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White House: Vaccine Mandate For Private Companies Begins Jan. 4; Eleven White, One Black Juror Selected In Trial In Arbery Killing; Juror Removed In Rittenhouse Homicide Trial For Telling Joke; Small City Sheriff's Department Recruits Big City Cops. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired November 04, 2021 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:31:07]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: The White House today revealing new details in its vaccine mandate plan for private businesses, and the rules applying to two-thirds of the entire U.S. workforce.

A top take away, unvaccinated employees and businesses now have more time to take action. The new deadline is January 4th.

By that date, companies with 100 employees or more will have to mandate vaccinations for their workers or require weekly testing, and that affects 84 million Americans.

In addition, 17 million health care workers and millions of federal contractors will also be impacted.

The White House says violators could be fined nearly $14,000 for each infraction per OSHA rules.

With us now is Dr. Megan Ranney, an emergency room physician and associate deep of public health at Brown University.

Dr. Ranney, the White House mandate has been pushed back to January 4th. This has been a long time coming. The White House originally announced this a couple months ago.

What kind of difference do you expect this to make when it finally goes into effect?

DR. MEGAN RANNEY, E.R. PHYSICIAN & ASSOCIATE DEEP OF PUBLIC HEALTH, BROWN UNIVERSITY: You know, I think a lot of businesses have been waiting for the specifics.

This gives businesses time to ramp up if they haven't already about putting plans in place and how they'll track vaccinations, who is going to pay for the tests and how will they track testing results.

But let's be really clear about how important and effective this mandate is going to be. You need a carrot, which is not getting sick if you get vaccinated. But clearly, for a portion of Americans, you also need the stick,

which is if you don't get vaccinated, you don't get to keep working at this job.

We've seen already the efficacy of mandates, Ana, in companies ranging from United Airlines to health care organizations across the country to of course, Tyson, which makes so many of our chicken products.

I wish the deadline from the federal government were a little earlier, but I'll take January 4. It's better than nothing.

CABRERA: I'll have to get your take on a controversy that's developed in the NFL.

Green Bay Packers quarterback, Aaron Rodgers, testing positive for COVID, according to multiple reports. And now ESPN is reporting that he is unvaccinated.

In August, when asked, Rodgers said he had been immunized. It's reported he tried a homeopathic option instead of an actual FDA- authorized vaccine.

And yet, he has participated in press conferences, indoors, unmarked, in violation of NFL rules.

How big of a deal is this?

RANNEY: I have more questions than answers at this point. Did he really believe that being immunized with a homeopathic remedy was the same as vaccinated?

Did the Packers know he wasn't vaccinated and let him flout the protocols or did he lie to them? And what is the NFL's response going to be?

At the end of the day, the takeaway is the vaccine works. Other strategies don't.

And my other takeaway, of course, is go Bills, go Josh Allen for actually being vaccinated.

CABRERA: I say go Broncos.

Thank you, Dr. Megan Ranney. It's always good to see you. Thank you.

RANNEY: Thank you.

[13:34:06]

CABRERA: Right now, the issue of race is talking center stage in two consequential trials. In one, a judge citing discrimination in jury selection, and in the other, a juror booted for telling a very unfunny joke. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CABRERA: A nearly all-white jury has been selected in the trial of three men accused of murdering Ahmaud Arbury, the black man killed while jogging in Georgia.

The judge says he sees intentional discrimination in the panel of 11 white members and only one black member, but he is still allowing this case to move forward.

CNN's Amara Walker joins us now from Brunswick, Georgia, where the jurors are set to report for this trial tomorrow.

Amara, only one black juror here. Ahmaud Arbery's mother called this devastating. Why did the judge allow this trial to move forward?

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, it's interesting because the judge seemed to side with the prosecution when he said that it appeared to be -- there appeared to be intentional discrimination -- those were his words -- as most of the potential black jurors were disqualified from this process.

