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Biden Meets for 90 Minutes with Pope Francis at Vatican; Biden Meets Italian Prime Minister Ahead of G20 Summit; House Again Delays Infrastructure Vote Despite Biden Pitch. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 29, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: A good Friday morning at the top of the hour here. I'm Erica hill in New York.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto live in Rome.

Right now, President Biden on his way to meet the Italian prime minister, Mario Draghi. Later, President Biden will meet with French President Emmanuel Macron. It is a busy morning, a busy weekend, a busy week for the president. This meeting with the French president for Biden, the first face-to-face after a major blow to diplomatic relations between the two close allies last month, France briefly pulling its ambassador to the U.S. for the first time in more than a century, this following a new deal to sell U.S.-made nuclear submarines to Australia, which supplanted a long-running French agreement with Australia.

It follows a much friendlier close meeting between the president and Pope Francis at the Vatican. They've got a long history here, a deeply personal relationship. The White House said there was great rapport and friendship between the two as they discussed very important issues, close to those leaders' hearts, during a 90-minute meeting, including climate change as well as a better response to getting more vaccines to developing countries around the world.

We're going to have much more on the president's plans for today and the coming days in just a moment. It is a busy week here in Europe. Erica?

HILL: It certainly is. Back here at home, Democratic lawmakers again delaying a vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill, this even after that meeting just 24 hours ago with President Biden before he left for Europe. Progressives holding firm, doubling down on their stance, they will not vote for that infrastructure bill unless the larger social safety net package moves in tandem, Jim.

SCIUTTO: That's right. But first, here in Rome, CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson as well as CNN Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins joining me now. Nic, if I could begin with you, the upcoming meeting between President Biden and French President Macron, I think it is proper to describe this as some diplomatic fence-mending necessary. The fact is this is a relationship that goes back more than a couple hundred years. They will remain friends. What has to happen in this meeting for Biden, if you can, to move beyond their very public dispute about the nuclear deal?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, the language until now has been that this was a sort of a communications problem, and that's been accepted on the U.S. side. But I think for President Biden, to be able to move beyond it and for Emmanuel Macron essentially to emerge from this and be able to say, I can commit myself and France to strong Indo-Pacific relations with Australia, with the United States, because that's the direction that the United States is pivoting in in the coming decade, I think for that, President Biden is really going to have to offer President Macron some real face-saving, if you will.

I'm not sure if that's going to emerge from this meeting, but that's what Macron is going to be looking for. He's already told the Australian prime minister, Scott Morrison, that he needs to see concrete action, tangible action in terms of relationships with Australia to really engage in the Indo-Pacific, and is that the kind of language we can expect here. What does tangible action mean in the context of the United States and France at the moment in relation to that submarine deal?

It's hard to see, you can't rope back that position. There's been essentially an apology that this was a miscommunications error. So, Macron is going to need to look for something more, he's going to need to look to President Biden as willing to accept some of the blame.

[10:05:00]

Macron is going into election soon and he needs to kind of offset that essential diplomatic slap in the face that it amounted to for his own political standing back home.

SCIUTTO: Kaitlan, just a short time ago that President Biden and his motorcade left St. Peter's Basilica after a long friendly meeting between Biden and Pope Francis. I spoke to a number of Vatican reporters who could not remember a meeting this long, not just between a pope and a U.S. president but really any world leader, Biden praising Pope Francis as the most significant warrior for peace I've ever met.

Describe what you've heard from White House officials about what went on in that meeting and how close this relationship is.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And, Jim, while the president is here, he has several meetings. You see him preparing now to walk in to meet with the Italian prime minister. But this is obviously -- the meeting with the pope was much more a symbolic and personal meeting for this president. It went on from 75 to 90 minutes depending if you ask the White House or the Vatican how long the meeting lasted.

But you are right, that it is far longer than any other meeting that we've seen in recent years between a pope and a U.S. president has lasted. It's even longer than a lot of the ones President Biden himself has had, not only just with this pope but in the 1980s when he sat down with Pope John Paul II. The president often talks about how that was a meeting that went 45 minutes and something that he said was lengthy meeting and that aides to the pope kept coming in, knocking on the door, trying to wrap the meeting up. That was just 45 minutes.

And so, of course, this one today was much longer. The White House said there was a clear rapport between the two of them, a lot of laughter and warmth in the room. And you saw that on camera as the president was gifting the pope a small token.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: With your permission, I'd like to be able to give you a coin. It has the U.S. seal on the front. What's different with this coin, usually, I know my son would want me to give this to you because on the back of it, I have the state of Delaware, the 261st unit my son served with.

