Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Movie Set Shooting Investigation; Infrastructure Negotiations. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired October 28, 2021 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:01]

BRITTANY SHEPHERD, YAHOO! NEWS: That's why Biden went up to the Hill, said, please, please do this.

And if they can't, someone like Youngkin might be able to come in (INAUDIBLE) power and take that seat away.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: People like Joe Biden Terry McAuliffe keep promising you things. And where's the delivery? Where's the delivery? We will see.

Appreciate your time on INSIDE POLITICS today. Hope to see you back here at this time tomorrow.

Erica Hill picks up our coverage right now. Have a good day.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Good afternoon. I'm Erica Hill in New York, in for Ana Cabrera today.

And we do continue with our breaking news at this hour. President Biden, of course, on Capitol Hill leaving empty-handed as he now makes his way to Europe, his biggest agenda item, frankly, up in the air right now, thanks to infighting within his own party.

His warring Democratic factions, progressives and moderates, well, they have gotten to a point, right, where there's a lot of negotiating the social safety net package, the price tag now down to about half of what it initially was, so $1.75 trillion, today.

The key holdouts, though, demanding those cuts, moderate Senators Manchin and Sinema, they're still not committing. Those who wanted a bigger bill, they're not on board yet either. A short time ago, the president full sales mode here before making his way to Rome announced there's a framework in place that he says all Democrats should get behind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a framework that will create millions of jobs, grow the economy, invest in our nation and our people, turn the climate crisis into an opportunity to put us on a path not only to compete, but to win the economic competition for the 21st century against China and every other major country in the world.

It's fiscally responsible. It's fully paid for; 17 Nobel Prize winners in economics have said it will lower the inflationary pressures on the economy. And over the next 10 years, it will not add to the deficit at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: This could be the biggest gamble of the Biden presidency.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi pushing for a vote on the separate infrastructure bill, despite clear messages from progressives who say they will not support it without knowing more specifics, without seeing legislative text for this social spending bill. They want to know it with will go through too, and, again, that guaranteed support not there right now among Senate Democrats.

Pelosi, meantime, warning her caucus not to embarrass the president as he travels to Europe with America's reputation and his own credibility at stake.

CNN's Phil Mattingly is in Rome. Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill.

Manu, I want to start with you, because some of the reaction that we're hearing, especially coming out of this meeting of the Progressive Caucus, it is very clear they are digging in here. Today may not be a vote for infrastructure. They're not happy.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they're not.

And Nancy Pelosi signaling that she is pushing ahead. She told Democrats at that caucus meeting that they -- she wants to have the vote today. A number of Democrats got up and gave her a round of applause. But a number of them also were seated. They did not applaud. Those were progressive members because they want assurances from the more moderate Democrats, those, Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema, they will get behind that larger social safety net package.

Now, Sinema did put out a statement positive about it, but she didn't say she would support it. Manchin has refused to comment about what he what he believes, if he supports us or not, even though they have come down substantially in his direction. The reason why it was reduced to $1.75 trillion was because of Manchin and Sinema's concerns.

The reason why paid leave in particular was dropped was because of Joe Manchin. The Medicare expansion would include hearing, but not vision and dental, because of Joe Manchin, but nevertheless Manchin is not yet saying he will support that.

And it's still going to take some time to draft this framework into actual legislative tax and try to get it through the House and the Senate. That could take days, weeks, maybe even months. So that is why Nancy Pelosi does not want this process to keep dragging out. She says that separate infrastructure bill should move forward, even though those assurances are not there. And she told her members she's prepared to keep that vote open

potentially for hours to try to cajole members to come along and vote for this. But heading into today, I was told that they were up to 55 progressive Democrats who are prepared to vote no because that larger bill is just not drafted and done yet.

And coming out of a meeting just now that Pelosi attended briefly, progressives are saying that they are still not supportive of going ahead. And Bernie Sanders, just moments ago, I caught up with him. And I asked him about if he agreed with the progressive strategy. And he says he does. He says they should not have the vote, that infrastructure vote today, because he said there should be assurance of that all 50 Democrats in the Senate are behind that larger bill.

So, as you can see, despite the aggressive -- the pretty intense push by the Democratic leaders, by Joe Biden coming and saying that the congressional majorities are on the line, depending how they act in the next week, and despite Nancy Pelosi telling her caucus -- quote -- "do not embarrass the president as he's going overseas, the votes simply are not there.

[13:05:11]

So it's uncertain if Pelosi is still going to push ahead or she will be forced to have to punt yet again -- Erica.

HILL: Especially if we're hearing, I mean, as you point out from your conversation with Senator Sanders, right, if we're hearing from him and from others, I mean, if the messages don't vote for infrastructure, we still need to get, for example, prescription drug pricing, which we know Senator Sanders wants in this bill, this negotiation is not over.

