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Moderates Seek CBO Score Before A Vote On $1.9 Trillion Bill; White House Waits For House To Pass Agenda Amid Glowing Jobs Report; Jobs Report: 531,000 Jobs Added In October; Opening Statements Begin In Arbery Murder Trial; Pfizer Says Its Experimental Pill Reduces Risk Of Hospitalization, Death From COVID-19. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired November 05, 2021 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So you could tell people here is the money for the roads, the bridges, the Internet, the stuff that we promised you that someone like Joe Biden, who is not caught up in the drama of the moment, could get that done.

Get that pragmatic thing done and then live to fight another day on the Build Back Better agenda.

The progressives that have been in a holding pattern trying to get more of a commitment on the broader spending plan, they let it go and ready to vote on infrastructure or have been.

So I think it seems to me that this is still going to happen but I think in the final hours it is ugly to watch.

Everyone trying to figure out what is the best order to do it in so they could say they were doing the thing they promised their constituents they were doing to do and it is very hard for Biden.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: And after the election, the moderates were saying, if we passed those bills, maybe Terry McAuliffe would have done better.

So the expectation was you come back and maybe they'll pass these bills. Instead, they're saying we still have some questions here.

So there's a role reversal with the liberals. And I think it just makes you wonder what is going to happen to the Democratic Party in the future.

Because at this late hour, if they cannot get together on this, what is going to happen as they head closer and close towards the midterm elections?

They have to prove they're a governing majority and they have not yet been able to do that.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: All right, Gloria Borger, Margaret Talev. Things are moving quickly.

BORGER: Absolutely

BLACKWELL: -- here is a plan. We have to go back and say that is not a viable plan anymore.

BORGER: OK. See you later.

BLACKWELL: All right.

For more on today's job's report and what is happening on Capitol Hill, let's bring in Jason Furman. He's the former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under former President Obama.

Jason, good to have you, especially in this moment.

Considering the conversation we just had, why can't Democrats get this done? As soon as there's a potential plan, it is out the window. What do you see?

JASON FURMAN, ECONOMIST & FORMER CHAIRMAN, COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: It is a very hard puzzle to try to solve with no margin for error. Literally, no margin in the Senate. Effectively, no margin in the House. And a desperate set of views.

You have 99 percent of Democrats on the same page and you need 100 percent in order to get this done.

BLACKWELL: So there are these moderates, five of them, who want the score from the Congressional Budget Office, which estimates the economic impact, the cost of the legislation.

Should Democrats wait for that CBO score, which could take a couple of weeks, before bringing the legislation up for a vote?

FURMAN: I would love to see them vote as soon as possible. I understand the desire to see a score. I think the scores are really important. But we actually know very accurately what the projected year by year cost of this legislation is.

This legislation, as passed now, would reduce the deficit starting in five or 10 years.

Now also a lot of things in it expire. I wish more of that was made permanent. I wish that they'll come back and make it permanent and pay for it.

I don't think we need to wait for the numbers. We know -- we pretty much know what they are.

BLACKWELL: You say you pretty much know what they are but the estimates that have come out on the Joint Committee on Taxation and other independent scores was based on a framework that has changed since. Paid leave is back. There are immigration clauses that have been added back.

So to get a clear picture, some moderate Democrats interpreting the results from Tuesday's elections, want numbers. Why not give that to the American people? To get some clarity?

FURMAN: Yes. Look, I sympathize. I love looking at numbers on these things. I think it is worth taking those into account.

But we have numbers for half of it already. As you just said from the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation. A lot of other pieces we also have numbers on from different places.

So anyone who wants to see year by year numbers, the White House has put them together. Independent analysts have put them together. All of those look roughly the same.

The question is, do you like this legislation or not? Do you think we should invest more in childcare and in preschool, in clean energy, or not?

I think you do. And the sooner you do it, the better.

BLACKWELL: Let's turn to the jobs report, 531,000 jobs added in October. Before we get into the specifics, what does this jobs report tell us about the overall strength of the recovery?

FURMAN: The economy is doing pretty well. It is still seven million jobs short of where it should be. So it has a long way to go. But this was a big step forward.

There were also positive revisions for the last two months. On the unemployment rate, it is much lower than what anyone thought.

The vexing thing in labor markets right now is there's still a lot of workers on the sidelines.