Now, the tradition is, I'm only kidding about this, next time I see you if you don't have it, you have to buy the drinks. Remember that drink. I'm the only Irish man you've ever met. Did you ever had a drink?

I know that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Obviously, that's bit more of the personal side between the two of them in that meeting. They also talked about climate change, COVID-19, several of the topics that, of course, were on the table as soon as the White House was talking about what was going to be a formal topic of discussion between those two, Jim.

SCIUTTO: The mention of his late son, Beau, in that moment, particularly meaningful because Pope Francis consoled Biden and his family following Beau's death a number of years ago.

Kaitlan, you and I have covered our share of summits, individual summits and global summits before, and often they are more pomp and circumstance than consequence. But what other high-stakes meetings are ahead for Biden and what does he hope to come away with from here?

COLLINS: Well, that's what's notable is that this is such a different approach that they're taking to this summit than the G7, just four or five months ago, where the president's message was very clear that America was back, that, of course, he was not former President Trump and he had very different stances toward relationships with allies than his predecessor did.

And that has been challenged a little bit in the last several months if you talk to a lot of diplomatic sources who were unhappy with the way the Afghanistan withdrawal happened. Of course, Nic was talking about this interaction that's coming up shortly between President Biden and the French president. Everyone will be watching that very closely to see have they mended those fences that they were talking about.

Of course, that disruption between the two of them that even led the French to recall their ambassador back as a sign of anger that they had toward the Biden administration for cutting them out of that deal and for not keeping them informed of what was happening when it came to Australia and the United Kingdom.

But, of course, those are not the only important meetings that the president has on his schedule. He's meeting with a series of world leaders at the G20. He's also going to be meeting with the Turkish president on the sidelines of that international climate summit. That's going to be a big one to watch.

I also think it's important to note who is not here, and that is the Chinese president and the Russian president. The White House is going to try to use their absences, which they say is due to COVID-19 largely, they believe, to try to work the room and try to take that opportunity to push their agenda given, of course, the two whose agendas they often conflict with, China and Russia, will not be here.

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SCIUTTO: Yes. The White House believes that being in person will give President Biden an advantage as he cajoles, negotiates with other world leaders.

That is a live picture there of the president's motorcade as he continues his peripatetic schedule this Friday of meetings with world leaders.

Nic, you and I discussed this yesterday, but I've been speaking to diplomats for the last several weeks, some of America's closest allies who do speak privately but also sometimes publicly about a waning confidence in America's leadership in the world, some of isolationist politics at home but also questions about internal divisions. And I wonder, Nic, how serious a challenge that is for this president at this G20 summit.

ROBERTSON: I think when we look at this, we have to recognize that changes in the sphere happen relatively slowly. Take the example of how long it took countries to react to COVID and to find ways to deal with it internally and with each other.

It's the same when you look at these big diplomatic changes that are happening in the world. The United States pivoting more towards Asia, specifically China, and away from allies in Europe. The United States, you know, willing to break, as we've seen with France and some longstanding goodwill to upset allies over the rapid pullout in Afghanistan.

These are immediate events but the longer-term changes, I think those are much slower to come. And what I'm saying is that while European allies adjust to what they perceive as this more isolationist United States, even in its form under President Biden, less chaotic than under former President Donald Trump, nevertheless one that is sort of shifting away from them on a different direction of travel potentially in terms of business with China, the changes are quite slow and gradual

But this is, I think, for the international community, an inflection point where they see these deep divisions in the United States. And they're not sure of the level of continuity that will come with the next president. They're not sure of what level of support President Biden really has and the strength he has of support within the Democratic Party and what that will cost him domestically politically at home and what advantage the Republicans will gain from that. There's less of a certainty about the U.S. position.

So, while we won't see rapid change, we're going to see an evolving change. And I think that will come across perhaps in the conversation with Emmanuel Macron, who wants the United States, President Biden, to accept a stronger European military force that can work side by side, not contrary to NATO. But that's something the French have always championed. They're always sort of have been half in, half out of NATO. So, it's those kinds of changes over time I think we should look to see.

SCIUTTO: Nic Robertson, Kaitlan Collins, stand by. I'm joined by Ambassador Richard Haass. He is President of the Council on Foreign Relations, also a long history in government himself. Ambassador Haass, great to have you on this morning.

