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Now, Biden Meeting with Democrats on Capitol Hill Before Heading to Europe; Sheriff Says, Focus of Investigation on Rust Assistant Director and Armorer. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 28, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: A very good Thursday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto live today in Rome.

ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Erica Hill in New York.

At this moment, President Biden is in a high-stakes meeting with House Democrats on Capitol Hill. He's there to lay out in detail the latest framework for his social safety net package. His mission at the meeting this morning, he needs to get his full caucus on board here. Of course, he needs progressives especially to get on board so that they can support that bipartisan infrastructure bill. And he wants them to be able to do that with just this framework, an agreement to a framework on that larger spending package.

Here he is arriving at the Capitol a short time ago.

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REPORTER: Mr. President, what's your message to progressives who don't trust Manchin and Sinema?

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: It's a good day.

REPORTER: Do you think you have enough of a framework to get progressives to support the infrastructure bill?

BIDEN: Yes.

REPORTER: Is Bernie Sanders on board, sir?

BIDEN: Everybody's on board. You're on board, aren't you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The president joking there everybody's on board, but as we know, Jim, there are still a lot of questions. You heard some from Senator Markey just a short time ago. A lot of questions this morning as he is selling that, we'll continue to keep an eye on it.

But for now, we'll send it over to you in Rome, Jim.

SCIUTTO: That's right. The president, of course, delayed his departure for Rome to go to the Hill, try to get members of his own party on board. In a matter of hours, he will arrive in Italy for his first G20 summit as commander-in-chief and the first time in two years, in fact, the G20 leaders have met face-to-face. But the president still an open question, does he arrive with large portions of his economic agenda in place? A big piece of that, of course, the climate agreement, which is crucial not just to the G20 summit but the U.N. climate summit, which will follow immediately in Scotland. We'll bring you more from Rome in just a moment.

Erica?

HILL: Looking forward to that. CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju meantime on Capitol Hill this morning. CNN's John Harwood is at the White House.

So, Manu, let's start with you. This meeting, the full Democratic Caucus in there, no phones, we're told, so everybody, of course, wants some details. What were you hearing from lawmakers heading into the meeting?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'm hearing a little bit about both heading into the meeting and out of the meeting. And I just tell you, I talked to a couple member who just left, who told me what Joe Biden has been doing for close to an hour is going through the proposal, this overall framework in which he's trying to get Congress behind, explaining why he believes it's a transformational proposal, why Democrats should get behind it, not just the larger plan but also the infrastructure bill, that separate $1.2 trillion bill that's been waiting action in the house for months.

But progressives have threatened to block that bill because they want that actual larger bill, the expansion of social safety net plan, to actually advance, to pass the House at the same time as that infrastructure bill passes the House. They believe that withholding their support is leverage to force moderates behind that larger bill.

Now, what the Democratic leaders are trying to do is convince the progressives to change their mind, and that is the challenge for Joe Biden right now behind closed doors, urging his caucus to get behind this, saying they need to pass this today.

Now, the question is how any of these progressives will react to this. Going into the meeting, they made very clear they were not going to change their mind. They believe that it doesn't make sense for them to simply vote yes on that infrastructure bill, which would pump money into roads, bridges, broadband, waterways, because they say that this larger deal is a general outline and needs to have detailed legislative text which could take some time to come out, and they need to have more commitments from those two moderate senators, Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, have them get behind that, ensure they ultimately vote for that plan and send it into law.

Now, there are also some key concessions that Joe Biden has had to make to get this bill together. From what I've heard from members coming out, he has not come through those concessions, so we'll see how they react when they get a chance to study more of this. But a major moment for the president trying to get his agenda through, his caucus is not yet in line. Will they change their minds? That's going to be the big question as we talk to members in the next couple of minutes here, guys.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. We look forward to more of that, as we know you're going to do your best to get that comment.

John, when we look at what's happening is, as Manu pointed out, one of the things we've heard consistently is progressives need a firm commitment from Manchin and Sinema. I mean, we heard from Senator Dick Durbin a short time ago after the meeting started. He said I wish I could say yes but there's a great deal of uncertainty within the caucus. He was asked if he's confident all 50 Democrats in the Senate are on board, he couldn't say yes.

I mean, how does all of that play into what the president was expected to say in the meeting this morning, John?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erica, nobody can say yes to that question about Manchin and Sinema given how much they have indulged the veto power they have given the fact that Democrats have zero margin for error, must hold all 50 senators. They have not subsumed their own interest to those of the Democratic team, but Joe Biden is rolling the dice, saying this is what we've got.

[10:05:06]

He's trying to convey confidence to Democrats that they are going to go along. And he's doing it by trying to emphasize what is in this bill.