But, Phil, the president really voicing confidence that Democrats will unite behind this framework. I imagine the mood inside the White House, I mean, not real positive at this moment, because the reaction is likely not what the president wanted.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Erica, the danger of a high-stakes gamble is you could lose, right? And it doesn't mean that this process is over. It doesn't mean negotiations are over.

It doesn't even mean necessarily the infrastructure bill doesn't end up with a successful vote at some time in the near future. But the fact of the matter is, Speaker Pelosi and the president agreed to bring the president to Capitol Hill, use pretty much all of his cache and leverage to try and push forward on having this infrastructure vote and getting progressives behind a framework, not a full written piece of legislation.

And at this point, that simply hasn't worked. Muscling them hasn't worked. Now, the president has made very, very clear, as Manu alluded to, the stakes, saying he was not being hyperbolic when he said the majorities in the House, the Senate and the presidency would likely be determined in terms of success over the course of the next week or so. And he also made clear that just because the framework doesn't have

everything you wanted, it has more than probably most people could have imagined. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I want to thank my colleagues in the Congress for the leadership. We spent hours and hours and hours over months and months working on this.

No one got everything they wanted, including me. But that's what compromise is. That's consensus. And that's what I ran on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And I think that's a very big overarching point here, is that what he ran on was getting things done. Competency was a big part of his campaign and why the White House things he won or a large piece of why he won, and then delivering on policies

Even if it's not $4 trillion, if it's in total, when you combine everything they have done this year, nearing $3 trillion, $4 trillion, $5 trillion, that is still significant, that is still substantial, that is still transformational. What it isn't yet is drafted and done in legislative text.

And, look, Erica, White House officials knew going into today they did not have a full agreement locked in. They did not know the votes were going to be there if they push forward. But they decided to make this decision for two reasons.

One, they wanted to jump-start the process. Two, they knew the president was heading here, Rome, should be lifting off in a short while meeting with world leaders both here and also in Copenhagen for a major climate conference. They wanted something in hand, obviously still pressing forward for that on Capitol Hill, but not there yet, as the president heads this way.

HILL: Yes, certainly not there yet, especially based on what we're hearing from lawmakers.

Phil Mattingly, Manu Raju, appreciate it.

Let's continue the conversation now.

Joining us, CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger and CNN presidential historian Douglas Brinkley.

And, Gloria, I just want to let we just got in some new reporting about Congresswoman Jayapal, who just told CNN after that meeting of the Progressive Caucus that she's a no if there's an infrastructure vote today, that they're going to block the infrastructure vote, but that the Progressive Caucus is planning to vote on a resolution that would outline their support for the framework of the bill that was released this morning. So she hasn't spoken to Senator Sanders yet about that. I mean, the

fact that we're seeing all of this play out, look, we know it's messy. We know this is part of the process.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

HILL: But even Congresswoman Debbie Dingell said this morning on "NEW DAY" she has never seen the sausage-making this bad.

You have got Senator Sanders telling House progressives not to vote on infrastructure. Congressman Jayapal is a no. They're trying to keep negotiations open.

BORGER: Right.

HILL: I mean, I just have to ask again, like, where does this end, not just for the president, but, frankly, for the American people?

BORGER: Right.

Look, they're trying to keep their leverage. Don't forget, these are Democrats arguing with Democrats. It's not like these are Democrats arguing with Republicans. And Joe Biden went up there today and effectively did what Ronald Reagan used to do, which is to say, look, just win one for the Gipper. Like, we got to get this done. It's not hyperbolic to say my entire presidency is on the line here.

And yet, and yet there are still problems. And this was a high-risk thing for Biden to do. And it's not over. The question that I would ask is, what's the alternative here for progressives? Would progressives rather have nothing to take back to voters in the midterm elections? Or would they rather have something to take back to voters?

And I think that's the sort of overarching theme here. The problem is that the progressives don't trust Manchin and Sinema, these two senators. And so they want to see it all in writing. They want to get done what they can get done.

[13:10:00]

In the meantime, Biden's presidency hangs in the balance. And I think the president said it himself. And so I think everybody needs to sort of take a step back and say, if you're a Democrat, what's the greater good here? Stop talking about what got cut from the bill, and start talking about what is in the bill.

HILL: Gloria, to your point, though, isn't that what the president did this morning?

BORGER: He did.

HILL: Didn't he go to the Hill to say precisely that? And look at how it's played.

I mean, to your point, I'm not sure what's next. But I do find it interesting that Jayapal is now saying they're going to draft a resolution to talk about their support for the framework. I mean, what does that get you?

BORGER: Nothing.

HILL: Kicking the can down the road again?

BORGER: No, well, we will have to see what that gets us. I mean, let's see what happens in a couple of hours. I mean, this is a story that's moving right now.

