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Pelosi Speaks As Biden Tries To Save Domestic Agenda; Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA) Discusses Infrastructure Bill; Facebook Changes Name To Meta, Focus Shifts To Virtual World; Critics Rip WSJ for Publishing Trump Letter Full Of Lies; Tucker Carlson Promotes Special Filled With Lies About 1/6 Riot; Don Lemon Speaks With Chauvin Trial Jurors. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired October 28, 2021 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): When he goes to these meetings with the G-20 now and then to meet His Holiness, the pope, and to go to Glasgow, we want him to go as strong as possible.

And when I had my meeting with His Holiness, the pope, I brought the president's greetings and, of course, I brought the greetings of the Congress of the United States.

And climate was a very big, important issue for His Holiness. As I know it will be part -- I assume it will be part of their discussion.

But the climate issue is not just about, as I say, health and that. It's about people in poverty having -- taking a terrible bite of this wormy apple called the climate crisis.

So, it's a big values issue for us. Any time you want to ask me why I think this is transformative, I'm happy to answer that question.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Madam Speaker, the framework includes $100 million investment they say is separate for immigration. That separate within the Build Back Better Act or is it separate from the Build Back Better Act?

PELOSI: It's over and above the $1.75.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Madam Speaker --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Madam Speaker --

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: Thank you all.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you holding an infrastructure vote today? Have you made that decision? ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: OK, back with us now, CNN congressional

correspondent, Jessica Dean --

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Oh, hold on. She's coming back, I guess.

CAMEROTA: Oh, here she comes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you holding an infrastructure --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you holding --

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Well, there's that.

CAMEROTA: That was a head fake right there for all of us. We thought she might answer some more questions.

But let's bring in our panel. We have CNN senior White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, chief political correspondent, Dana Bash, CNN political director, David Chalian.

Jessica, is there a vote today on infrastructure or not? I couldn't tell.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, it doesn't appear that way as of right now. That's certainly what they're hoping for.

You could see -- hear, rather, through Speaker Pelosi's words, that's what she wants. She was plotting out the case for why they should act today, why they should move quickly.

The question right now is, do they have the votes? We know they have been -- the Democratic leadership has been whipping the votes.

We know it is going to the Rules Committee. What that means in plain English is simply that they are going to the next procedural step to get the Build Back Better plan moving along, which is what progressives said they want to see.

But the question remains, will you get that infrastructure vote today? We are waiting to hear.

But what was important to take away from that, remember, we're talking about two tracks here. On the other track, that Build Back Better Act, what was important to hear from Speaker Pelosi, Victor and Alisyn, is that that text is up.

We have heard time and time again from people all across the Democratic spectrum, we want to see the text, we need to see the text, we haven't seen the text, so we can't say.

Including two very key people in all of this, Joe Manchin, who said, earlier today, he hadn't seen the text and he wouldn't explicitly say if he supported this framework.

Same with Senator Kyrsten Sinema, who has not explicitly, that she supports the framework and she's excited about it and wants to move forward.

Now that this text is up, it's a very large bill. People will start to go through all of that. But that's going to be the next step.

Again, at 3:00 we are anticipating the Rules Committee opens up for this. That's the next step for Build Back Better.

Remember, will that be enough for progressives to then open themselves up to an infrastructure vote? They've tied those two together -- Victor and Alisyn?

BLACKWELL: Dana, the text that's up, is that the text that satisfies the progressives who wanted to see the text of a bill to decide if they want to move forward? Are we talking one in the same here?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it seems that way. But most important -- well, they have to read it.

Most importantly is something we were talking about when the speaker came to the podium. And that was some remarks that Pramila Jayapal, the progressive chair, made earlier, just maybe about half an hour ago.

These are really key. What she said was, "What I will tell you is everyone in the room" -- she's talking about progressives - "everyone in the room enthusiastically endorsed a resolution that approves the principal framework that the president laid out today."

So, in English, what she said is that progressives enthusiastically endorsed the idea of a very, very slimmed down compromise, the $1.75 trillion bill.

Yes, they have to wait for the legislative text. Yes, they want to do it -- vote on it in conjunction with the infrastructure bill. But those are -- those are important, but those are process questions.

On the big substantive issue, that's a big deal for the Progressive Caucus share to say that they came out of a meeting after the president came up there and said, OK, we're in.

As long as what we're looking at, as long as the legislative text matches, in theory, and the themes of what you promised, Mr. President, Madam Speaker, we are in. That's big.

CAMEROTA: Manu, you're just joining us now.

Tell us what your thoughts are. It's funny, because just before the speaker came out, we were talking about, where's the text? She came out and said, the text is up. Our producer tells us it's over 2,000 pages.

