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Insurrection Probe; Infrastructure Negotiations Drag On. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired November 05, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01]

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: The folks who received the real pill, the real antiviral pill, only three of them ended up in the hospital, and none of them died. So, that is quite notable.

There were no side effects detected, but, of course, this is a small group of people, 775. There's going to be questions about what happens when you give it to a larger group of people, but, still, these are promising results. And Pfizer says that they may be applying for emergency use authorization as soon as Thanksgiving -- or by Thanksgiving -- Victor, Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Really interesting development.

Elizabeth Cohen thank you.

And tomorrow morning on CNN, our friends from "Sesame Street" are back for a new town hall. Join Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Erica Hill, Big Bird and more to get answers about your questions for kids. "The ABCs of COVID Vaccines," a CNN/"Sesame Street" town hall, airs tomorrow morning 8:30 a.m. Eastern.

It's the top of the hour. Hi, everybody. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

We're hearing, to put it lightly, some frustration from some House Democrats over new demands from moderates in the party. It's holding up the vote on the two bills that make up the president's agenda, the bipartisan infrastructure package, also the larger Build Back Better legislation.

There are a few moderates who want a score from the Congressional Budget Office, which is an estimate on the cost and economic impact of the legislation, before they move forward with those votes.

CAMEROTA: And so that demand goes against President Biden's wishes today. He urged his party to move forward with the vote, saying it's needed to continue the momentum after today's jobs report, which was good.

It was great. It showed a big rebound. The economy added more than 530,000 jobs in October and unemployment dropped to 4.6 percent. Hourly wages also increased by nearly 5 percent.

CNN's Phil Mattingly is at the White House for us.

But we begin with CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

Manu, things seem to be changing by the minute. What's happening with the vote?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Democratic leadership came in today confident that they could finally get Joe Biden's agenda through the House.

At the moment, that confidence has all but evaporated. They're now scrambling to come up with yet another plan to get at least part of the Biden agenda through.

Now, at the beginning of the day, they had plans to have a vote on approving the rule that would -- it's essentially a procedural vote that would govern the floor debate of the larger bill, a $1.9 trillion economic package, a sweeping expansion of the social safety net, and have a vote to approve that bill. After that -- and then they would follow that with the approval of the $1.2 trillion bipartisan infrastructure plan that has been awaiting action in the House since August.

Now, they have faced pushback from moderate Democrats all day who have called for an official cost estimate from the Congressional Budget Office of that $1.9 trillion plan. About five of them are holding out. Now, behind the scenes, they have been meeting with the speaker, trying to get to some sort of resolution, but they have not gotten any sort of resolution.

And the problem for the Democratic leaders is getting that so called CBO score will take about a week, maybe two weeks, maybe even longer. So that could delay things for some time. So now what Democrats are -- leaders are floating to their caucus is something different, approve the rule that would govern floor debate, follow up with a vote on final passage of the infrastructure bill, and then ultimately delay the larger package, a vote on a larger package, until later, potentially, when that CBO score ultimately is released.

So that could essentially mean pushing back final action on that larger bill up until either around Thanksgiving, maybe even after Thanksgiving, or perhaps even later. So, at the moment, it's unclear if that will pass muster from progressives in particular, who have demanded that both these bills move together at the same time.

One progressive member told me he expects about 20 of those members to push back, potentially vote against the infrastructure bill if they do go down that route. But there are still these discussions ongoing.

Now, at the moment, there's a meeting of the Congressional Black Caucus, who -- one member who just emerged, Bennie Thompson, indicated to us that he believes that most of the members of the Black Caucus would support this new leadership plan to separate these two bills. But, ultimately, it matters if they have 218 votes in the House to get

the infrastructure bill done and get that rule approved. And that's what leadership is scrambling on right now as they are looking to open up debate on that rule in just a matter of minutes, we are told.

So we will see how this ultimately plays out. But at the moment, it seems like they're about a punt again on that larger bill, and we will see if it ever gets out of both chambers of Congress, guys.

BLACKWELL: Manu, thank you.

Let's go now to the White House.

Phil, what's the reaction from the White House to this demand now for the CBO score before a vote?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: They have been very similar to Democratic leaders, in the sense that they have been scrambling throughout really the course of the last 24 hours trying to address what those moderates, what that group of five moderates is asking for here.

