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Ohio Board of Education President Resigns; Report: COVID Vaccines Offer More Protection Than Previous Infection; Congressman Adam Kinzinger Not Seeking Reelection; President Biden Overseas. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired October 29, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:41]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Start of a new hour. Thanks for being with us. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

President Joe Biden's diplomatic mission overseas is under way, as his agenda back home is still in limbo. Today, President Biden, just the second Catholic U.S. president, met with the pope for an unprecedented 90 minutes. He also sat down for a fence-mending discussion with French President Emmanuel Macron, Biden telling President Macron the U.S. was -- quote --"clumsy" in handling that nuclear submarine deal that caused a diplomatic uproar with the longtime American ally.

BLACKWELL: Domestically, divisions within the president's party has put his agenda on hold. For how long, we will see.

Also today, though, Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, outspoken Republican critic of former President Donald Trump, announces that he will not run for reelection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): I stand in awe at the courage of the other nine members in the House who voted to impeach a president of their own party, knowing it could be detrimental to their political career.

Most importantly, though, I admire those everywhere that put their country above their party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Joining us now, Gloria Borger, CNN's chief political analyst, and Astead Herndon, national politics reporter for "The New York Times."

Welcome to you both.

Gloria, let me start with you.

Former President Trump, his statement was just two down, eight to go. But this one, does Kinzinger have outsized significance, considering just how vocal of a critic he was of the former president?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I think it does.

First of all, Kinzinger made it very clear that he was not going to leave politics. He said this isn't the end, effectively, this is just the beginning. And when you look at Adam Kinzinger, what I think is really unfortunate for the Republican Party, this is exactly the kind of candidate that they wanted to attract to Congress.

He has served six terms. He's a veteran. He's conservative. He fought in the Iraq War. He's a national security specialist. And he has decided, because of Donald Trump, that this really isn't a place for him.

Now, we should also point out that he was about -- he got redistricted into a very tough race against a candidate who is pro-Trump. And so he knew that would be an uphill battle, of course, but I think you're going to see Kinzinger try and find a way to stay in politics, whether he decides to run for the Senate or governor, or some have suggested today maybe team up with Liz Cheney at some time in the future. Who knows.

CAMEROTA: But, Astead, I don't understand that calculus, actually.

How is the Senate a more welcoming place for a truth-teller like Adam Kinzinger? I mean, the Republican Party, as Gloria just pointed out, doesn't have room for the Adam Kinzingers anymore, as they have made very clear time and again.

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, the electoral landscape, wherever Kinzinger and Cheney find themselves, if there is going to -- if they're going to have to run in a Republican primary, and they don't -- and they're not going to be openly full-throated supporters of Donald Trump, then they're going to have a tough time, whether that is in the House or the Senate or wherever.

I think it's good to point out that he did get redistricted in that Illinois kind of reshaping of the maps that also contributed to this. But I think this is a long time coming. You have those 10 Republicans who voted for impeachment that Donald Trump has his eye trained on

But even more so than that, you have a base that is simply unwilling to admit the truth about what happened in January 6, to admit the truth about the results of the 2020 election, and has created a litmus test within their own party for wanting politicians who side with them on those things.

And so if you are a Republican who is not there, that is the number one driving issue for them, and you're going to have a tough time existing in this version of the Republican Party, which shows no signs of changing.

BLACKWELL: Gloria, let's turn to President Biden.

And Speaker Pelosi told her caucus yesterday that they should not embarrass the president as he heads overseas. There was no vote on the infrastructure bill last night. Was that an embarrassment or an embarrassment of any significance, as the president heads out?

BORGER: Yes.

In the short term, yes, it was an embarrassment. I mean, this is a president who has been Capitol Hill twice, delayed his trip to Europe to go to Capitol Hill, then gave a speech about the measures, leaves, and then nothing happens.

[15:05:12]

Nancy Pelosi had said there was going to be a vote. That didn't happen. That's short term.

Long term, what they got it yesterday is the progressive saying, we can buy into the spending bill, we're going to do it, we're for it. So we know they're going to vote for infrastructure. We're know they're going to vote for spending. We just have to figure out how they're going to do that and when they're going to do it.

It's kind of a complicated Alphonse-Gaston routine. Who goes first? But in the big picture, I think they're going to get something done. But they didn't look like the president was leading them and saying, I need this. He said, this is existential for me. Then he goes off, and they still don't do it. So it didn't make the president look strong yesterday. Let's put it that way.

