduce the price tag.

Now, Sinema and Manchin have different concerns. Manchin has issues about how the climate change provisions will be dealt with. He's also got concerns about the paid family leave provisions. Initially, Democrats wanted 12 weeks of paid leave. That's going to be probably down to four right now. Those negotiations are ongoing, how to deal with the child tax credit.

But there is a back-and-forth going on with Manchin and Democratic senators, Democratic House members. Sinema is different. She is having conversations strictly with the White House. That's leaving a lot of Democrats frustrated on Capitol Hill because they don't know where she stands. And she is making very clear that she is opposed to raising corporate taxes on high earners. That is something she has conveyed to White House officials over the last several weeks and that remains her position today.

And that is a big problem for the Democrats about how to finance this plan because it was expected to be financed in large part on those increased tax rates.

Now, they're now looking for different ways to pay for this program, potentially putting on new taxes on billionaires, a corporate minimum tax, a tax on stock buybacks, other issues like that. But it's unclear exactly how Senator Sinema will come down but that's what's leading to a lot of Democrats to say, why is she not getting behind something, given her opposition to the 2007 GOP tax law that cut corporate taxes and that everybody on Capitol Hill on the Democratic side has been opposed to.

There are questions of that as she is facing pressure from liberals, including back home and facing new advertising campaigns from at least some former advisers who have come after her saying that she needs to change her position on a range of issues.

Now, will this position actually change her mind? That is the big question. But it's also significant, guys, because, as you know, they need all 50 Democrats, Kyrsten Sinema, Joe Manchin, Bernie Sanders and the like to get behind the bill to get it out of the Senate. And never mind that $1.2 trillion infrastructure plan that is still awaiting action in the House. So, big questions remain as Democrats try to get a deal on the larger plan this week. Guys?

HILL: Yes, that's for sure. Manu Raju, I appreciate the reporting, as always. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yes, big questions remain, evergreen statement these days. Joining us to talk about all of this, CNN Senior Political Analyst David Gergen, former presidential adviser to Nixon, Ford, and Reagan. David, always good to have you on.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Thanks, Jim. It's good to be here.

SCIUTTO: All right. So, you've seen and witnessed and been involved with your share of White House negotiations with the Hill on major legislation. I wonder, do you see -- we were talking all about Manchin's sort of sticking points, now we're talking about Sinema's. Do you see these as part of a negotiation, trying to the best deal possible, or a potential deal-breaker?

GERGEN: Well, I think it can be both. A lot depends on where you sit in this thing. If you're a progressive, you think -- you're very disappointed and you feel betrayed to some extent. But if you're a moderate, then you feel like we haven't done enough.

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So, so much depends.

But he has some important things to get done here now in terms of public opinion. He has to stop the wrangling in the Democratic Party and bring people together very soon. The longer this goes on, the weaker the president looks. And the question becomes who -- can he govern the country. I think that's -- and he needs to come in with a package, Erica and Jim, that's big enough that he can convince the country he got something out of it, it's good for the country.

The other thing, though, is in parallel with that, he has to change the media story about what's happening here. In recent days, the story has been about what's being cut. You know, Democrats cutting this, Democrats cutting that, which was precisely the opposite of what he wants, which is Democrats beefing up, Democrats energizing these programs. And until he can get that -- turn that corner, it's going to be hard to swing the public behind him.

HILL: Why -- I mean, David, to that point, this is something that we've talked about on the air but Jim and I have had a number of conversations about this. Why do you think the messaging has been so off from the beginning? To your point from the very beginning, Democrats could have been saying, look at all of the reasons this could be great for you instead of we can't agree on a big number.

GERGEN: Right. Look, I totally agree and I think it's become sort of symptomatic now in this White House. They frequently have good policies, but they screw it up with the messaging and it doesn't come out looking that way.

There was a good argument to be made on Afghanistan about trying to shut it down and so forth and instead it came out as chaos and sent a wrong message. All the messaging about the pandemic and what you should take and what you shouldn't take has become so confusing that no one knows quite what to believe they should do and people are going off on their own to make those decisions. That again was a messaging failure in my judgment. And they have had some of the same problems here.

I'm a little mystified because he does have a good team around him, he's got some real pros around him in the White House. But I just -- I don't understand why they can't sort of corral people and get them on the same page.