Everybody has been talking about what has come out since his original request of $3.5 trillion. They've lost things like two years of free community college. They've lost paid leave from the plan. That's been a long-standing Democratic priority. On the pay-for side, they lost this 11th-hour attempt to get a billionaires' tax in, they've lost an attempt to raise the corporate and individual marginal tax rates.

On the other hand, there is a whole lot of Democratic priority in this bill. You've got expanded child care subsidies, you've got two years of universal pre-K, you've got expanded subsidies for Obamacare, child tax credit, $500 million for climate change, housing money in addition to that.

So, Democrats will advance their priorities in a major way if they can pass this. And what the president is trying to do is say, we've taken it as far as we can, I'm confident that Manchin and Sinema will be there. House Democratic Caucus, trust me, we're going to get this done.

It doesn't mean they have to pass that infrastructure bill today, but the president would like to see that happen. Democratic leaders are gambling that they might be able to make it happen. But as Manu indicated, there's still a burden of persuasion that is falling on the president, and he's doing his best right now.

HILL: John Harwood, Manu Raju, I appreciate the reporting, as always.

Jim?

SCIUTTO: Well, Erica, after the president addresses the nation, an update on his domestic agenda, he'll board Air Force One for the long flight across the Atlantic here to Rome for his first G20 meeting as commander-in-chief with a lot of crucial issues facing world leaders, including climate change.

Joining me now, CNN Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins, who's also in Rome. And also in Rome with me, Nic Robertson, our International Editor.

Kaitlan, if I could begin with you, the president making, really, I mean, you might even call it a last-ditch effort for large portions of his domestic agenda. How will the performance there, his delivery there, affect his impact here, affect the success of his meetings here in Rome for G20 and later in Scotland for the climate summit?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think one of the biggest reasons the president wants to get this done is obviously because he is not only going to meet with world leaders in Rome but also when he goes to that major climate summit to talk about climate change. And he wants to -- should be able to say here, look at how the U.S. is committing to push back and to fight climate change, here are the measures we're going to take, including this $550 billion that he has in this framework that he just unveiled to these House Democrats and saying that this is the example that we are setting and now we want other countries to follow in the United States' lead.

And so, of course, that argument is a lot harder to make if there is no agreement on this framework by then. And so the White House had been banking on that, which is why you're seeing the president leave several hours later than he was expected to as they were trying to hammer out this last-minute negotiation on this deal and try to get that agreement that Manu was talking about that, of course, requires those progressives to get on board and trust that Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema, those more moderate members are going to agree to what the framework is right now.

And so that's really the biggest component of this when it comes to the president wanting to secure this before he boards the plane. It is something that Democratic leaders clearly want for president as well. You saw him walking in with Chuck Schumer, with Nancy Pelosi as he was talking into this meeting, showing really a kind of show of force going into that.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Will he hand in Rome empty-handed? It's an open question at this point. Nic, it has not been a good few months for the president, for the country, on the international stage, including with its allies. You had a summary withdrawal from Afghanistan, which upset U.S. allies. You had an open disagreement with France over this nuclear deal with Australia. Does President Biden arrive here in Europe for the G20 a diminished U.S. president? NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, it's very simple answer to that. And, yes, to have better support from within his own party, within the Democrats for this financial bill that would bring him here with something really in hand to speak about, about climate, about big commitments, and that would lead the world. Yes, that would help.

But the diminishment exists, and that is that the world sees the United States now and President Biden as following sort of the more isolationist policies of President Trump that they wanted him to fix are not getting -- and this is a president with a huge amount of foreign policy experience, not sort of delivering the foreign policy stage that they would want.

That chaos in Afghanistan, this rift with Macron, he'll meet with Macron here. Macron has already spoke with the Australian prime minister, Scott Morrison, and said he needs to see tangible action if there is going to be proper cooperation in the Indo-Pacific region.

So, President Biden has got a lot of build back to do on these past few months.

[10:10:02]

But the bigger reality, of course, and I'm sure you see this in Washington, too, is that the international community, the United States' allies, are beginning to see even beyond this president that there's a potential for another Republican coming back, and they see the difficulties that even a domestic president has.

SCIUTTO (voice over): Perhaps a return of Trump. Let's listen in. This is President Biden emerging from the meeting on Capitol Hill.

Kaitlan, it didn't seem that the president said much as questions were shouted to him there. But discuss for a moment the difficulty of the timing, right? He wants to get the framework before he hops on Air Force One. But he has this deadline. He has to be here for the G20. By the way, he's meeting the pope tomorrow before that meeting. And then you have COP26 in Scotland. Is that pressure point proving an obstacle, right, that perhaps he didn't have enough time to get the deal across the finish line before traveling to Europe?

COLLINS: And the White House had actually an interesting answer about that yesterday when they were asked, why didn't we see this kind of movement and momentum in the weeks before, knowing that this trip was coming up, knowing for months that this is something that the president wanted to see done? Why is it happening so last minute? And they talked about the effectiveness of timelines like this one that it has on lawmakers. And, of course, there is the other timeline when it comes to the transportation bill expiring on October 31st. That isn't something that you've heard Democrats talk about as well. And so I think that's a factor into this.