[15:05:10]

In fact, guys, the White House economic team put together their own preliminary budget estimate that they circulated to all House Democrats last night. Now, obviously, it isn't a CBO score, but it was modeled in a way to make it as close to a CBO-like score as possible, hoping that that would be enough to perhaps check the box that these moderates have made clear they need checked in order to move forward.

The president's top negotiators, Brian Deese, the director of the National Economic Council on Capitol Hill throughout the morning, meeting with these members, meeting with the speaker's team, trying to figure out a path forward. And I think it just underscores right now the urgency, after so many blown deadlines, that today was supposed to be the day.

Today could have been to the day. And today was the first day the president explicitly said, not just pass my domestic agenda, but pass it -- quote -- "right now." And it was in those remarks that you kind of got the sense of the urgency of the moment, particularly given what else was happening today.

Those remarks were about the jobs report, Alisyn. You noted 531,000 jobs added, beating analyst estimates, 4.6 percent unemployment, down from over 6 percent when the president took office. It's a message that the White House desperately wants to get out, that the economy is not just inflation. The economy is jobs added. The economy's wages growing.

And it's also an economy that would be bolstered, White House officials believe, by the president's domestic agenda, which they thought they had an opportunity to move through the House today. And if you take a look or take a listen to how the president frame those jobs numbers, you get the message they're trying to convey. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: the job creation in the first full nine months of my administration is about 5.6 million new jobs -- a record for any new President.

That's a monthly average of over 60,000 (sic) new jobs each month, 10 times more than the job creation at three months before I took office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: So, guys, obviously this is still a work in progress on Capitol Hill. But you had White House officials looking at this day around 8:30 a.m., when those jobs numbers came out, thinking not only could you have gotten a gangbusters jobs report, but also both bills through the House.

And right now, that doesn't look like it's going to happen, at least not yet, obviously still working on it. White House officials deeply engaged, but still very open question about the agenda, guys.

BLACKWELL: Phil Mattingly at the White House, Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thank you both. A lot to discuss.

Let's bring it now Jonathan Kott, served as senior adviser to moderate Democratic Senator Joe Manchin. Catherine Rampell is with us too, CNN economics and political commentator and a columnist for "The Washington Post."

Jonathan, let me start with you.

Alisyn and I have spoken with moderates in Congress for, what, months now who have been deriding progressive, saying, do not hold up the president's agenda. They should vote on the infrastructure bill, stop standing in the way of progress. And now we have got moderates who now say, we won't vote unless we get the score.

Phil just outlined some of the numbers they're getting. Why continue to hold up the president's agenda with this demand today?

JONATHAN KOTT, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: I don't think this is an outlandish demand. They'd like to know actually how much that this bill is going to cost and what effects it's going to have on the economy. That's actually a pretty standard thing we do in Congress.

It does seem odd to me that we have had an infrastructure bill that was passed by the Senate with overwhelmingly bipartisan support that has just sat there. And then progressives just tried to rush through another bill and demanded that they be done at the same time.

That to me seems more ridiculous than actually asking how much a bill is going to cost and what effect it's going to have on the economy. This is $2 trillion. (CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: I hear you, but, Jonathan, isn't this the 11th hour?

(CROSSTALK)

KOTT: This is only the 11th hour because they have made it the 11th hour. There's no reason for it to be the 11th hour.

CAMEROTA: But, also, President Biden got the impression that it was going to happen.

I mean, he has been speaking with the moderates and with the progressives. So there was a feeling that today it was going to be able to happen. People were counting, were whipping the vote. And so it feels like this -- something changed at the 11th hour.

KOTT: These moderates asked for a CBO score a few days ago. This is not a new thing.

So, again, there's one bill that is passed, that is done, that 100 percent of the Democratic Caucus in the House and Senate agree on. It is an infrastructure bill that would do tremendous benefit to the economy and the country.

I don't know why they just won't pass that and then continue to work on another bill that almost all Democrats currently support, but is enormous. And, I mean, they have said it's transformative. Shouldn't we take our time and get it right, instead of getting it fast?

Also, these deadlines we just keep putting on ourselves only hurt ourselves. They only hurt Democrats, and no voter cares at all about what process and do we have a motion to commit and what the rule is. Voters want their elected officials to get shit done. And we are not doing that now.

BLACKWELL: John, let me take that to you.

CAMEROTA: Technical term.

BLACKWELL: Yes, Alisyn, got to say that. Good on that.

[15:10:01]

John, to you.