I'm not quite sure what that means. I think Bernie Sanders is saying to the progressives, just don't buy anything. We need to see what is in this before you're going to vote, which is -- it's a legitimate point of view, obviously, obviously.

HILL: Sure.

BORGER: But they don't trust each other. And that's what's so remarkable, after the president has gone to Capitol Hill twice. And, today, he leaves for Europe. And he says, look, my presidency is on the line.

And yet they're still this problems going on. So I don't know where it's going to wind up.

HILL: So in terms of -- Douglas, in terms of the president and his presidency, he did, as Gloria said, as we heard from Manu, I mean, he was very clear in this meeting saying he's not being hyperbolic.

But the majority, right, in the Senate and the House and his presidency really rests on what happens in the next few days. He did in his speech point to all of the good things that are in this bill that could be in many ways transformational.

But I wonder, was that enough?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: I don't think it's enough.

I mean, we can always say democracy is messy. But the Biden administration has seemed unable to really lead the Democratic Party. Jimmy Carter once said, the Democratic Party's an albatross around my neck. Well, they divided in two, the Scoop Jackson conservatives or moderates vs. the Ted Kennedy liberals.

And Democrats have had failed years before. I mean, Bill Clinton in 1993 prioritized what becomes affordable health care under Obama, but it was a bust in 1993. What was the result for Bill Clinton? Newt Gingrich and the Contract of America for 1994.

So I think, for the Democrats right now, they had they're thinking more in terms of Obama and Obamacare, that it took a while, it took longer, but eventually got done and you got it right. But Biden keeps putting these markers like on everything he does. By July 4, this many people will be vaccinated, then they're not. This is going to happen in Afghanistan, and then it doesn't. Mandating for vaccinations, but are you really going to release -- let a third of the police force of Chicago go? So he seems to have a muddle message, Obama (sic).

What's important for him now, wheels up, he's going to Europe, he'd like to say a framework for a deal is in place, and then he's going to be meeting the pope. When you meet Pope Francis, that's a big historic moment.

Biden is our second Catholic president. They will be able to talk about climate change. And it should be -- the optics, hopefully, of this trip will be good. Yet Biden meeting with anybody, any French leadership is problematic due to the recent nuclear submarine deal that cut France out of the picture between the United States, Australia and Great Britain.

So it's a time fraught for problems with Joe Biden. And we have got the Virginia gubernatorial race coming up on Tuesday.

HILL: Yes, Virginia, New Jersey on Tuesday. I mean, there is -- as we know, and we have been talking this long, there is so much riding on this, Gloria.

Real quickly, before I let you go, the fact that former President Obama is putting out a statement about this, and he's basically saying, look, this could be transformational. This is a really big deal. There's a lot in that bill.

BORGER: Right.

HILL: He's also in that statement saying, suck it up, get on board.

BORGER: Right.

HILL: Who is that for? Do you think? Do you think that is for progressives? Is that for disgruntled voters?

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: I think he's talking to progressives, because the progressives are the ones right now who believe that Manchin and Sinema have been driving this train, and they're upset about it. And so is Bernie Sanders upset about it.

But, in the end, this is a little bit larger than just them. It's about the presidency. It's about the Democrats proving that they can have a governing majority. We all know the margins are really slim and all the rest of it, but they have to prove that they can govern here, because the alternative to this bill is nothing. Nothing.

And they have to be able to say, OK, we didn't get everything in this in bill, but we're going to come back at it and we're going to try and do it that way.

[13:15:06]

But I think what Obama's saying, you have to help out Joe Biden here, right? You have to let him prove that he can lead.

HILL: Nothing is a tough thing to run on in 2022.

BORGER: Exactly. Exactly.

HILL: Gloria Borger, Douglas Brinkley, always good to talk with both of you. Thank you.

As Gloria noted, this is developing really by the minute at this point. We are going to stay on this very closely throughout the day.

We will in just a short time be speaking with a key moderate in these negotiations who's been negotiating with the White House. What's his message to progressives right now? And a little something that was left out that he may want in the bill. What could that mean?

Plus, no one has been ruled out. That's the word when it comes to potential criminal charges following that shooting on the set of the movie "Rust." The assistant director admitting he didn't check the gun before handing it to Alec Baldwin.

Stay with us. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:19]

HILL: No one is clear.

That's the message from Santa Fe's sheriff concerning criminal charges surrounding the deadly shooting on the set of the Alec Baldwin movie "Rust" in New Mexico. The investigation is now centered on how a live round ended up in that gun. And it's also focused on two people at this point, we're told, the assistant director, David Halls, and the armorer, Hannah Gutierrez.

CNN's Josh Campbell joining us live from Santa Fe.

Josh, you also spoke with the Santa Fe district attorney. She's the person who would decide if anyone faces charges. What is she telling you?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erica, I spoke to the DA.