[13:40:03]

But at the end of the day, he ended up ruling the defense had met its burden by giving legitimate and non-discriminatory reasons as to why they were striking these jurors.

But the judge also acknowledged, look, he has to basically work within the bounds of Georgia law.

During this two and a half hour back and forth, we saw the state putting its foot down saying the removals had to do with race. Defense saying absolutely not, it had to do with the potential juror's existing opinions about Arbery's murder.

Ana, over the past two and a half weeks, what we've seen has been quite extraordinary, starting with this really drawn-out jury selection process that is supposed to last about a day or two.

And the jury's racial makeup in what has become a racially charged case is really hang over this trial now.

When you look at it, you have 12 jurors, right, including four alternates. But among the 12 jurors, 11, as you said, are white and just one is black.

And they will be deciding whether or not the three white men are guilty of murdering Ahmaud Arbery while he was jogging through this residential neighborhood outside of Brunswick, as prosecutors say, when he was shot and killed with the shotgun.

As you would imagine, the reaction to this nearly all-white jury has been quite swift and strong. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBARA ARNWINE, ATTORNEY: There's so much wrong with what has happened in this trial. It has been racialized from the beginning.

And we want people to understand. Have you ever been a member of Black Lives Matter or have you supported Black Lives Matter? Have you run with Ahmaud or had sympathy with those running with Ahmaud?

And all those were fatal to black jurors. And we actually said the question that was used against black jurors yesterday to strike them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: A lot of passion and anger there. That was attorney, Barbara Arnwine, with the Transformative Justice Coalition. She has been in court every day with Ahmaud Arbery's father.

As you were mentioning, Ana, the jury has been told to report for the trial to begin tomorrow morning at 9:00 but that could change depending on what decisions are made on these motions that are happening now.

Ana, back to you.

CABRERA: Keep us posted. Thanks you, Amara Walker.

For more, let's bring in CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, Jennifer Rodgers.

Just one black juror in a county that's 27 percent black. How does that happen?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Ana, what happens is both sides are given peremptory challenges where they are allowed to remove jurors without a reason at all.

Then if one side thinks the other side has abused those challenges, has in fact used them because of race and not because of an allowable reason, they are allowed to make a challenge.

And that's what happened here. The prosecutor said that defense lawyers had actually been removing people for race and not for a permitted reason.

And so the judge heard more than two hours of argument about this. All that the lawyer has to do to survive a challenge like this is to show any non-discriminatory reason.

So for one person, it might be that they didn't like their answer about, you know, what they think about technology in trials or, you know, that they knew something about the case that wasn't enough to get them removed for cause but gave the lawyers pause.

So all there has to be is a non-discriminatory reason given and then the judge is supposed to allow the lawyers to use the peremptory challenges the way they want to. That's the way the system is set up.

Judges are risk averse. And if they lean over backwards to benefit and support the defense's point of view, which is what happened here, they are much less likely to have a problem on appeal.

So that really is how judges usually do things, which is why I wasn't surprised I this case to see the ruling of the challenges come out the way that it did.

CABRERA: Yet, where is common intelligence all of this because there are obviously racial overtones in this case that's before the jury.

At the very least, why isn't there a requirement for the jury to reflect the racial makeup of the community?

RODGERS: Well, there's a requirement that the jury pool reflect the racial makeup of the community. So, in other words, the people that you call in.

And about a thousand people were called in here, less than half showed up. So you do need to have racial diversity in that group that mirrors the community.

But there's no requirement that the jury chosen actually reflect the racial makeup of the community or look like the defendants.

Remember here, the complaint is that the jury doesn't have blacks on it. The victim was black. The defendants are white. And usually, what the judge wants to do is protect the defendants' views because that's what will reverse on appeal.

CABRERA: We know prosecution wasn't OK with the selection. You mentioned that there was a two-hour back and forth about that.

But the judge ultimately accepted that, saying the defense was able to prove that they had valid reasons beyond race to dismiss the other jurors.