[14:35:02] So I haven't had time to read it yet, Manu. Seems you might have.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But where are we at this moment?

RAJU: Well, the question is, is that going to be enough to satisfy the progressives? Remember what a number of them said was not just text needs to be released but they want the House to actually approve that bill.

They also want all 50 Senate Democrats to say they would support that bill when it comes time for a Senate vote.

Neither of those are expected to happen imminently. That's why I tried to ask the speaker, you have this bill out, you heard what the progressives are demanding, why not just wait on that infrastructure bill?

Why not wait until next week so people can read through this bill, have a vote on both floors, satisfy the liberals, saying there are more than 50 of them in this camp, and then move forward?

She made clear she wants to push ahead on the infrastructure vote.

The thing she pointed to, in my exchange, was the Sunday deadline, October 31st. That's when surface transportation funding is going to expire across the country.

They can extend it, like they did last month. But if they were to extend it, as she said, it would create uncertainty, and we don't want to do that. That's why she said we're pressing ahead.

Now she didn't explicitly say when they would have that vote, but the expectation is they are trying to vote on this today.

They are moving behind the scenes to try to lock down support from the members, from the progressives.

And Pelosi wants to have this passed by the time Joe Biden lands overseas. She made that clear this morning. That is still the hope and expectation of the Democratic leaders.

Does the development that there's new text available, does that change the dynamic? That's still a question.

But it's no question from the speaker. She wants that bill passed and the other larger bill done. How long it takes, though, that's another question.

BLACKWELL: David Chalian, your top-line takeaway from the speaker's news conference?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I think, as Manu just made clear, and watching the speaker today, I think it was clear to all of us, if she was not still in scrambling mode to find the votes, we would know exactly what time we could tune in to watch the House pass the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

We don't know be that because she doesn't have this locked down yet.

Now you noted, it's some 2,500 pages or whatever it is in this text.

Not only did the House progressives say they want to see the text and make sure it matches the framework, but we have to ping back to the other side of the capitol right now that the text is up.

Do we get more definitive statements of support from Manchin and Sinema once they have gone through this text? That is something else progressives have asked for.

By the way, something Nancy Pelosi has said over and over and over again, that she is not going to move forward with anything without certainty it's going to pass the Senate.

So, there are still a lot of balls in the air here at this moment. And I think the speaker acknowledged that by not stating yes definitively there will be a bipartisan infrastructure deal passed today.

CAMEROTA: Kaitlan, it sounds like, the Capitol Hill -- the Democrats had wanted President Biden to be able to land there in Rome with something to show for all of these efforts over the past couple of months. It's unclear right now if that's going to happen.

Is that a big deal? Will he be received differently when he lands in Rome if he doesn't have something to show for it?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the White House seems to think he will. Democratic leaders have been arguing the same to their caucus as a reason to vote for this.

When it comes to the timing of these votes, the White House is completely deferring to Speaker Pelosi.

They made that clear earlier today that they're not saying when this should happen, just that they do advocate for it, and that she can decide the timing.

So the decision she makes on the infrastructure vote, obviously, that's up to Speaker Pelosi. But she was urging this immediate action.

The president has a few more hours to go before he does land here. He delayed his flight so he could make that speech earlier, make that last-minute appeal to Democrats.

Of course, whether or not he actually gets that by the time he lands, that remains to be seen.

We know it's not just about having those climate proposals for the international climate summit that's upcoming so he can use that to set an example.

It's also the sense of what Pelosi described earlier as a vote of confidence from his Congress to boost him, as he is coming here to meet with other world leaders.

Given all the scrambling happening back in the United States when it comes to his agenda over the last several days.

So that's where they are. You heard Clarissa there just saying what she was saying privately, they want to send the president here on a strong note.

We'll wait to see if they do and how the president uses that to his advantage. If they do, and what he says if they don't.

CAMEROTA: All right. Everyone, thank you very much.

We're about to get the answers to every one of your questions right now.

Because we're going to bring in Democratic congresswoman from Pennsylvania, Madeleine Dean. She's part of the Progressive Caucus.

Thank you so much. I know it's a busy day, Congresswoman. Thanks for being here.

OK, the framework is up, the text is up of the framework. The details are in there. It's open for anybody to see.

Are the progressives now ready to vote on that infrastructure bill?

REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): Well, thanks for having that confidence in me that I know all the answers.

CAMEROTA: I do.

[14:40:00]

DEAN: I'll be honest with you. When I don't, I'll be sure to say, I don't have the answer.

But this is an historic day. I'm very excited.