[14:35:02]

BLACKWELL: Yes, the participation rate still pretty flat. We saw wages rose by .4 percent up almost 5 percent from where they were a year ago.

But when you balance that with or against the inflation, the increasing cost of groceries, of gas as well, less impressive when the cost of everything else is up.

FURMAN: Absolutely. You have tight labor market so workers are getting big raises. Those raises are not as big as the inflation that their experiencing. And so, on average, workers are falling behind.

It varies from sector to sector. Leisure and hospitality, for example, have gotten big meaningful raises. But overall, until this inflation comes down or wage growth comes up, it is still going to be challenging out there.

BLACKWELL: All right, Jason Furman, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers in the Obama administration, thank you so much.

FURMAN: Thank you. BLACKWELL: Now after weeks of jury selection in the trial of those who

shot and killed Ahmaud Arbery, we'll go live to Brunswick, Georgia, where opening statements have now begun.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Also ahead, more than half of the states say they will fight the Biden administration's vaccine mandates in court. What that will look like, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:41:07]

CAMEROTA: Opening statements right now in the trial of three white men accused in connection to the death of Ahmaud Arbery in Brunswick, Georgia.

Arbery, a 25-year-old black man, was shot while jogging in February of last year after being confronted by two of the defendants.

BLACKWELL: Now that third defendant also recorded a video of the confrontation.

Today, the judge ruled on two key motions that could end up swaying the jury potentially in this trial.

CNN's Amara Walker is covering it for us.

So what do we need to know about what happened today?

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So just a few moments ago, one of the lawyers for the defense team, specifically Travis McMichael, just wrapped up giving his portion of the opening statement.

They are on recess right now. And we should hear another defense lawyer presenting to the jury very soon.

This is after we heard from the prosecution giving its opening statement for about an hour and a half this morning.

And there was one quite emotional moment in court that happened. That is when the prosecution presented this cell phone video that much of the public has already seen and sparked a lot of outrage across the country when Ahmaud Arbery was killed.

This video was shot by one of the defendants, William "Roddy" Bryan. But this was a longer version of that cell phone video. Never before seen.

And what you see is Ahmaud Arbery being basically being chased down by these three men in their pickup trucks.

What was interesting was that Ahmaud Arbery's mother, Wanda Cooper Jones, had never seen this video before. And as you can imagine, it was a difficult moment for her. But she wanted to stay in court and watch this video. You could hear

audible gasps, according to the poll reporters who were inside of the courtroom, her sobbing. But she stayed for the remainder of that video.

After the prosecution wrapped up its opening statements, Wanda Cooper Jones said she wanted to stay there and remain strong and see the last moments of her son's life.

Now before that video was presented, the prosecutor said there was a reason why Ahmaud Arbery was running away from these men for five minutes. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA DUNIKOSKI, LEAD PROSECUTOR: How do you know Mr. Ahmaud Arbery was under attack by strangers with intent to kill him? Because he told the police this. Stop or I'll blow your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) head off. That is what he said to Mr. Arbery, because he wanted to make sure Mr. Arbery knew Greg McMichael was not playing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: Now for last hour or so, we've been hearing from the defense side, Bob Rubin, one of Travis McMichael's attorneys. And he was focusing on a couple of factors.

Number one, he mentioned that the neighborhood where the defendants live had been experiencing at the time an uptick in burglars and break-ins.

And the second point he highlighted was that Travis McMichael, a 35- year-old man, had served in the U.S. Coast Guard and part of his training included use of force and that compelled him to feel like he had to protect his community.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB RUBIN, ATTORNEY FOR TRAVIS MCMICHAEL: The training he had was not just classroom training at Flatsy (ph). It is scenario-based training. It is repetitive training.

So that if you're ever in a real-life situation where you need to make use of force decisions, you're relying not just thinking back, you're relying on muscle memory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: Now Bob Rubin, the defense attorney there, also said that Travis McMichael actually put himself at risk by trying to detain Arbery.

All three defendants have pleading not guilty to these murder charges, among others. [14:44:58]

Travis and Greg McMichael, they have been claiming that they were trying to conduct a citizen's arrest on Ahmaud Arbery because they suspected that he participated in some of the burglaries in the neighborhood.

And they said that they were acting in self-defense when Ahmaud Arbery was shot and killed.

