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John Negroponte Remembers Colin Powell; Paul Rosenzweig is Interviewed about the Clark Testimony and Trump's Records; Evidence Ruling in the Arbery Trial; Marty Walsh is Interviewed about the October Jobs Numbers. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired November 05, 2021 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And two very different wars, right, in terms of America's experience there. What do you think his legacy is?

JOHN NEGROPONTE, FORMER DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER TO COLIN POWELL: Oh, I think there's no doubt that his legacy will likely be the Powell doctrine and the conditions under which we should use force in the international situations. And basically he was very conservative in that regard. He thought we ought to always exhaust every other possibility. And if we go in, we'd have to have a clear purpose in mind and political support back home and try to make it short. I think that was Colin's sort of essential view.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

NEGROPONTE: And he was -- he wasn't afraid of -- Colin was a brave man. He was unafraid. But he didn't like conflict and he didn't want to send people to war. He really deeply believed that we ought to exhaust all other remedies before considering going into conflict.

SCIUTTO: Yes. For sure.

That famous line, of course, from him, you break it, you own it too, as he very presciently said about Iraq.

You last spoke with him, I understand, about six months ago. Can you tell us what you talked about?

NEGROPONTE: Maybe a little bit more recently. Yes, two or three months ago, yes.

SCIUTTO: Two or three months ago.

NEGROPONTE: Yes, I think. And he told me that -- at that time he told me that his myeloma that he had had -- I thought he said that it had been brought under control. Maybe that was the case. But perhaps his immune system was compromised. I was surprised when he passed away. Very surprised.

SCIUTTO: Well, it's -- it's -- it is a -- it's a sad moment. We know that you and many others will be doing your best to honor him and his memory today. Ambassador John Negroponte, thanks so much for sharing some of those

very personal memories of him.

NEGROPONTE: Thanks very much, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Once again, CNN will have live coverage, of course, of the funeral for General Powell. It starts at 11:00 a.m. Eastern Time. Jake Tapper, Wolf Blitzer. Join them as the country honors the legacy of the former secretary of state.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:36:49]

HILL: Today, the January 6th House committee is expected to interview Jeffrey Clark. He's the former Justice Department official who was integral to helping then President Trump in his efforts to try to overturn the 2020 presidential election. Committee chair, Congressman Bennie Thompson, has said he's also signed about 20 new subpoenas. Those could go out as soon as today.

Joining me now to discuss, Paul Rosenzweig. He's the former deputy assistant secretary for policy at the Department of Homeland Security and former senior council for the Whitewater investigation.

Good to have you here with us this morning. I'm curious, if you were there and if you were questioning Jeffrey Clark, what would you be asking him specifically?

PAUL ROSENZWEIG, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR POLICY, HOMELAND SECURITY DEPARTMENT: I think that the most important questions to ask Mr. Clark would revolve around his specific interactions with others at the Department of Justice and at the White House. Both the president, the vice president, the White House counsel, the acting attorney general, Jeff Rosen. The details of what he tried to do are still obscure, certainly within the Department of Justice. We have a good paper record, but hearing his version of what he was attempting to accomplish and why would lay a baseline for further inquiry.

HILL: In terms of that baseline, how important is this interview, in your mind, overall, based on what we know publicly about where this could lead?

ROSENZWEIG: Well, I think that the attempt to politicize the Department of Justice was probably the single most dangerous effort by President Trump in the post-election time. The idea of the Department of Justice actively interfering in state electoral actions in the way that Clark was advancing should scare every American. And but for the apparent real bravery of people like Jeff Rosen and Pat Cipollone, who rejected that, we might have gone down a very dark path.

So, getting to the bottom of this and figuring out what kind of guardrails we can put in place to prevent it in the future is, I think, vitally important. It's less about Clark himself and more about the institutions. HILL: Also want to get your take on what we're seeing in this fight,

right, by former President Trump to keep these documents away from the committee, to not have the National Archives release them. So a judge yesterday, I thought, made some very interesting points.

So, number one, in noting that, you know, former President Trump's attorneys basically wanted them to go through piece by piece document by document, the judge said, look, that could take years. But she also pushed back on some of the requests from the committee citing that some -- saying that some of them were overly broad and she said there, quote, has to be some limit.

What's your take on that?

ROSENZWEIG: Well, I think it's sort of unfortunate that the judge would put herself in the position of second guessing the House committee. I tend to think that that's a very difficult judgment for a judge to make.

I do think that by and large the judge telegraphed the fact that the view of the executive privilege claim was that it was very, very weak.

[09:40:07]

And that's correct. Most of what President Trump was -- is trying to withhold from the committee is stuff that has never been withheld before. Things like visitor logs, which are generally thought of as public records, and call records and the president's daily log, which reflects his movements and actions throughout the day. Even -- and it gets even weaker, of course, when -- when that is made with respect to people like Steve Bannon, who weren't even employees of the federal government at the time of these events.