CAMEROTA: Astead, that's why it's been so hard for us and I think a lot of people to understand it, was this a win or a loss yesterday? I mean, it was definitely a short-term loss. We get it. But it seemed like they were getting closer. It seemed like maybe they were on the path to progress.

BLACKWELL: But these statements from Sinema and Manchin still aren't yeses.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BLACKWELL: They're still not a: We're in.

HERNDON: I mean, that's the question here, is you can focus on the House side, where the progressives have been clear that they want a commitment from Sinema and Manchin before they vote on that infrastructure bill.

But I think it really is a sign of just the changing nature of how our politics works right now. The president was -- had a such an iron hold on the party in previous years. But these are now empowered lawmakers in Congress who feel, frankly, pretty free of a lot of that political capital.

You have progressives on the House who feel fine telling the president, we're not going to do that before you go over to Europe. You also have two senators who don't even feel the need to explain their positions largely in the public.

And so this is a president that is dealing with a unique set of actors in this Congress who have competing interests. But in the bigger term, they will make both of these bills happen. The problem is, they have spent the whole summer talking about what they are cutting from these bills. And the question will be, can they pitch to the American people that what remains in these bills is enough when we look ahead to the midterms, and then eventually, obviously, reelection?

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Yes, that's interesting.

Go ahead, Gloria.

BORGER: I think that's what the president was trying to do yesterday.

HERNDON: Yes.

BORGER: He was just trying to say, look at what's in this bill, it's going to be transformative. It doesn't have everything I want, it doesn't have everything a lot of members want, but this is going to really change the country.

So they have to continue to try and make that case and stop talking about the price tag and stop talking about what they had to cut from it, but rather talk about what is in it. And I think they're going to -- they're going to try and do that.

But I honestly don't understand why Manchin and Sinema could not have put out statements last night that were a little more positive about what had occurred, because they're doing pretty well. The bill has changed dramatically because of them. And this is how they thank the president by kind of shrugging and saying, well, it's coming along. We think it's looking pretty good.

CAMEROTA: Interesting.

HERNDON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Gloria Borger, Astead Herndon, thank you both.

BLACKWELL: Let's go to Rome now.

Here was the moment President Biden admitted that the U.S. fumbled its handling of a deal that really outraged French officials. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The answer is, I think what happened was, to use an English phrase, what we did was clumsy. It was not done with a lot of grace.

I was under the impression that France had been informed long before that the deal was not going through. I, honest to God, did not know you had not been.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer joins us now from Rome.

Wolf, great to see you.

That was an interesting moment on many levels, I mean, to hear the president be so candid, and that he was under the impression that France had been informed. I mean, that seems like a major diplomatic faux pas.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Yes, he was telling the truth. He was really acknowledging there was a major U.S. blunder in the relationship with France, America's longest ally going back to the Revolutionary War.

The French were totally taken by stunned surprise when all of a sudden the U.S. made an agreement with Australia and the U.K. to sell Australia nuclear-powered submarines. The French had a deal worth, what, $60 billion or $70 billion to sell diesel-powered submarines to Australia.

That has gone away. And what really upset the French and why they recalled the French ambassador to the United States, Ambassador Etienne. This was the first time I think in U.S.-French relations that a French ambassador has been recalled even for consultation as a means of protest to underscore how upset they were.

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And, today, you had the president of the United States acknowledge that there was a mistake. It was surprising to me to see that mistake, because Biden, as you know, Alisyn, he had a lot of history, a lot of background in foreign affairs. He was chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He was vice president of the United States.

The secretary of state, Tony Blinken, has a lot of experience in foreign policy. And, as a Francophile, he was raised in France, speaks French fluently. And he missed it. The national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, they all missed that France would be as upset as they were, understandably so.

And, today, the president acknowledged it. Now they're working feverishly to try to improve the relationship. That's why the president went to the French Embassy here in Rome for the meeting and why Kamala Harris, the vice president, will be going to Paris in a few days to further try to patch up that relationship.

BLACKWELL: Yes, it really was a remarkable moment.

Wolf, let's turn to China now. We know that the Chinese delegation will not be traveling in person to the summit, but it comes after CNN's reporting and the acknowledgement by Taiwan of U.S. military advisers there, of course, the supply chain issues, climate as well, a lot to discuss.

What can get done when it comes to the U.S.-China relationship?

BLITZER: Well, the U.S.-China relationship is critically important. But it's in trouble right now, in part, Victor, as you correctly point out, because of Taiwan.