As for William "Roddy" Bryan, he is maintaining that he had no part in the killing.

Back to you.

BLACKWELL: Amara Walker, for us in Brunswick, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Make sure you tune in tonight for a CNN special report. It is called "TRUMPING DEMOCRACY." Key Republicans are going to speak to our own Jake Tapper about just how close America came to losing democracy. And Jake is going to join us next with a preview.

BLACKWELL: Also ahead, it could be a major step forward in treating COVID-19. Pfizer says that its experimental COVID drug reduces the risk of hospitalization and death by close to 90 percent.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:50:29]

BLACKWELL: Back to Capitol Hill now. The latest we have is the progressives are now not on board with the possible plan of letting infrastructure pass with voting sent to the president without moving forward also on the social spending bill.

You know, a small number of moderates found that they would not vote for the larger spending bill without seeing a CBO scoring, which is an estimate on how much it will cost. They want to see that first.

CAMEROTA: Luckily, here to make sense of all of this, CNN chief Washington correspondent and anchor of "THE LEAD," Jake Tapper.

Jake, I was naive enough to think, when we knew we would be interviewing you today, this morning, that we might actually be watching a vote on one or both of these bills while you were on.

But now, why are they pumping the brakes?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINTON CORRESPONDENT & CNN ANCHOR, "THE LEAD": Well, there are a number of moderate Democrats, Abigail Spanberger from Virginia, Josh Gottheimer from New Jersey, and others, who want what's called a CBO score.

It's basic an explanation of what's going to cost what and for how much and how long and how the funding will work by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office. And they want that CBO score before they agree to vote on the Build

Back Better Act.

A CBO score, of course, is not something that just, you know, takes an hour on the back of a napkin. It takes weeks. It's a very intense process.

So that's what the moderate Democrats want. And as of right now, there's an impasse.

I'm getting texts as we speak. And the latest I've heard from members of Congress is that there's a proposal to vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill today.

And on the rule that would just basically introduce the legislative process for the Build Back Better Act, not actually the bill itself today.

So that's the latest I've heard from Capitol Hill, from members of Congress, is that's a proposal right now. that there will be a vote on the infrastructure bill, and then the rule on the Build Back Better Act.

And then perhaps a delay on the actual vote on the Build Back Better Act once the CBO score comes out.

But, look, I mean, it's a very messy process, and very frustrating for a lot of Democrats who would like to have this accomplished, which is, by the way, most of them. Most Democrats are on board with both.

But there are some holdouts on Build Back Better. And there's some holdouts on infrastructure.

This is a legislative process. This is what you get when you don't have an authoritarian rule.

BLACKWELL: Jake, is the theory behind the strategy of not moving forward with the CBO, which could take a couple of weeks, is that every day that Democrats do not get this done, it comes with a political cost to the party, to the president?

TAPPER: Well, we saw a political cost earlier this week, right, in the election results all over the country.

It's difficult for members of the Democratic Party to go forward Monday, Tuesday, and argue, we're getting things done in Washington when basically it has been, you know, a log jam.

I don't know what political costs they pay for from voters by having a delay of a week or 10 days on a vote on the Build Back Better Act, but there's a thing such as legislative momentum. We've seen that play out already.

The reason that the Democrats keep imposing these deadlines that they blow through is because of the hope that having put a deadline on it will make people commit to the actual process and commit to vote for it.

We have seen the momentum for the Republicans to vote for the infrastructure bill. Remember, 19 Senate Republicans voted for it, Republicans in the House.

They have lost a number of Republicans, House Republicans because the momentum is not there.

So that's --

CAMEROTA: Jake, let me drill down on that for a second.

How can Republicans in the House say that they don't stand or modernizing airports and bridges. Just because the momentum is slowing down, why don't Republicans want what's in that infrastructure, bipartisan infrastructure bill?

TAPPER: Oh, we were talking about whether or not they actually support the legislation. I'm not talking about that. You're talking about whether or not they support something that they said they supported three weeks ago.

This doesn't have to do whether they actually support it. It has to do whether or not they want to be seen as "supporting Biden agenda," quote unquote.

[14:54:58]

I mean, look, Adam Kinzinger, the congressman from Illinois, told me before that the vote on impeachment, he thought there could be anywhere from 25 to 35 House Republicans that vote for impeachment. There actually were only 10.