But, of course, delaying this trip by several hours, you can't really keep the pope waiting. But having the president come out and talk about what this is going to look like, which he is going to do at the White House in a few minutes. He didn't say much there as he was leaving Capitol Hill, but he is going to be talking about this at the White House. And so we'll likely hear the argument that he made behind closed doors to Democrats publicly before he does board the plane.

And so that's just the big question here, what they're going to say and how they're going to respond and whether or not they're going to get on board with this idea.

SCIUTTO: Nic, there is a lot on the agenda here, certainly climate for the G20, and then, of course, later in Scotland, but other issues, dealing with the international supply chain crisis, dealing with the continuing effects of the pandemic, which we just saw really weighed on U.S. economic growth in the most recent quarter here. What is success for Biden but for the G20 summit?

ROBERTSON: Success for the G20 summit would be able to show that they're following through on some of the commitments they made at the last G20, which was to make sure that the world stayed together in lock step, that developing nations were going to be able to get the same access to COVID vaccines, to diagnostics, to all of these things.

And the reality is the rollout hasn't been as fast in developing nations. We in the United States and the United Kingdom and Europe are talking about booster vaccines, whereas many citizens of many African nations and other countries in the world have not got that.

SCIUTTO: Stay there one moment because we're going to go back to Capitol Hill for a moment as lawmakers emerge from this meeting with the president. Let's listen in and hear what they're saying.

REPORTER: Mr. President, are you going to have a bill in hand? What did you tell the Democratic senators? What did you tell the Democrats?

SCIUTTO: Okay. One more try there at President Joe Biden to see if he would give an update. Did he get the commitments he was looking for on Capitol Hill from, mind you, members of his own party as they try to push these economic priorities across the finish line?

Kaitlan, do we know at this point where things stand because it seems to change every few minutes? The White House this morning believed they had a deal. Then you started to hear public comments from lawmakers that, no, they're not ready. And I spoke to Senator Ed Markey just a few minutes ago, and he said, hey, we can wait, don't have to do it before G20. What's the reality?

COLLINS: Yes. But, Jim, it does seem we're getting some movement here because we are hearing from democrats who are saying that the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, has asked for a vote on that infrastructure bill today. Of course, that would mean that these progressives who previously have said they would not vote for that infrastructure bill, which has already passed the Senate, they would not vote for it unless they saw a vote in the Senate on this bigger package, that the framework of the president just laid out for, or at least a more concrete agreement.

And we even heard from progressives this morning saying they'd actually like to see the legislative text here, which, of course, we know the White House says they don't have yet.

SCIUTTO: This is news, Pelosi saying possible scheduling of a vote today.

Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill. Manu, you know better than me, Nancy Pelosi is an expert vote counter. Can we assume that she would not hold the vote if she did not believe she had the votes?

RAJU: Well, we don't know if they're actually going to have the vote.

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Even though she wants the vote today, she's said that in the past about moving forward on the infrastructure bill, only to pull back and not move forward. So, it's unclear.

Now, I'm told in this meeting Biden himself did not say that the vote should be today. He left that for Pelosi to make that announcement, if she wants to have that vote today. He made the pitch. He argued why this is necessary, why both bills, in his view, is necessary, I'm told.

And he also didn't say that Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are endorsing this framework yet. He said they are, quote, within inches. Now, that is according to a congressman who I just spoke to leaving this room. So, they're within inches of getting behind this plan.

So, it's unclear exactly whether that's going to persuade progressives who, I was told, up to 55 progressives were threatening to vote against the bill, that infrastructure bill today, because that larger economic package is not moving at the same time. And I'm also told Bernie Sanders backs the House progressives' position on this.

So, did Joe Biden change any minds here is really unclear at the moment, but he talked for some time. It's unclear if he answered any questions. It's also unclear if he allayed any concerns. He didn't get into the details about the concessions they made and implored (ph) the caucus to get behind something that he believes is essential for the party and for the country. Jim?

SCIUTTO: We'll see. Is this vote today a hope or a reality? Manu Raju on the Hill, thanks very much, also Nic Robertson here with me in Rome, Kaitlan Collins. Much more to report in the coming hour as we prepare for the G20 in Rome. Meanwhile, Erica, back to you in New York.

HILL: Jim, thanks. Just ahead, the focus of the investigation into Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins' death has now narrowed down to two Rust crew members, who officials are looking at today and what could prompt criminal charges. We'll take a look at that, just ahead.