The day began, of course, with a very exuberant, enthusiastic visit to our caucus by the president of the United States, where he laid out the framework.

And the framework is exciting. It's $1.75 trillion in investments in our children.

Universal pre-K, something I have been fighting for since I was a state representative in Pennsylvania, universal pre-K. And $400 billion for childcare and universal pre-K. What an extraordinary, historic investment in our children.

CAMEROTA: So --

DEAN: And $550 billion for climate and for our planet, protection of our planet. These are historic investments.

You saw the enthusiastic statement by the chair of the Progressive Caucus. I am a member of the Progressive Caucus.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

DEAN: So we enthusiastically --

CAMEROTA: So it sounds like --

DEAN: -- support the framework.

CAMEROTA: Great. It sounds like you're ready to vote now on infrastructure?

DEAN: Well, actually, the timing of the calendar and the two bills, both the speaker and the president over and over again said that these two bills are wedded to each other.

These investments, both in our hard infrastructure, our built environment, as well as in our environment and people, in seniors, in children.

These two bills are wedded together. I think, procedurally, the clock and the calendar is in the hands of our speaker as well as the whip.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Well, Congresswoman, hold on.

She just said she would like to do it now. The reason she laid out she would like to do it now is because there's a deadline coming up this weekend where the highway -- the transportation funding runs out this weekend. She would like that infrastructure vote today.

Can that happen?

DEAN: I don't -- I think it can happen, but I don't know that it will. Certainly, they're whipping right now.

We have really support, strong support for the bipartisan infrastructure deal. And now we have strong caucus support for the framework for Build Back Better.

Something I wanted to say is that, you know, the speaker talked about lifting the president as he lands in Europe and as he visits with foreign leaders, as he visits with Pope Frances.

I would tell you, if you were in that caucus today, you would have felt the lift that our caucus gave him, when he said and asked for our vote. The applause, the standing ovation he received on the framework and many elements in it was just extraordinary. So, I think we sent him off with a lift.

I'm not sure of the clock on the bipartisan infrastructure bill. I, too, wish we could get it done because of the October 31st deadline. We want to avoid any interruption or furloughs for American families. But I have a confidence, we will get both of these things done.

And I don't know if you saw the statement by former President Barack Obama.

CAMEROTA: We did.

DEAN: He said, sometimes things move slowly and progress seems very slow, but this is a moment for a giant leap forward.

CAMEROTA: Yes. But I mean --

DEAN: That's an exciting day.

CAMEROTA: It does sound like something has -- the log jam or impasse has broken.

So, you're happy with what you've seen in the framework. And are you confident that so will Senators Manchin and Sinema be? Because I know some in your caucus have felt, I don't know, sort of like Charlie Brown and the football at times?

DEAN: I get that analogy. I grew up with Charlie Brown and that football.

Certainly, what I heard from the president and from the speaker is a confidence. And you know that the president negotiated hours, tens upon tens of hours with Senators Manchin and Sinema around this bill, around this framework.

So I have faith in the president and what he has crafted in the legislation, what we have had to reduce it to as a result of this slim majority in the Senate.

But what you are seeing here, even though the birthing pains are painful, is governing. This is Democrats governing as Republicans sit on their hands and a party really about anger and mean-spiritedness and disinformation.

We are governing. We are investing in an historic way in our children and in our planet. There couldn't be more useful work to be doing.

CAMEROTA: So when one of your fellow progressives, Congresswoman Cori Bush, tells reporters that she feels bamboozled by the framework on the social safety net bill, you see it disagree, you feel differently?

DEAN: I don't know why she said that. I don't know what element of it made her people bamboozled. I am very encouraged by this framework.

As I said, if we did just the infrastructure bill, that will be important, historic investment. But by doing every dollar above the infrastructure bill, that's transformational.

You know, when we did the child tax credit that lifted 40 percent of children who are poor out of poverty. We have to continue that kind of investment in our children, in our families, in our workers, in our seniors.

[14:45:02]

Now there's $150 billion in this framework for home care. There's another $150 billion for housing.

In my district, we have seniors, thousands deep, in waiting lines for affordable housing.

CAMEROTA: So --

DEAN: And $150 billion in housing, that's going to be a generational change.

CAMEROTA: Congresswoman, it sounds like you're telling us, you don't think it's going to get any better than that for progressives? This is where you are. You're willing to accept this framework.

Family leave isn't in it, but it's not going to get any better than what you have today?

DEAN: Well, but I wouldn't say it with that spirit. I would say it with the spirit of, this is fantastic.

What we will do and what the president and the speaker are committed to is Building Back Better more in the future.

You're right, the family -- paid family leave piece is still trying to be negotiated in.