[13:45:04]

Were the judge's hands tied, or did he have other options?

RODGERS: The judge can always rule whichever way the judge finds. He could have found that they did not provide reasons that convinced him and were good enough and could have ordered that the jurors be sat.

The problem is, then you have a jury that's the defense has objected to and, on appeal, if they're convicted, are going to say we had good reasons for wanting to strike those jurors and the judge ruled against us and we want a new trial.

And then the judge is facing the possibility of having the decision scrutinized in that way.

If he does what he, in fact, did and goes ahead with the defense's view on this, that they did find some race-neutral ground to proceed, to strike those jurors, then, you know, he has no issues on appeal.

CABRERA: OK. RODGERS: I think when the judge, on weighing this, is always thinking

about what is likely to get me reversed versus what will just fly and that's the way the judge went in this case.

CABRERA: Jennifer Rodgers, thanks so much for being with us.

RODGERS: Thanks.

CABRERA: There are also new developments in another big trial, this one out of Kenosha, Wisconsin, where 18-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse is accused of killing two people and injuring a third during a protest in Kenosha over alleged police brutality.

Now earlier today, the judge overseeing this trial dismissed a juror after he apparently told a joke, a joke, to a court deputy about the police shooting of Jacob Blake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE BRUCE SCHROEDER, KENOSHA COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: I'm going to talk quite a bit about public confidence and the outcome of the trial.

It's clear that the juror's bias is present and it would seriously undermine the outcome of the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: He made a joke about shooting Blake and why it took so many shots to shoot him. And it was the Blake shooting in August of 2020 that sparked the unrest in Kenosha.

Rittenhouse brought an A.R.-15 style rifle to a protest. His lawyers claimed he was attacked while trying to protect property than he fired his weapon in self-defense.

Listen to this. A sheriff's department in Washington State is targeting new recruits in Times Square of all places and touting a $15,000 bonus, plus no vaccine mandate as part of the draw. The Spokane County sheriff joins us live, next.

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[13:52:24]

CABRERA: Well, here's one way to recruit police officers. This is in New York's Times Square, the crossroads of the world.

An electronic ad from a smaller town sheriff's office across the country in Spokane County, Washington, trying to lure officers from arguably the most prestigious police force in the country, the NYPD.

And the sheriff of Spokane County, Ozzie Knezovich, is joining us now to discuss this.

Sheriff, I really appreciate you taking the time. I don't know if you remember but I started my career in Spokane as a

young reporter. And I know you have been in this community, served that community for a long time, a community that is very near and dear to my heart.

I'm very curious as to why you're taking this approach. Are you having a hard time recruiting officers in your area, or are you trying to make a bigger statement here?

OZZIE KNEZOVICH, SHERIFF, SPOKANE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: Ana, I remember you working here in Spokane.

And this campaign we've been doing for about the last seven months, we're targeting areas and communities that have disrespected their law enforcement.

The Spokane County commissioners, the Spokane Valley City Council last year drafted resolutions and passed them supporting their law enforcement.

So we're out looking for good, qualified law enforcement officers from across the United States. We've targeted Denver, Austin, Portland, Seattle, and we'll be going to southern California next.

So, it's a major drive to get people to come to work for the Spokane County sheriff's office.

We have 20 openings right now. By next year, we'll have another 20. So it's important for us to reach out and explore different ways to recruit individuals to come to work for the sheriff's office.

We have a national problem in law enforcement right now, trying to get people to come to work in agencies, and that's why we're doing this drive right now.

CABRERA: So, what kind of response have you gotten so far?

KNEZOVICH: We will have -- by the end of this campaign, the end of this year, we will have hired more people than we've ever hired. It's been a very successful campaign for us. And we have pulled officers from across the United States to Spokane.

They love the way the community respects the law enforcement. They appreciate the support they get from the community. And Ana, as you know, Spokane is a great place to live.