You have done your share of international summits through the years. You heard Nic and I speaking there about a view from frankly some of America's closest allies of at least a changing U.S. role in the world, perhaps driven in part by summary withdrawal from Afghanistan recently but other moves. Can President Biden address those concerns at this summit or is that a long, slow drift that just is a new fact of life for this country?

RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, he can try to address them, but he can't assuage people, he can't persuade them that the good old days are back. It didn't begin with President Biden. You had European and international real qualms about what George W. Bush did in Iraq. Then you had Barack Obama and the so- called red lines in Syria, that in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan, President Trump, essentially, the entire presidency was disruptive from European and international perspectives. Now, you've had Afghanistan and so forth. So -- and what just happened in Washington in the last few days. So, it's very difficult. I think this is now baked into the cake to some extent.

SCIUTTO: As we're speaking, Ambassador Haass, Mario Draghi now meeting with U.S. President Joe Biden. A busy day, began with the pope now, he's now meeting with Italian leaders, French leaders to follow.

Ambassador Haass, much was made of the standing of President Biden as he arrives here, arrived here overnight, without having an agreement on his domestic agenda. He has a framework, and, by the way, progressives came out publicly last night saying they support that framework.

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That's no small thing. But he didn't have the agreement he wanted including on climate. Is that a problem for him here?

HAASS: It's something of a problem. It's also -- he's got the poll numbers, which aren't great, curiosity about what happens Tuesday in Virginia. But, again, it's bigger than this. Basically, when foreigners look at the United States, they don't recognize a lot of what they see. They see a political system that often can't deliver. They see January 6th. They see divisions.

So, the immediate problems that Joe Biden faces are part of a much larger picture, which, again, has raised doubts about our reliability and predictability.

SCIUTTO: Ambassador Haass, I know you speak yourself -- and you're hearing, of course, the U.S. national anthem being played there as President Biden is greeted by the Italian leader, Mario Draghi, here in Rome, a short distance from where we are at St. Peter's basilica.

I've been asking diplomats recently, Ambassador Haass, and I wouldn't be surprised if you've had similar conversations, where I asked them quite directly, are they concerned about the state and the future of the U.S. political system? Do they see, for instance, not just January 6th but the possible return of Donald Trump as a candidate, perhaps even a winning candidate for president again? When you speak to them, do they confide in you that they're generally worried about the state, the health of the U.S. democratic system?

HAASS: The short answer is they do. Indeed, it's topic number one on their minds. The question I get most often, Jim, is what's the new normal and what's the aberration? When they look at us, what's the exception and what's the rule? They're just not sure how to read us anymore.

What I tell them is, you know, I can't answer that, but also there's lots of continuity. You look at U.S. focus on domestic challenges, you look at the tough line on China, getting out of Afghanistan, our position to trade. I also try to remind them after all the differences and all the questions, we're beginning to see some patterns in America's involvement in the world, some of which they like, some of which, quite honestly, will give them heartburn.

SCIUTTO: We're hearing now the Italian national anthem being played as Biden is greeted by Mario Draghi. I will say, it's not my first time to Rome, not my first time looking at an international meeting here. The Italians know how to host world leaders, they know how to host a summit.

Absent, Ambassador Haass, from this G20 meeting, the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, the Russian president, Vladimir Putin. They're going to be coming in long distance. They will be in a Zoom window for this G20 summit.

The White House believes that offers an opportunity to President Biden to lead in person. Is it a significant one?

HAASS: I think it also shows to some extent their own priorities. In Putin's case, probably some content for this grouping. It's only an opportunity if you translate it into reality. Can you get the Europeans, for example, to line up to a serious policy towards China and trade and investment or threatening them with sanctions if they use force against Taiwan. Will the Europeans reduce their dependence on Russian energy? So, we can talk in general about opportunity, but I think there's real questions about what we can translate into policy and reality.

SCIUTTO: On climate, to that same theme, what can be translated into policy and reality, it's not just the climate summit next week, of course, significant in Scotland, some 200 world leaders will be there, but there is a hope that the G20 leaders before they go on to Scotland will make some sort of public commitment, some sort of statement about their own plans to reduce their carbon emissions. Is that a real possibility? Do you expect to see real progress, hard progress on climate here and in Scotland?

HAASS: To be honest, the disappointing answer is no. What you'll get are pledges or commitments that by, say, 2050 or whatever, they'll reach this or that amount of carbon emissions, hopefully net zero. What they won't tell you is what the rate they will get there. China, for example, is talking about 2060, but it's actually going to increase its emissions over the next decade as they phase in not out for coal plants.