But I will -- I will take the framework as it is, as the progressives have said in our statement, and say, what is in there to celebrate. There's so much in here to celebrate.

Guess what? We've got more work to do once we get this passed.

CAMEROTA: Congresswoman --

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Can I say one other quick thing --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

DEAN: -- to make sure your viewers know? It's paid for.

CAMEROTA: Do you want to tell us how?

DEAN: Number one, tax compliance. We know as much as $400 to $600 billion a year goes uncollected in income tax. Rightfully due income tax. We have to make sure we enforce that and many other things.

CAMEROTA: OK. Congresswoman Madeleine Dean, thank you. We know this is all very fluid and we really appreciate you taking the time to come in and answer these questions.

DEAN: Thank you for inviting me.

BLACKWELL: That's the celebratory tone you were talking about at the time. Now celebrating the elements --

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: And it's a shift.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: We heard Nancy Pelosi and now Congresswoman Dean who are saying, now we want to celebrate. We're ready to celebrate.

That's different than what we heard this morning, as we were saying, from progressives who said the framework left them feeling bamboozled.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: -- Rashida Tlaib. So we'll continue to get those reactions as now the text subpoena for review.

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, a revamp for Facebook. The social media giant just announced a name change. How will that help them stem the tide have bad headlines and devastating revelations.

BLACKWELL: Plus, CNN's Don Lemon joins us to unveil a clip from his exclusive interview with seven jurors from the Derek Chauvin trial. They explain how they felt watching the infamous George Floyd video in its entirety for the first time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:51:53]

BLACKWELL: Mark Zuckerberg is betting big on virtual and audio realities. Today, he announced Facebook will now be called Meta.

And he says the focus of the company specially be what he calls the Metaverse, an online virtual realm where he says people will work and play and shop.

CAMEROTA: Yes, they handled earth so well, let's move to the Metaverse.

BLACKWELL: Move to the Metaverse.

CAMEROTA: The refocus is the company's desire to be known for more than just social media.

CNN chief media correspondent and "RELIABLE SOURCES" anchor, Brian Stelter, joins us.

Brian, this is obviously not -- this more than a name change. They were planning this before all the Facebook papers came out, right?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT & CNN HOST, "RELIABLE SOURCES": That's right. But it is a milestone for the company and it's set to move away from all of the bad news.

Metaverse does not want to be known as Facebook anymore. He wants it to be known as the creator of the Metaverse. Now we've heard about virtual reality for decades. It hasn't really taken hold.

Facebook's vision is still involving goggles or headsets or something to put on your face.

But maybe five or 10 or 15 years ago, it will get to the point where the technology is comfortable enough. There will be glasses like the one's you're wearing. And you can interact in the virtual world and the real world at the time.

That's great, in theory, right? That would be great, wouldn't it, to go ride a roller coaster from the comfort of your own home? Although, I still think I would prefer going in person.

But that's the Metaverse pitch. That's his pitch. That's what Meta is.

But Facebook is not going away. Nothing about today's name change changes the problems on Facebook.

BLACKWELL: Right. We'll see where the Metaverse takes us.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: I don't like any of it. I just like reality. I'm just not a fan.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: -- reality?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BLACKWELL: OK, all right.

Let's talk about what is happening today. This "Wall Street Journal" letter to the editor from former President Donald Trump.

STELTER: Yes.

BLACKWELL: The "Wall Street Journal" is getting pushback, even from some of their own reporters, for just publishing this list of lies, essentially, and doing no fact check.

STELTER: Even Facebook has taken action against the former president, Twitter, Facebook and other platforms. But here's "The Journal" giving Trump a platform for his lie, feel-better, relitigating the election.

And it really is ultimately about the ownership. It's Rupert Murdoch, who runs and controls the "Wall Street Journal." This is ultimately on him. He is providing a platform for Trump to continue pushing the Big Lie.

I think -- what I'm hearing from reporters inside "The Journal" is, why are there no standards for the other half of our house? In the newsroom, they have standards. On the opinion side, they don't. If we see Trump enter the election, try to run again, he's going to

have platforms from places like the journal.

So for all the chatter about big tech and what are Twitter and Facebook going to do? Well, has long as he has that with the "Wall Street Journal," he can reach a big audience.

CAMEROTA: There's no excuse for a news organization allowing disinformation like this to stay in their paper. There's just no excuse for it.

They could have fact-checked it. They could have put a disclaimer on it. You can't call yourself a news organization like that.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: -- they get lots of letters, lots of letters.

CAMEROTA: Sure.

STELTER: It's been a year. Next week, it would have been a year since the election. It's so pathetic that this is being relitigated over and over again.