CABRERA: It is.

[13:55:00]

You have emphasized that your sheriff's office doesn't have a vaccine mandate, so I do wonder, are you targeting officers who don't want to get vaccinated and who are eager to leave because of that reason?

KNEZOVICH: Actually, Ana, that was emphasized by the local media. That's never been our drive. Again, we've been doing this for seven months.

I can't help that local jurisdictions pass mandates. We don't have a mandate here in Spokane County. But for some reason, our local media decided to highlight that fact.

It's never been part of our strategy. It just happens to be one of the things that we get asked a question quite often, do you mandate? And no, we don't.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: So, do you want the people who come to Spokane -- obviously, public health is part of public safety, right, and we know vaccines save lives, and officers obviously have, as we've reported, have more officers have died of COVID-19 since the start of this pandemic than gun violence.

So, do you want these officers vaccinated? Or do you want people who are unvaccinated?

(CROSSTALK)

Are you OK with that?

KNEZOVICH: Again, that's going to be a personal choice for them. As for me, I am vaccinated. I've done multiple PSAs in our community, trying to get people to get vaccinated.

I believe that the vaccine is a good thing. It will protect people from getting sick or possibly dying from COVID.

But one thing that we forget to realize is this is a personal choice that people make concerning their health. And I'm in full support of people making that choice. I just hope that they do the research.

For me, it was pretty simple. I got vaccinated. I support being vaccinated. And I have done multiple campaigns trying to spread the word about getting vaccinated.

So, no, we're not trying to hire people that aren't vaccinated, but we're just not going to mandate that. That's a personal choice.

CABRERA: So, are you critical of the departments or sheriff's offices that do mandate it?

KNEZOVICH: We don't have any sheriff's offices that are mandating it. And that's up to their elected officials.

I disagree with that approach. I can tell you that these mandates have severely hurt my efforts to get people to get vaccinated. People really --

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: With all due respect, Sheriff --

KNEZOVICH: People are angry about that.

CABRERA: With all due respect, here in New York where there's a mandate, at last check, 85 percent of the NYPD have gotten vaccinated. In part, because of the mandate.

Do you know what percentage of your deputies, of your office, your department are vaccinated?

KNEZOVICH: We haven't asked that question. And again, it's a personal choice. And again, I am vaccinated. I support being vaccinated. And we try to get people to get vaccinated. But again, that is a choice.

CABRERA: Why do you think people here in New York or some of these other jurisdictions would be willing to take a big pay cut to come to your jurisdiction?

KNEZOVICH: Well, the pay cut, I'm not sure that they would be taking that big of a pay cut. And the cost of living here is a little bit less than there it is in New York. So that would be very attractive.

Plus, the fact that this community does support their law enforcement and that's what a lot of law enforcement professionals from across the United States are looking for.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: Then why do you think you're having a hard time recruiting people there in your area?

KNEZOVICH: Sorry, Ana. I didn't catch that.

CABRERA: Why do you think -- if -- I agree with you. I love Spokane and the surrounding community. I think so highly of it, warmly of it. Again, going back to my own time there.

But why do you think -- if what you're saying is true, if this is a community that's welcoming their law enforcement officers, why are you having such a hard time recruiting, then, that you have to reach out across the country to try to pull in somebody from the NYPD?

KNEZOVICH: I guess you're missing the point here. We're attracting lateral officers, experienced officers.

If I hire lateral officers, I get them on the street a lot faster than a new hire. Saves the community money. And it gives me a balance of experience within the agency.

So, that's one of the issues that we're looking at. We're looking for experienced, well-trained officers.

CABRERA: Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich, I appreciate you taking the time and joining us today. Good luck in your recruitment. Appreciate it.

KNEZOVICH: Thank you.

CABRERA: That does it for us today. Thank you so much for joining me. Don't forget to follow me on Twitter, @AnaCabrera.

The news continues next with Alisyn and Victor.