There's a large part of the party that believes that they need to get it done and get it done quickly, and the moderates are costing them politically by potentially dragging this out, that also the view from the White House, potentially.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And that's the view of the overwhelming elements of the Democratic Caucus.

What we're experiencing and have for some time, is the fact that, with majorities this narrow, any single senator can be the king, in terms of determining whether this passes or not. And any group of four House members can do the same thing. And that's exactly what they're doing.

But there's no question that the people who have held up this bill, both of these bills in both the House and the Senate, are those moderate outliers. The -- both of them would have been done by now had these negotiations proceeded at a more rapid pace.

And what we're actually seeing play out is the reason why President Biden, Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker, Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader, have all wanted to get this Build Back Better bill done at the same time, because they're concerned they could never get to yes with some of these members.

And we're seeing how difficult it is right now.

CAMEROTA: Catherine, the day started out in such a promising way for President Biden.

I mean, he came out to tout these new jobs numbers, which were higher than analysts expected. The unemployment rate went down. And so where do you feel we are at this hour?

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN ECONOMICS AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yes, I liked your analogy before the Democrats seem to be snatching victory -- or -- excuse me -- defeat from the jaws of victory, because the day did start out pretty strong.

The jobs report was better than expected. The revisions to previous months were positive. So things were not as bad in the last couple of months as we had initially thought. There were broad-based jobs gains through many sectors of the economy.

So there was a lot to celebrate. And you heard Biden come out and try to elevate that good news, but still be mindful of the fact that there was more work to be done, both in terms of what Americans care about. They care about things beyond jobs. They care about what's happening with prices, and inflation has still been quite high in recent months.

And, of course, Biden made the case that his agenda is the way to make further progress, both on inflation and a number of other metrics that Americans care about. But, today, it feels like we're back where we were. This afternoon, I should say, it feels like we're back where we were yesterday and the day before and a month ago, where we're back at this stalemate.

And the Democratic Party just kind of can't get it together to take the win on either piece of legislation that Biden has put forward. It's frustrating, I'm sure, for both the president and many of his followers.

BLACKWELL: All right, Jonathan. Katherine, John, thank you.

I'm going to go back to Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

You have got some new developments. What's going on?

RAJU: Yes, actually, the speaker's making clear that they're going to move forward with this strategy to essentially separate these two bills. They're going to move forward with votes that are going to happen tonight on a rule that would open up, essentially advance towards that larger $1.9 trillion bill, and then a final passage vote of the bipartisan infrastructure bill that has been awaiting action in the House for months.

Now, the question is, when will they have a vote on final passage on the larger expansion of the social safety net plan? They have not said, but all signs are indicating that they are almost certainly going to point -- punt on that until a later date, amid those demands by the moderate Democrats to have a full accounting by the Congressional Budget Office, an effort that could actually take weeks.

Now, the question here is whether they're going to have the votes ultimately to do this. For such a long time, they have linked all these issues together because of the demands by progressives that the infrastructure bill and that social safety net expansion move together at the same time.

Now I'm hearing some progressive pushback on this. One member estimated about 20 members could vote to scuttle this. That would be enough to derail certainly the infrastructure plan, assuming there are not enough Republican votes to offset those defections. But, nevertheless, it's a gamble of sorts by the leadership, saying at least let's try to get some of this legislation through.

Nancy Pelosi put out a letter to her caucus saying they want to make progress. So they're pushing ahead on that. But it looks like they're separating out these two bills and making a decision here, urging the caucus to fall in line, at least behind part of it. But we will see if it backfires.

They have been trying for weeks to get this done, months to get this done, struggling and failing. But can they get it done here in a matter of hours? We will see -- guys.

CAMEROTA: OK, Manu Raju, thank you for bringing us the very latest from Capitol Hill.

OK, now to this. The Trump Justice official who pushed election fraud claims, he testified in front of the January 6 Select Committee today. We have more on what happened ahead.

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BLACKWELL: In the investigation into the January 6 Capitol attack, former DOJ official Jeffrey Clark was subpoenaed.

But, today, CNN just learned that he did not answer any questions. Sources say that instead he provided a letter from his attorney that claimed that Clark could not provide testimony unless a court rules that his conversations with former President Trump were not privileged.

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CAMEROTA: Clark, you will remember, was one of the DOJ officials who pushed the former president's bogus election fraud claims.

He also drafted a proposal for the Justice Department to announce investigations into the 2020 vote tally in Georgia.