But so is the riot. You know, Tucker Carlson is running a three-part special on FOX's streaming service relitigating the riot. So it's election denialism and riot denialism. It's essentially, the GOP's platform.

CAMEROTA: It's even worse than you're describing, Brian.

BLACKWELL: The special? Yes.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

I think it's even worse than what you're saying because they're even trying to concoct a new narrative about what happened that day with the riot and the insurrection.

[14:55:08]

So listen to what one of the guests on that special says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: False lies have happened in this country.

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of which may have been January 6th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: False flag. False flag. Any time you don't like what your people did, you claim there was a false flag. Someone else did it. It's the other side's fault. (CROSSTALK)

STELTER: You see Bin Laden in that video. The idea of 9/11 being some inside job, of being a false flag, that was a kooky conspiracy theory relegated to the far dark corners of the Internet that never would have appeared on FOX or CNN or MSNBC.

Yet, these are now these kinds of things are being mainstreamed by Rupert Murdoch.

BLACKWELL: Yes. There's waterboarding imagery in the promo and talking about the helicopters coming for you. It is extreme.

Brian Stelter, thank you very much.

STELTER: thanks.

BLACKWELL: Let's turn now to a CNN exclusive interview. Don Lemon sits down with seven of the jurors who voted to convicted former Minneapolis police officer, Derek Chauvin, of murdering George Floyd.

And Don asked about the importance of that agonizing video of George Floyd's death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLE WILLIAMS, JUROR: I think the way the video, the many times we did see it, was the importance of the video. It was dramatic for sure.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Did anybody see it in the courtroom in its entirety?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You saw it in its entirety, and?

JODI DOWD, JUROR: I almost wanted to shut my eyes. It bothered me so much. And it was mainly, how could anybody do that to somebody else? It wasn't just a gunshot and they're dead. It was a slow death. And you are doing this.

It bothered me to the fact that a person can do this to another person. I felt for George. I'm like, oh. It just got to my core.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: And Don Lemon joins us now.

Don, that looks fascinating.

Is this the first time that we see the jurors' identities?

LEMON: It's the first time we see their identity. They will be fully identified by the court system by the judge on Monday.

They want to do this as a group because they don't want to be chased by the media. They don't want to have to reiterate and retell their stories over and over and over again. One and done, they say.

And it was very tough for them.

You were talking to Brian Stelter about false flags, right? And the only false flags I saw was the Blue Lives Matter and the American flag, because certainly what they're doing, what Tucker Carlson is doing, is going against the American people.

For people who say they care about police officers, they certainly don't by putting out lies about the election.

We're living in this alternative reality, right, about what the country is about, what the world is about.

For many, George Floyd didn't happen, you know what I mean?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: For the importance of Black Lives Matter, they're saying it shouldn't have happened.

Obviously, George Floyd being killed shouldn't have happened. But I'm talking about the whole thing that came out after George Floyd's death, they're downplaying that.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes, they downplayed that.

So we are living in an alternative universe with Mark Zuckerberg, Tucker Carlson, and the "Wall Street Journal" and certainly the sentiment that has surrounded this case.

BLACKWELL: What we saw there and what we knew about when we learned about the jury, that they are racially diverse.

Let's listen to some comments about whether they thought that was an important factor in the deliberations.

Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: This was about, you know, obviously the death of a man, but I'm sure you knew the whole racial aspect of it. You're very diverse. And nobody was afraid to share their feelings on that?

SHERRI BENTON HARDEMAN, JUROR: Not at all. Race wasn't even ever mentioned in the three and a half weeks that we were in that courtroom. And it was never mentioned during deliberations, I don't believe.

NICOLE DETERS, JUROR: think we got here because of systemic racism within the system, right? Because of what's been going on. That's how we got to a courtroom in the first place. When it came down to all three verdicts, it was based on the evidence and the facts, 100 percent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: And we'll remember that the prosecutors didn't emphasize race during the trial. It was not something they argued.

Any surprises for you in this?

LEMON: That was a big surprise, because we're on the outside looking in, and our discussions every day were about race. If you look at the protest, it was about race. It was about systemic racism.

You heard one of the jurors say, we got here because of systemic racism, but the circumstances surrounding this, the officer's action, that wasn't about racism.

That was -- to them, it was just about mistreating a human being. And it wasn't about what the officer, what Chauvin did, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

LEMON: They said what it came down to is what the officer didn't do.

[14:59:54]

They said the officer was in the custody -- George Floyd was in the custody of police, but he was never in the care of police. And they felt it was a duty of the police officers on the scene to render help to George Floyd when he needed it, and they did not do it.

So it came down to what the officers didn't do rather than what they did do.