It's not necessarily a question of what they think is right. It's a question of what they think will help them get reelected. Don't be naive. Come on.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: This is a sobering conversation. I appreciate that.

TAPPER: Come on.

BLACKWELL: So let's talk about your documentary that's coming up tonight. "TRUMPING DEMOCRACY" airs this evening.

You're hearing from Republicans who worked to stop the president's attempted coup. I think we have a clip of it.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Yes, if I could introduce it, because it does require a little set up.

So, I mean, this is not just about January 6th, which obviously was a horrific day, this was about the campaign that Trump waged against democracy, against having legal, accurate votes counted.

And one of the moments that was a really crystallizing moment for people like Adam Kinzinger, like Liz Cheney, conservative Republicans who broke from Trump when they saw him trying to roll over democracy.

One of the key moments was when the Texas attorney general, Ken Paxton, introduced this insane bill, this insane lawsuit, rather, in which he was trying to get states disenfranchised, just writing off their votes.

It was a lawsuit full of lies. It was a lawsuit full of just crazy claims. It was not worth the paper it was printed on. We talked about that in the document.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): As the amicus brief was being prepared, I was urging my colleague who was preparing the brief not to do it.

UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: I didn't sign it because I thought it was just wrong, frankly, and that's when I started getting some phone calls from people going, hey, wait a minute, aren't you going to fight this thing? This election was stolen.

TAPPER (voice-over): In the end, 126 House Republicans signed their names to it. Adam Kinzinger, a Republican congressman from Illinois, did not.

(on camera): How many people that signed on to it do you think actually believed the nonsense in it?

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): If I had to guess, I'd say five to 10.

CHENEY: I think there was a sense among those who did sign it, at least some of them was well, we're going to do this to placate President Trump, and I thought that was not doing our duty.

Kevin McCarthy told me directly that he wasn't going to sign it. I said, good, this is not a brief we ought to be associated with. And then a few hours later, he signed it.

KINZINGER: The brief went out without Kevin McCarthy's. And then the next day, claiming that he was inadvertently left off, and he signed on to it. That was bad.

He initially didn't want to sign it. And realized what was pressure there.

What you see there are people that sign onto something they don't believe to avoid political pressure. It's leaders that are afraid of their base and not leading their base.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So that's just the crazy Texas lawsuit.

That's not everything. This is one part of the puzzle. But we also go into some of the claims in that lawsuit that were just out right deranged. That didn't deserve anybody's signature.

You know, you could argue maybe you could see somebody like Paul Gosar or Marjorie Taylor Greene signing something like that or Matt Gaetz perhaps.

But the idea that 127 House Republicans signed this, including all three current and past Republican leaders, just embarrassing.

CAMEROTA: That's really interesting, Jake, because we hadn't heard those details before. That was really interesting for you to go and take a closer look inside there for us.

BLACKWELL: Looks like a fascinating documentary. Looking forward to it.

Jake Tapper, thank you. We'll hand it back in an hour.

TAPPER: Thank you, sir. Good to see you guys.

BLACKWELL: Likewise.

And be sure to join Jake for his new CNN special report, "TRUMPING DEMOCRACY, AN AMERICAN COUP." It begins tonight at 9:00.

Well, this could be a step forward in the fight against COVID. Pfizer says the experimental pill reduces the risk of hospitalization and death from the coronavirus by 89 percent.

CAMEROTA: Joining us now is CNN senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen.

Elizabeth, this sounds very significant. What do we know about this clinical trial?

DR. ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, it is significant. What's also significant is a pill by Merck, an antiviral where results were announced a couple of weeks ago.

Both of these really could be a game changer once people get COVID.

Now, it's always best to be vaccinated and not get COVID. But if you do get COVID in the future, there will be an antiviral pill, either this one or the one from Merck or possibly both.

Let's look at the Pfizer clinical trial and see what they found.

So they took about 775 people with early COVID - I mean early. They were within three days of symptom onset. And the folks who they gave a placebo to.

[14:59:54] So about half of the group got a placebo, a pill that does nothing, and 27 of them ended up in the hospital over time, and seven of them died.

The folks who received the real pill, the real antiviral pill, only three of them ended up in the hospital, and none of them died. So that is quite notable.

There were no side effects detected.