She said that this very much remains an active investigation. She also described that bringing criminal charges is a high -- a tall order here in the state of New Mexico. She said they're continuing to gather evidence. At this point, in her words, there certainly appears to be civil negligence here, but they're working to determine whether they will actually be bringing criminal charges.

She also gave us new information about the key factor that she will be using in determining whether charges will be brought. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARY CARMACK-ALTWIES, NEW MEXICO FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I was sort of taught was you treat a firearm like a live snake. And so it's a terrible tragedy.

We don't know how those live rounds got there. And I think that will probably end up being kind of the linchpin for whether a decision is made about charges.

CAMPBELL: Do you feel any pressure on you to actually charge someone here?

CARMACK-ALTWIES: I know that there's pressure out there. I do not feel that pressure. I will not make my decision based on that pressure. The decision will be based on the law and the evidence, period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMPBELL: Now, today, we're also learning new information about the scope of the sheriff's department's investigation, that narrowing too.

The two people that handled that firearm and handed it to Alec Baldwin, that according to the sheriff speaking to "The Today Show," those two staff members, the assistant director, Dave Halls, as well as the armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, they are now the focus of this investigation as the officials here try to determine how those live rounds got on the set, how they made their way into that firearm.

That shooting, of course, taking the life of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins -- Erica.

HILL: Appreciate it. Josh Campbell with the latest for us.

Also joining us now, former federal prosecutor Laura Coates.

So, Laura, as Josh just pointed out, there's this focus right now on the assistant director, on the armorer. The sheriff has said no one is clear. We know that there's a chance Alec Baldwin could face liability as a producer on the film.

After listening to the DA there, what is your sense based on what we know? Do you see criminal charges potentially coming in? And if so, for whom?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, she's absolutely right about two things, that this is such a tragedy. And also she should not cave to pressure. It must be the actual evidence.

But as saying that, Erica, the evidence seems to be very pointing in the direction of extraordinary negligence. The idea here, if it's a criminal prosecution, you're talking about not just nefarious conduct of somebody perhaps intentionally or perhaps negligently putting the actual bullets and live rounds into a gun, but also there are ways to charge for even accidents.

And nobody wants that to come about, because, of course, if things are truly accidents, as New Mexico law will tell you, they do have an excusable homicide statute, which says, if somebody has been involved in an otherwise lawful activity, and they have acted reasonably, they should not be convicted of a crime.

However, that word reasonably, Erica, is why this is such an important case to look at, because when it comes to civil liability, you're talking about a duty of care. What was owed to the people on the set? Although it's a movie set, Erica, it still is a workplace. And so you have a duty of care that's owed the people who are at that workplace.

And if there is some deviation from that standard of care, and it's not reasonable, then there can be civil liability.

HILL: There have been questions. There have been concerns raised about safety on the set.

One of the actors actually spoke with TMZ. Here's one of the things that he said about what he saw and experienced. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IAN HUDSON, ACTOR: As a new actor, I don't want to cause trouble. I don't want to make an issue about things. I just want to do as well as I can and get the footage that they want.

So I held my tongue for a lot of it. But some of the other actors who had worked on a lot more sets than I have as principal characters, they were double- and triple-checking our weapons after the armorer gave them to us, whether they were cold or hot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: That's a separate interview. I mean, you would imagine investigators will be talking to every one they can who was involved in this production.

[13:25:03]

But statements like that, how does it impact the investigation? How does it impact public perception?

COATES: Well, it has a huge impact, because it talks about notice, Erica. Was there some notice that there should have been safety protocols in place that should have been followed?

If there are safety protocols that are part of industry standards that are normally followed, if there's a deviation from either checking to ensure that it was in fact a cold gun, meaning there's no live gun -- live ammunition in the actual round, if it's a matter of double- checking, and planning for error, planning for human error and trying to correct it, those are all things that you have to look at.

And you're talking about what, is to blame? And accidents, of course, in our court of public opinion, we think about, oh, accidents, we have to kind of look the other way. No, not in the law. A lot of times, civil liability is about deterring anything like this

from happening again. And it involves trying to look at what was the industry standard, what should have been done, who were the crew members who owed that duty of care to the people who were injured and one woman killed, and, ultimately, who was responsible for making sure that they implement and execute those safety protocols?

Now, in the law, jurors, if this were to go to trial, they are well aware you could have what's called comparative negligence, Erica, where it's not just one person who may be left holding the bag, but, ultimately, compared to everyone else's behavior, who had a hand in the liability?

That's where this is probably directionally going. But the tragedy is just overwhelming if there was notice and they knew to do better.

HILL: Laura Coates, always good to have you with us. Thank you.

COATES: Thank you.

HILL: Progressives aggressively pushing back on plans to vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill -- deal, rather, today, without a vote on President Biden's social spending plan.

Now it appears Speaker Pelosi still moving forward. We will discuss with a moderate lawmaker involved in the negotiations next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)