The U.S. is deeply concerned that China might try to invade, take over Taiwan. The Taiwanese are very nervous. The Taiwan president, she spoke the other day in an exclusive CNN interview with our own Will Ripley, and she made it clear how nervous they are.

And she acknowledged for the first time that there were at least some, very few, but at least some U.S. troops giving some advice, giving some training to Taiwan. That makes the Chinese very, very nervous and anxious. This relationship is in trouble right now.

There's a lot of work that needs to be done. I know that President Biden would have loved to have sat down with President Xi of China and had this kind of face-to-face meeting. I'm told they're going to have a phone conversation fairly soon.

The president of China, President Xi, has not left China since COVID erupted. So he's staying put, at least for now. But they would have liked him to come. They would have loved Putin, the Russian president, to come here. He's skipping this G20 summit as well, as are several other leaders from the G20.

So the leaders may not be here. But there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. And from here, the -- President Biden will be going to Scotland for two days for the climate summit, the COP 26 climate summit, which will be critically important as well.

CAMEROTA: And one leader, or at least former leader, President Obama, unexpectedly is going to be going there as well to push on climate issues. How unusual is that, Wolf?

BLITZER: It's sort of unusual. But he does have a good -- President Obama and President Biden, they have a good relationship.

President Biden was vice president under Obama for eight years. They have a very good relationship. And it is unusual for the former president to show up a few days after the current president undertakes a mission like this, but this is so important.

And President Obama has so much credibility on this issue, especially with world leaders, that the Biden administration thinks this will be helpful in getting this -- these talks going and getting some specific steps going to deal with climate change.

So, they're welcoming it, but it is unusual to see a former president show up and potentially upstage the current president.

CAMEROTA: Wolf Blitzer, great to see you. Thanks so much.

BLITZER: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: OK, a brand-new study just out from the CDC is a big deal, because it looks at the protection from COVID vaccines vs. the protection from natural immunity for people who had suffered from COVID. So we will tell you which one better protects you. BLACKWELL: And the president of the Ohio State Board of Education

plans to resign today. It's amid a political firestorm over an anti- racism resolution that she supports.

She will join us to discuss it next.

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CAMEROTA: Any moment now, we could get major news from the FDA, which is expected to grant emergency use authorization for Pfizer's vaccine for 5-to-11-year-olds.

BLACKWELL: And a short time ago, the CDC issued a report that says that vaccines offer more protection than a previous COVID infection does.

CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen joins us now.

So, tell us first more about this report.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor, a very interesting study.

They looked at more than -- patients in more than 150 hospitals in the United States. And what they found was that folks who were vaccinated, never had COVID before, but were vaccinated, they were five times more protected against hospitalization, in other words, five times less likely to be hospitalized, compared to folks who had prior infection, but no vaccination.

So this is yet another study that shows that vaccination is more powerful than prior infection. So, obviously, everyone needs to get vaccinated. And, in addition, even if you have been infected, you should still get vaccinated.

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CAMEROTA: Elizabeth, I think this is huge.

I mean, I just want to emphasize this, because this is what we hear so many people who are reluctant or resistant to getting vaccinated say: Well, natural immunity is better. I mean, people with huge platforms, as we know, have said, I just -- I'm going to catch it because natural immunity is better.

It turns out, it's not true. It's just not true. And the studies suggest it. Science tells you, it's five times better to get vaccinated.

COHEN: Right.

And people are saying all sorts of things without having any science to back it up. It might sound good, natural infection is better, but that's based on nothing. It's based on air. It's based on nothing. And so, instead, look at these studies like this most recent one from

the CDC that shows that vaccination gives you stronger protection.

BLACKWELL: And we just got in the breaking news from the FDA. They have just authorized the Pfizer vaccine for those younger children 5 to 11, what a lot of parents have been waiting for.

What are the next steps, Elizabeth?

COHEN: So, the next steps here, now that the FDA has authorized the vaccine, is that this now goes to advisers for the CDC. These are outside advisers, external folks, professors, doctors.

They will look at this on Monday and Tuesday of next week. And then very soon thereafter, possibly even the next day, we will hear from Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the head of the CDC. These are expected to be -- these are going to be rigorous reviews, looking at what the FDA has done.

And I want to really emphasize here how many reviews this vaccine has had for children, first, external advisers to the FDA. That happened earlier this week. Now the FDA itself, and they have a team of experts, and then external advisers to the CDC, and then the CDC itself, looking at every little piece of evidence, every clinical trial, everything that's been done that shows so far that this vaccine is safe and effective in children.