So, no, I'm not wildly optimistic and we'll also see how much money they make available to poorer countries to help them adapt to climate change, to transition to green technologies. And so far, at least, people's wallets have not been as open as they need to be.

SCIUTTO: No question. Now, you can argue substantively -- let's listen in for a moment here as we see Draghi, Prime Minister Draghi, greet President Biden. Bear with us, please, Ambassador Haass, as we listen in.

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SCIUTTO: Ambassador Haass, in fairness, in the framework of the budget agreement are $550 billion, more than half a trillion dollars, of investments, including tax breaks, for instance, for solar panels, for electric vehicles, the biggest in history in any U.S. budget so far. It's in the framework. Progressives support it.

From that standpoint, is there some credit due to what they've almost gotten over the finish line, at least in terms of climate as this summit gets under way?

HAASS: The answer is yes, there is some credit due, assuming that happens. But also what's disappointing is what's not happening. We don't see the United States doing anything to place a price on carbon. We're not increasing, for example, certain types of taxes. We're not threatening the Brazilians, who are destroying the rain forest, we're not threatening them with sanctions. We're not putting pressure on Chinese exports that are made from coal.

So, yes, I'm glad to see the $500 million in the budget and hopefully it's spent well. But, again, I'm more struck that for all the priority that rhetorically given to climate, I'm more struck by what's not in the budget and what's not being done.

SCIUTTO: And there are a lot of holes from the initial promises across the board. Ambassador Richard Haass, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

HAASS: Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: And a lot more to cover here in Rome as the president continues a busy schedule, a face-to-face meeting with world leaders. We're going to bring them to you live.

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HILL: President Biden starting his international trip without a vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill, something he was really pushing for as we know before leaving Washington. As of this morning, progressives holding the line, saying they won't vote for that infrastructure bill unless the social safety net package moves along at the same time.

Joining me now, Democratic Congressman from Illinois, Mike Quigley, he's a member of the Appropriations and Intelligence Committees. Congressman, good to have you with us this morning.

So, as of this Friday morning, it looks like another week or so to get this done, to get everything to move forward, to get to that vote on infrastructure as well. Is that enough time?

REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): You know, I think so. I was told last night I'm being overly optimistic. It comes from two things, a lifetime of being a Chicago Cub baseball fan and I've seen this before. You know, as you know, I lived through getting the Obamacare, health care package done, which was just as transformative, just as complicated, it required just as much compromise. And, you know, honestly, it was left for dead several times along the way. So I think we can get this done. It's too important not to.

HILL: We know this was a major gamble for the president yesterday, coming to the Hill, delaying his trip. He is, of course, in Rome today right now meeting with the prime minister of Italy. I know you wanted this done yesterday as well. Do you think it would have helped if the president had insisted yesterday on a vote?

QUIGLEY: You know, I think he did the right mix there. He explained why it was so important, and he left it to their final decision. Lawmakers typically don't like being dictated to, but he explained, you know, basically, you have to take your victories where you can. We can't legislate in the ideal world we all like to live. We have to legislate the reality of the situation, which is complicated by reconciliations, filibusters and people who aren't necessarily willing to compromise.

HILL: When you talk about people who aren't necessarily willing to compromise, have you seen changes on that front among your colleagues?

QUIGLEY: Well, first I'll start with my Republican colleagues. As you see, we're basically dealing in half the tent here, at the Senate, who's going to work with us to get these things done, and a little over half of the House, we only have a three-vote majority.

I was pleased last night to see the progressive caucus say that they support the framework that the president's talking about on reconciliation. I see that as a compromise. I would only suggest that you take your victories where you can. And there's a lot to be proud of with the infrastructure package. A lifetime, largest expansion providing fresh drinking water and wastewater treatment that will help millions of families get safe water. And a lot of that is to create jobs and expand our economy into the next century.

HILL: There has been a fair amount of frustration. I know, as you said, you were laying out what you went through, of course, when it came to Affordable Care Act, Obamacare, but the reality is, I know you tweeted yesterday, this is how the legislative process is supposed to work, compromise is how the sausage gets made.

Your colleague, Debbie Dingell, was on our air yesterday morning prior to this meeting with the president, and she said she had never seen the sausage-making this bad in Washington. With so much mistrust out there publicly within the Democratic caucus, how much of a focus is repairing that within the party?

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