Republicans turn out -- for all you may say bad things about Republican policies, they turn out and they can put things together pretty well.

SCIUTTO: Results matter, right, and we are a good 11 months from the midterms. That said, I mean, reading the tea leaves, you have a lot of senior Democrats deciding it ain't going to be good for us in 2022 and just straight up leaving Congress at this point.

GERGEN: Right.

SCIUTTO: Is that enough time, right? Let's assume, by the way, assume, and that's a big assumption, that they get something through in the next couple of weeks. Is it enough to turn that messaging around?

GERGEN: That's a really good question, Jim. I do think that right now one of the things that's scaring people in the Democratic Party and some senior people are leaving is the president's poll numbers have dropped down to around 43 percent overall approval. The conventional wisdom is if the president is not above 50 percent going into a midterm, you lose seats, and a considerable number of seats. So that is -- that's why it's important for all sorts of reasons, for the White House now to rally the country behind what they're doing here on this economic and social plan.

One of the areas they have got to look to is climate. The meeting in Glasgow is just around the corner next week. It's a hugely important international meeting. Many scientists say it could be the last chance to really have a significant impact and to keep climate under control. The president's climate program apparently has been gutted, and they're going to rely on -- but they come back and say, well, we'll do it through executive orders, it will be okay. Well, if you could do it through executive orders, why put it in the bill? Why not go ahead and do it? Why hasn't it been done last week, last month?

SCIUTTO: Yes, he's going to have a difficult message to sell at COP26 when the president's over there for climate negotiations following G20. David Gergen, always good to have you on.

GERGEN: Thank you. Good to be here.

SCIUTTO: President Biden, he'll take questions from the American people in a CNN exclusive. Anderson Cooper moderates a CNN presidential town hall starting tonight at 8:00 Eastern Time.

Right now, Attorney General Merrick Garland is about to answer questions from the House Judiciary Committee for the first time. It is expected to be a contentious hearing as lawmakers will likely press him on the enforcement of subpoenas from the January 6 committee, as well as the Capital riot, voting rights, migrants at the southern border and the ongoing abortion ban in Texas.

HILL: CNN Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider joining us live from Washington.

So, as Jim pointed out, expect it to get contentious. I think we're all waiting for a little bit of that. We also have a sense of what Merrick Garland is going to say going into this.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And the interesting thing about this is this is a standard oversight hearing.

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This is a chance for committee members on the Judiciary Committee to question the attorney general about what's happening at the Department of Justice. And you can bet that the attorney general is going to do all he can to steer it to a conversation about what the Department of Justice has done in his seven months at the top and what it will continue to do.

In his opening statement, he talks specifically about always adhering to the rule of law. This is a message that we've heard from the attorney general repeatedly, whether it was when he was officially nominated by President Biden, whether it was at his confirmation hearing, and ever since. This is something that the attorney general will hit right off the top in his opening remarks to lawmakers there.

But he'll also talk about the work that the Department of Justice has done during his relatively short, at this point, tenure. He'll talk about the focus on civil rights. He'll also talk about combating cyber crime and foreign and domestic terrorism. He will touch, according to his opening remarks, on January 6th. And he really will say that he respects and appreciates and stands by the work that prosecutors across the country have done in prosecuting at this point more than 600 defendants who were involved in the Capitol insurrection.

So, the attorney general, though, will likely not comment on this expected criminal referral of Steve Bannon. We see the attorney general right there. He should be taking questions, giving his opening statement very shortly. But you can bet that the message we'll hear from Attorney General Garland is what we've heard from his Department of Justice spokesperson, what we've heard from the U.S. attorney in Washington about this Steve Bannon on criminal referral. They have repeatedly said that they will stick to the facts and the law and make an independent decision just completely clear of politics, guys.

HILL: We will be watching for all of that. Things set to get under way pretty quickly. Jessica Schneider, I appreciate it.

Well, Texas has until noon today, so just under two hours from now, to respond to the Justice Department's request urging the Supreme Court to temporarily block that state's law which bans nearly all abortions.

SCIUTTO: The DOJ says the law is clearly unconstitutional. They're not alone in that.

CNN's Ariane de Vogue joins us now. I mean, an amazing fact of this whole story is that basically Roe v. Wade is not operating in Texas right now since this decision has been made. What is likely to happen here now? Because the Supreme Court really gets a chance to intervene.