Bill Clinton, at his most extreme, never made a claim like this, and he's the -- he previously was the president who made the most extreme claims of executive privilege.

HILL: Well, we'll be waiting to see what happens with this ruling.

Paul Rosenzweig, great to have you with us this morning. Thank you.

ROSENZWEIG: Thank you for having me.

HILL: Just a reminder, tonight here on CNN, a new special report "Trumping Democracy: An American Coup" begins at 9:00 Eastern.

SCIUTTO: That's right, and the investigation is still underway.

Still ahead, opening statements right now in the trial of three men charged with killing Ahmaud Arbery with a nearly all white jury. We're going to be live outside the courthouse there coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:45:46] HILL: Moments from now, opening statements will begin in the high- profile trial of three men accused of murdering Ahmaud Arbery. Arbery was shot in February of last year after a confrontation with two of the defendants, a third defendant took video of those moments.

SCIUTTO: Yes, Ahmaud Arbery was just out jogging. The three white men charged in the death of the unarmed black man. In it, race a central factor in the case. The nation's attention on what has turned out to be a nearly all white jury. Why is that? What's the potential impact?

CNN's Amara Walker, she's live in Brunswick, Georgia, where this is taking place.

Amara, already this morning the judge made rulings concerning what could be key pieces of evidence. Can you -- can you explain what those are?

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, sure thing, Jim.

Yes, just a few moments ago, the judge made this ruling and they represent a double blow to the defense. So basically this means that the jury will be allowed to see the image of that confederate flag on the vanity license plate that was mounted on the front of Travis McMichael's pickup truck, the truck that he was driving the day that Ahmaud Arbery was shot and killed.

What the jury will not be allowed to hear about, though, is the fact that Ahmaud Arbery was on probation the day that he was shot and killed. And the defense, for much of the day yesterday, had been arguing that that should be included, his probationary status, because that could probably go into his mindset as to why he was running away from these three men as opposed to jogging as an avid jogger as contended by the prosecution.

But let's dive a little deeper into this image of this confederate flag on this vanity license plate that will now be shown to the jury as a part of this trial. The defense has been arguing that that image should be limited. Their concern is that Travis McMichael may be depicted as racist and they say that it's improper to comment on his character. But the state argued yesterday that this is evidence of motive, not of character. And it sounds like, obviously, that the judge has sided with the prosecution on this.

So, we know right now -- I'm watching the live feet from inside the courtroom. The judge, for the last few minutes, has been giving directions to the jury. And soon after that, the opening statements will get underway.

What we are expecting to see from the opening statements, from both the state and from the defense, they will both be using and showing these cell phone video that was taken by William "Roddie" Bryan, the other defendant in this murder case, that shows Ahmaud Arbery being chased down before he is shot and killed with that shotgun, allegedly, by Travis McMichael.

Jim and Erica. HILL: We'll be watching for more on this throughout the day.

Amara Walker, appreciate it. Thank you.

Well, a booming jobs report, two critical pieces of legislation that show signs of passing. So what could all of this mean for President Biden's economic agenda? We'll ask the secretary of labor, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:53:15]

HILL: Florida Governor Ron DeSantis says his state will join Alabama and Georgia in a lawsuit against the Biden vaccine requirements. It's DeSantis' latest attempt to undermine the administration's COVID-19 requirements. Two dozen states have now said they'll sue the Biden administration over its new rule. The majority of those states are Republican dominated. The Biden administration is ordering private businesses with 100 or more employees, along with certain health care workers and federal contractors, to be fully vaccinated by January 4th. So that about for about two-thirds of all U.S. workers.

Joining me now to talk about this and this big jobs report, Labor Secretary Marty Walsh.

Mr. Secretary, good to have you with us.

Let's start with that jobs report. Look, this is some very good news for the U.S. economy, 531,000 jobs added in October. The numbers for August and September both revised up. I know you want to keep that momentum going. Part of that will include bringing more people back into the labor force. That labor participation rate.

What are the plans to bring up that number, which has been fairly stacked?

MARTY WALSH, LABOR SECRETARY: Well, I think one of the things that's great today is, in this report, we saw gains across sectors. Where in other months I'd come on here and talk about hospitality and restaurants and how the big gains were there. Today we saw it in business, we saw it in construction, saw it in retail, saw it in hospitality, we saw it in health care. So that's a good sign. Today was a good, solid report. It also shows that since the president has taken office, 5.6 million jobs have been added.

You started this conversation with the emergency temporary standard in some states around the country concerned about it. We have about 3.4 million people that we identified in this jobs report that are not entering back into the workforce because of the coronavirus.