CNN legal analyst Jennifer Rodgers joins us now. She's a former federal prosecutor.

So that's interesting. So he's basically saying the executive privilege argument. Is that what happened today with Jeffrey Clark, and why is he so significant?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, he's significant, Alisyn, because he was the one inside DOJ pushing for false information, pushing to tell Georgia that they didn't have to certify and really trying to orchestrate a coup on the part of the Justice Department to help Donald Trump steal the presidency and remain in power.

It does sound like he's asserting executive privilege. I read earlier that former President Trump decided not to assert executive privilege. So I don't know if that's incorrect or not. It does, in fact, from this letter, sound like that is what Clark is claiming. He certainly can't be claiming attorney-client privilege because he even as part of DOJ is not the president's lawyer for those purposes.

So it does sound like he is pushing this executive privilege claim that many others also have been pushing in trying to not testify in front of the committee.

BLACKWELL: And, of course, Jeffrey Clark is the person who drafted that letter that he wanted DOJ to send to the Georgia state legislature to delay the certification of the vote.

And we have learned that the criminal probe that's happening down there led by the DA, Fani Willis, that every kind of incremental additional letter that comes from Trump's attorneys, statement that's made is part of this larger investigation. How do those subsequent actions play into that investigation, Jennifer?

RODGERS: Well, it depends what the DA is considering charging.

If she is looking at a conspiracy, then the conspiracy continues until someone is caught or someone leaves the conspiracy. So, even after the election is over, even after, frankly, Joe Biden takes office, that conspiracy can continue if it hasn't been dissolved in some fashion legally.

So she can move all of that in if, in fact, she's charging a conspiracy or some sort of racketeering enterprise, anything that involves more than just an incident that happens like on one day. So she's probably looking at a broader charge like that.

CAMEROTA: OK, Jennifer, now we need to talk about Rudy Giuliani. CNN has obtained this videotaped deposition, OK? So he was under oath. This is the anatomy of a conspiracy theory, OK? This is how it all gets planted, the disinformation, because, under oath, he admits he really had no idea what he was talking about. So this is about the Dominion Voting Systems.

You will remember when that was a big issue they were trying to push that there was some sort of conspiracy and that they had changed votes. Here is Rudy Giuliani in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We had a report that the heads of Dominion and Smartmatic, somewhere in the mid- teens, 2013, '14, whatever, went down to Venezuela for a get-to- know meeting with Maduro, so they could demonstrate to Maduro the kind of vote-fixing they did for Chavez.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You say the heads of Dominion and Smartmatic?

GIULIANI: Yes, that's what I was told. Before the press conference, I was told about it.

Sometimes, I go and look myself online when stuff comes up. This time, I didn't have the time to do it. It's not my job, in a fast-moving case, to go out and investigate every piece of evidence that is given to me. Otherwise, you're never going to write a story. You never come to a conclusion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Exhibit A, Jennifer, that he heard a rumor about something that happened in 2013. He didn't have time to look it up. So he just spread the disinformation.

RODGERS: Yes, it's really incredible.

I would have thought that Giuliani would have enough savvy to at least, I don't know, cover it somehow. I mean, he really just admitted to lying and falsifying and creating these conspiracy theories. He really, really hurt himself and his defense in this lawsuit in this deposition.

I just don't know -- I don't know what he's thinking of. It's professional misconduct. It's an embarrassment. And he's going to lose this case, I think.

BLACKWELL: One more for you, Jennifer.

It's been a little more than two weeks since the House voted to refer Steve Bannon over to DOJ for a criminal referral there. Would you have expected some action, some public response from the attorney general by now?

RODGERS: I would, actually. Listen, they certainly need a few days to look at the facts, to dig into the law, to meet and confer and decide what to do. It's not that complicated. They really don't need more than a few days to do this.

[15:25:08]

Listen, I have thought from the beginning that Merrick Garland was reluctant to do anything around former President Trump or any of his close allies. I think he's reluctant to do this. But it's now sitting in his lap and he's got to act on it. And there's no reason it's taking this long.

BLACKWELL: Wow.

All right, Jennifer Rodgers, thank you so much.

RODGERS: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: And, tonight, join Jake Tapper for a new CNN special report, Trumping Democracy: An American Coup." It's tonight at 9:00 right here on CNN.

Also, witnesses describe Kyle Rittenhouse's demeanor the night he fatally shot two men during protests in Kenosha, Wisconsin. We have got the latest from this trial ahead.

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