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Well, Merrick Garland has put the Supreme Court in a place it hates to be, in the center of the political spotlight looking at this law again. And what he's basically asking them is he's saying block the law now, let these abortions continue while this appeals process plays out.

And if the Supreme Court agrees this time, maybe that means there's some sentiment that the DOJ is going to ultimately prevail here. But Garland also made a much bigger ask. He said, take this case up now, have oral arguments, put it on your docket and you decide on whether or not that's constitutional, because already the court is hearing this Mississippi case in December that asks it to overturn Roe v. Wade. So, in a sense, add this to the pile.

If the Supreme Court, Jim, and this is so important, if it denies both of those requests, it really sends a signal that maybe there are some of the justices on the Supreme Court in that Mississippi case who are ready to overturn Roe because if they overturn Roe in that case, the Texas case is moot.

SCIUTTO: Which justice are you watching in particular here, justice or justices?

DE VOGUE: Well, you've just got to look at the Trump nominees and you have to see those three and what they have added to the court since 2017, because you know where Clarence Thomas stands. He has been the only one who's come forward and said, look, Roe was wrongly decided. So, the question is how much momentum does that draw.

SCIUTTO: Wow, this is a big moment we know you're going to be watching closely. Ariane de Vogue, thanks very much.

Still this hour we are live in Florida where search crews are still on the scene at a nature preserve where Brian Laundrie's belongings but also we should note unidentified human remains were found yesterday. What the medical examiner is saying and what the FBI is looking for in that new evidence, next.

HILL: Plus, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi speaking this hour. Will President Biden's economic bill be the working class tax cut that has been promised? We're joined by Congressman Tim Ryan.

And today, the CDC expected to green light Moderna and Johnson & Johnson's booster shots. What that means for when and which second or third shot you may get, later.

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[10:15:00] HILL: Right now, search crews are back at a Florida nature reserve after finding human remains along with a backpack and a notebook belonging to Gabby Petito's fiance, Brian Laundrie.

SCIUTTO: Yes. This news comes after Laundrie's parents went to search the area themselves and actually discovered some of those items.

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STEVE BERTOLINO, LAUNDRIE FAMILY ATTORNEY (voice over): IT is my understanding that they were followed closely by the two law enforcement personnel, and when I say closely, certainly within eye shot.

At some point, Chris locates what's called a dry bag.

They looked at the contents of the bag. At that time, law enforcement officers showed them a picture on the phone of a backpack that law enforcement had located also nearby and also some distance off the trail.

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At that point, the Laundries were notified that there's also remains near the backpack and they were asked to leave the preserve.

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SCIUTTO: CNN Correspondent Nick Valencia is live from North Port, Florida, and beyond a remarkable idea of the parents in effect taking part in the search and handling things found in the search. What do we know about where this search stands?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it has been a very active morning here outside of -- one of the entrance of the Carlton Reserve. In fact, just in the last ten minutes, we saw the Lee County sheriff go in there along with other law enforcement officials. They told us that later today -- they didn't say exactly what time, but later today there will be a statement on camera from officials.

We just also put our CNN drone up in the air and saw a handful of local law enforcement as well as what we believe to be an FBI response team inside the reserve. We don't know exactly what they're doing but we can tell you that we're about two or three miles away from where that grim discovery was made of the partial human remains. Those remains, according to the family attorney, Steve Bertolino, in all likelihood and probability, belong to Brian Laundrie.

There are a lot of questions this morning as to why the parents were a part of this search yesterday. And we're told by the family attorney that they indicated at some point Tuesday night to the FBI as well as local law enforcement their intent on coming back to search this area. This park had been closed for weeks to the public and just opened up yesterday. That's why, according to the family attorney, those parents of Brian Laundrie decided to come back into this park. It's about a 24,000 acre park that has been scoured by the FBI as well as a handful of agencies on that exhaustive manhunt for Brian Laundrie, a manhunt that may have come to an end with that grim discovery. But as I mentioned, a lot of questions because of the silence of Brian Laundrie's parents, that silence speaking volumes to Gabby Petito's parents who say that they want answers.

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NICOLE SCHMIDT, GABBY PETITO'S MOTHER: I believe they know probably if not everything, they know most of the information. I would love to just face to face ask why are you doing this. Just tell me the truth.