[09:55:02]

And what this would do, the emergency temporary standard would do, is hopefully bring confidence back into workplaces for people to come back into work. So we'll get more people back into the workforce. I think that that's one step that's important. And another piece is, is the infrastructure bill, is that -- that --

that's being debated right now on Capitol Hill. Those two bills are going to be really important as well for job training in the care's (ph) economy and the one in physical infrastructure. So, I feel that we have signs that things are going in the right direction, but we all -- we still have work to do, there's no question about it.

HILL: So, I'm going to touch on all of those points. Let's start quickly with that vaccine requirement. On the timing, this being pushed to January 4th, was that over concerns about further supply chain issues or holiday staffing?

WALSH: No, it's just the way the process works. So when the president announced it in September that we -- that he was going to ask the Department of Labor to come up with a (INAUDIBLE) standard, there's a process that we have to go through. There's a timing issue of it. And it was just -- you know, that's the quickest we could get it out.

HILL: OK.

WALSH: Probably one of the fastest we've ever done in getting it out to -- that's what that's all about. It had nothing to do with supply chain or Christmas or holidays.

HILL: So -- and in terms of talking about the impact that this could have on the labor force, you're pointing to it saying there are millions of people who are worried about going back to work. Knowing that they're in a safe environment could encourage them to go out and rejoin the workforce. We also have polling, though, which I'm sure you've seen, recent polling that finds 37 percent of unvaccinated workers say if they were required to get a vaccine or face weekly testing, 37 percent said they would leave their job.

When you look at those numbers, there's a lot of focus on the trucking industry because of the supply chain issues. We know that specifically there had already been a driver shortage among the trucking industry. And the Truckload Carriers Association says this will be, quote, disastrous. To keep the economy rolling, we need those drivers.

So if there's a massive loss of drivers, who's going to drive those trucks? What's the plan within the Labor Department?

WALSH: Well, to be honest with you, most of those truckers are independent truckers. They're not covered by the ETS (ph). They're individual drivers. They're in their own cabin. So this would not have an impact on them at all. And a lot of industry that work outside, it wouldn't have an impact on them at all either there. So, I mean, I wish that -- I hope the trucking industry goes back and looks at the ETS (ph), reads it through, understands that this is for companies with 100 or more employees. It doesn't cover independent contractors, which a lot of what we see is independent contractors as far as truckers in the shortages that we're facing. In the jobs report today, I think 90 percent of the trucking industry, people working for companies are back. So the shortage is quite honestly in the -- a lot of the shortage is in the independent side of it. And so we do have to work with them to make sure we get them back -- back on the job and get them back driving.

HILL: All right, we'll look for more on that. Now, let's talk about the two bills that you brought up here. So much to cover on this Friday morning. It's a busy Friday. Specifically in terms of infrastructure. If this bill can get signed today, I know a large part of what the administration has been touting are the jobs that this could bring. So can you give us some specifics?

WALSH: Yes.

HILL: When and where could we see those first new jobs? I mean are we talking about Monday? Let's -- you know, put that in perspective for folks.

WALSH: No. Yes, no, I appreciate that. I'd love it to be Monday, but it's going to be -- it would be -- let's assume the president gets the bill on his desk as soon -- in the next few days. When that bill gets signed, that bill then -- the money that's in the physical infrastructure will be -- will be given down to states and cities to be able to do projects, hopefully shovel-ready projects, and move those physical infrastructure bills forward.

And then on the other side of it, the Care's economy, their investments in the Cares economy, in job training, in workforce development, NPS. So we won't see it instantly. You won't see the impacts of those bills overnight. But we will see the impact of those bills into early next year, into next year.

HILL: OK, and then also when it comes --

WALSH: (INAUDIBLE) soon.

HILL: When -- yes, there is that. There is that caveat.

When it comes to the social safety net package, there's been so much made about childcare and how making childcare both more accessible and more affordable for families will hopefully get more parents, and specifically more women, more mothers, back into the workforce. There's also, though, talk about how the hourly wages for child care workers need to increase. They are notoriously low.

I'm curious, where is that funding going to come from? Is it ultimately going to be passed onto the parents?

WALSH: No, actually, that's one area that I feel that when this bill passes in child care that the investments can be made. The infrastructure is there. The problem is many of these child care programs and facilities around the country, quite honestly, have taken one of the hardest hits during the pandemic. They have the physical infrastructure, they have the buildings. What they need is more staff. And so what this plan does is any family who earns $300,000 or less would only pay up to 7 percent for child care, which would free up a lot of families to be able to get back into the job market, number one. Number two, we want -- we're raising the level of child care to high quality care, making investments, federal dollar investments in those child care facilities. And part of that also is lifting up wages and training. So that's one area that we can see --

[10:00:06]

HILL: So part of that funding will come from the government?