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HILL: New this morning, the sheriff in Santa Fe, New Mexico, says the investigation into that deadly shooting on the set of the Alec Baldwin movie Rust is now focused on two people, the film's assistant director, David Halls, and the armorer on set, Hannah Gutierrez. He notes though that while the investigation is focused on those two, no one is cleared here, including Baldwin himself.

Meantime, the D.A. telling CNN in the investigation they're really focusing in on how that bullet got into the gun.

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MARY CARMACK-ALTWIES, DISTRICT ATTORNEY OF SANTA FE, NEW MEXICO: It's a terrible tragedy. We don't know how those live rounds got there. And I think that that will probably end up being kind of the linchpin for whether a decision is made about charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining me now, Entertainment Industry Attorney Richard Charnley. He's a partner at Charnley Rian LLP. It's good to have you with us this morning.

So, when we look at what we do know, the A.D., according to the affidavit, said he should have checked the firearm but didn't, couldn't remember whether the armorer had spun the drum, which, of course, raises questions about potential criminal liability. This is how the D.A. described what the standard is for culpability in New Mexico. Take a listen.

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CARMACK-ALTWIES: Our standard for involuntary manslaughter, which is our lowest level of homicide, whether it's intentional or unintentional, is a willful disregard for the safety of others. And that key word is willful. So that almost equates to a reckless standard, which is higher than negligence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Does that, you think, open David Halls up to criminal liability?

RICHARD CHARNLEY, ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY ATTORNEY: Let me start by say I've been doing this many, many years, and our hearts and thoughts and prayers go out to the families involved here, the Hutchins family particularly and also Mr. Souza. This is a terrible event. The film industry is close-knit. They rely upon each other all the time. And this was an awful thing to happen.

So, let me talk about criminal liability versus civil liability to a point in what the D.A. said. We know out on that set what happened. The sheriff made it clear yesterday, they know what happened. What they don't know, and the D.A. used the term how, but what they don't know is why it happened. And so when the D.A. talks about things like callous disregard and things of that nature, that's what this investigation is going to focus on. Callous disregard would be something like auto racing in a residential area 110 miles an hour when you go out of control and kill an innocent bystander. Callous disregard might be considered leaving a child in a locked car on a hot day. Those are examples of criminal callous disregard. Nobody intends anybody to get hurt, but they are not exhibiting any regard for human life, and that's callous disregard.

So, in focusing on the why here, that's what the D.A. is going to be doing, that's what the sheriffs are going to be doing, and they will eventually come to a conclusion, why did this happen. And once they do that, they'll be able to target the people who are potentially liable for criminal prosecution.

HILL: So, in terms of what the situation was like on the set, right, we do know that there were concerns raised about safety issues, and then I also found really interesting some of what we heard from one of the actors who described what he was witnessing and what he saw even from veteran actors.

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Take a listen.

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IAN A. HUDSON, RUST ACTOR: As a new actor, I don't want to cause trouble, I don't want to, you know, make an issue about things. I just want to do as well as I can and get the footage that they want. So, I held my tongue for a lot of it. But some of the other actors who had worked on a lot more sets than I have as principal characters, they were double and triple checking our weapons after the armorer gave them to us, whether they were cold or hot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So, it's my understanding, just based on everything I've learned in the last several days, that for an actor to be double or triple checking a firearm that was handed to them that would have presumably already been checked, that is not the way things should play out.

CHARNLEY: Well, keep in mind that there are industry-wide safety guidelines. The number-one guideline says blanks can kill. And so the other guideline that kind of umbrellas everything is that safety on a set is everyone's concern. It's not just the armorer's concern, it's not just the first A.D.'s concern, it is everyone's concern.

Nobody wants to see one of their colleagues get hurt, whether it's in a stunt, whether it's a pyrotechnic, whether it's simply swimming in a swimming pool. Nobody wants to see anybody get hurt. And we all have to be vigilant. We all have to keep our eyes open. And if we see something wrong, held up your hand and bring it to the attention of the right people. I don't know necessarily whether that was done on this particular set, but that's certainly the standard in the industry. The other thing in this particular case that I find interesting, and people haven't really talked about it, at least in the coverage I've seen, is use of the term, cold gun. Generally speaking, when you're talking about a cold set versus a hot set, a cold set is a set where nothing is really hooked up, there's no explosions that are hooked on to any sort of live energy source. A hot set is a case where somebody says it's a hot set, and whatever you do, you're told by those words, don't go into this set, because for whatever reason we don't want you going in there, it's dangerous or it's part of continuity, et cetera.

HILL: Right. And that's the concern if you're told cold gun. You think it's safe and that you don't have to worry about it. Unfortunately, Mr. Charnley, we are out of time but I really appreciate your expertise. Thank you for joining us. Still so many questions ahead, and I appreciate you walking us through some of those.

Still to come, we will have more from Rome as President Biden makes his way there for a historic trip. The looming challenges, though, that demand his attention before steps foot on Air Force One, more on that just ahead.

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