JIM SCHMIDT, GABBY PETITO'S STEPFATHER: We want vengeance --

N. SCHMIDT: And justice.

J. SCHMIDT: -- and justice, and for him to pay for his crimes and to spend it in a prison for the rest of his life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: The Laundrie family attorney saying that he instructed the Laundrie parents not to speak to the media and that more information will come out at the appropriate time. But they really are the focus not just for the public but it seems for questions the investigators have as to what happened and where Brian Laundrie was these last weeks. Jim, Erica?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Nick Valencia, thanks so much.

HILL: Joining us now to discuss, former Senior FBI Profiler and former FBI Special Agent Mary Ellen O'Toole. Mary Ellen, good to see you this morning.

As Nick pointed out, there are a lot of questions this morning, and some of what we've learned and some of what has transpired in the last 24 hours I think really leaves you scratching your head, just the way that this unfolded. The attorney for the Laundries saying last night that, look, they went to this area first. It was, in his words, happenstance that they stumbled upon these items.

Based on your experience, is there anything in the information that we've been given in the timeline of events that occurred this week that raises significant questions for you?

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER SENIOR FBI PROFILER: I would say based on my experience in cases and going to crime scenes that the idea of family members participating in a search and then being the ones to actually find the evidence and then actually picking up the evidence or some of it, taking it over to law enforcement, is really quite unusual.

And the problem with that is that, for example, just picking up one item of evidence and walking over and giving it to a police officer, you've ruined physical evidence on that item. And you don't want to do that whatsoever.

So now law enforcement has to go back and take a look at all the items of evidence that they found at that scene. Theoretically, all that evidence should have been left there at about the same time. So, they'll go back and take a look to see and to make sure that everything does look like it's been there for a while. On the other hand, if there are items of evidence that look relatively clean, then they're going to have to take a different direction.

HILL: They'll also be looking at not just the items, but also the remains, which have not yet been identified, as we know. But they'll be looking, I would imagine, to see if both the remains and the items there date to the same time period, correct?

O'TOOLE: They will. It will be difficult.

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Because the environment and the animal predation and so forth will have impacted the remains and other items of evidence differently, but they'll still be able to get a sense of how long the human remains were there, how long the physical evidence was there. So that does -- I mean, that becomes quite important in a case like this.

HILL: So, we're waiting on that positive identification. Two-part question, how quickly could we get the identification on those remains? And then number two, do you think we'll also learn the manner of death?

O'TOOLE: So, the first most important identification is whether or not those are the remains of Brian Laundrie. And then that should come depending on the condition of the remains. That could be challenging or it could come relatively quickly.

Second is the manner of death, and that's very important, which is going to be suicide, homicide, accidental and so forth. And that may be even -- again, it may be more challenging for the medical examiner because the remains appear to have been out there for some time. And in that area where you have the weather, you have water, you have animals, insects and so forth, they can do a lot of damage to human remains. So, depending on what that damage is, identifying the manner of death could take a lot longer.

HILL: There's also in addition to -- we've talked a lot about the dry bag, we know about the human remains, but there's also this notebook that was reportedly found, could offer some insight, but it also raises questions of its own, doesn't it?

O'TOOLE: It really does, because you have to look at the content, if they can determine what the content is, if they can see what the entries are, if it's a narrative, if it's musings, they still have to confirm that that handwriting is that of Brian Laundrie. You can't just assume that he wrote that. So that would be number one.

And then number two, once you make that determination, it has to be considered that if he did make those entries into a notebook, even if it's relative to what he did to Gabby or what he's suspected of doing to Gabby, that's still self-reported information, which means it's pretty unreliable because he could give his opinion, he could give this is why it happened. I didn't cause it, she caused it. This is what is going on. So, I think knowing that he wrote it is the first step. And then the second step is what did he write and what perspective has he taken on those entries.

HILL: Mary Ellen O'Toole, great to have your expertise this morning. Thank you.

O'TOOLE: Thank you.

HILL: Still ahead this morning, Pfizer announcing some encouraging new efficacy results when it comes to booster shots for its COVID vaccine, this as the CDC meeting to potentially approve additional boosters today.

Also, not the only thing we're keeping an eye on or the only thing you should watch. Here's a closer look at what to watch today.

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