If you want to save your child's life, get them vaccinated. Nearly 800 children have died from COVID-19. And plenty of them were perfectly healthy children.You would have had no way of knowing that COVID would kill them. That's in addition to thousands who are hospitalized. And that's in addition to even more who got COVID and had long-term effects like fatigue and brain fog and other issues.

Why you wouldn't want to vaccinate your child, truly, as a mom, is beyond me.

BLACKWELL: Yes, one step closer to protection for young children.

Again, the FDA has now authorized Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine for children 5 to 11. Elizabeth just laid out the steps between this and getting those shots into children's arms.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you.

CAMEROTA: OK, now to that raging debate over school curriculum.

The president of Ohio's Board of Education is losing her job today over a controversy involving anti-racism curriculum.

Laura Kohler is resigning from the position that she's held for the last 5 years. This is at the request of Ohio Governor Mike DeWine. Kohler is a Republican, and she helped draft guidance for the schools in the wake of George Floyd's murder that condemned racism.

It urged the Ohio Department of Education and local school districts to take a hard look at how implicit biases, test questions and disciplinary records and textbooks could impact students of color.

And Laura Kohler is here with us now.

Ms. Kohler, thanks so much for being here. I know this is a busy day for you and an important day for you.

Why are you resigning today?

LAURA KOHLER, FORMER PRESIDENT, OHIO STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION: I am resigning because -- after careful consideration, I think it's in the best interest of the Board of Education and the children at the schools.

CAMEROTA: Because you thought that basically this battle that you became part of, through no desire of your own, was a distraction.

And, as I understand it, at issue with something called Resolution 20. And it was something that you helped draft which urged the Ohio Department of Education to look at its implicit racial bias. Here's just a portion of it.

"The State Board of Education" -- oh, no, sorry. yes -- "condemns in the strongest possible terms white supremacy culture, hate speech, hate crimes and violence in the service of hatred. These immoral ideologies and actions deserve no place in our country, state and school system."

Why was that controversial?

KOHLER: I wish that somebody could tell me.

I really struggle to understand why those concepts are controversial, particularly when you are in the business of educating every student and providing the support and the opportunities that each child needs in order to find success once they graduate from high school.

CAMEROTA: Here might be a clue.

[15:25:00]

Here's what they changed the resolution to, OK? They weren't comfortable with that three-page resolution that you had helped draft. Here's a portion of what they wanted included in it.

"The State Board of Education declares that Critical Race Theory and its tenets have no place in K-12 education. The State Board of Education similarly condemns any standards, curriculum or training programs for students, teachers, or staff that seek to ascribe circumstances or qualities such as collective guilt, moral deficiency, or racial bias to a whole race or group of people."

Would you have signed that resolution? Would you be comfortable with that language?

KOHLER: No. No, I wasn't. And it was particularly difficult in the debate because none of those concepts were included in the original resolution. The original resolution does not speak to Critical Race Theory, and it certainly does not speak to any one race of child feel guilt or uncomfortable about their own ethnicity.

These were each items that had been ascribed to Resolution 20 by, I believe, people who were trying to make a political statement, rather than figure out, what is the best course of action for our children?

CAMEROTA: I mean, as I understand it, Critical Race Theory is a misnomer. I mean, it's not even taught in kindergarten through 12th grade public schools.

But, obviously, as you know, it's become a lightning rod and a catch- all phrase for things that parents don't like. Do you understand how it's become such a lightning rod, since you're on the front lines of this?

KOHLER: That's an interesting question.

I will tell you, personally, I had never heard of Critical Race Theory when I helped draft this resolution. I didn't hear that term for the first time until several months later.

I think that, if you ask 10 people on the street, what is the definition of Critical Race Theory, you're going to get 10 different answers. No one seems to understand what it is, beyond the legal construct that is not taught in the K-12 schools, is not generally taught (AUDIO GAP) and, instead, is considered a graduate level study in how the justice system has been impacted by racism.

CAMEROTA: Look, somehow, as we know, all of this curriculum has become so heated for parents right now. We see it in state after state.

And, Laura Kohler, you have been caught in the crossfire of all of this. We appreciate you telling your story. And we will watch what happens next in Ohio.

Thank you so much for being here.

KOHLER: Certainly. Thank you very much.

BLACKWELL: Well, the brother-in-law of North Carolina Senator Richard Burr, former senator, sold off thousands in stocks minutes after receiving a call from the senator.

This was at the beginning of the pandemic. Now the SEC is investigating. We will be joined by the reporter who broke this story next.

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