Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Democrats Celebrate Infrastructure Victory; Tragedy in Houston. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired November 08, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Brand-new hour. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

The medical examiner has released the identities of all eight people killed in Friday's deadly crowd crush in Houston. The oldest victim was just 27 years old. The FBI is now assisting the Houston police in a criminal investigation.

And we now know the city's police chief's spoke with rapper Travis Scott in the hours just before the tragedy, warning about the energy of the crowd. Scott just announced that he will pay for all of the funerals. He's also promised to provide free counseling for all affected.

Authorities and concertgoers want to know why he kept performing during the chaos.

BLACKWELL: So the official call of a mass casualty event happened at least 30 minutes before the show ended. Witnesses say Travis Scott did stop several times, but then continued.

In this clip on social media, two people there at the concert are seen screaming at the staff to stop the show. Watch. We're also learning that a detailed operations plan for the Astroworld music festival there in Houston did not include a specific contingency for a surging crowd incident.

CNN's Rosa Flores is there in Houston.

So, first, tell us what the police chief, if we know, discussed with Travis Scott before the concert.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We do.

HPD sending out a tweet expressing, that the meeting was brief and respectful. Here's what. He said -- quote -- "I met with Travis Scott and his head of security for a few moments last Friday prior to the main event. I expressed my concerns regarding public safety and that in my 31 years of law enforcement experience, I have never seen a time with more challenges facing citizens of all ages, to include a global pandemic and social tensions throughout the nation. I asked Travis Scott and his team to work with HPD for all events over the weekend, and to be mindful of his team's social media messaging on any unscheduled events.

"The meeting was brief and respectful and a chance for me to share my public safety concerns as chief of police."

Again, this is from the chief of police here of the Houston Police Department. He went on to say that all of this is under investigation, Alisyn and Victor. It's a criminal investigation involving homicide and narcotics divisions, and that it's very early in the investigation -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Rosa, tell us what you have learned about this very detailed operations plan, meaning the plan. They had contingency plans in case something went wrong. And I know that it talked about if, God forbid, there were an active shooter or extreme weather.

And did they really not consider a massive crowd surge?

FLORES: This is a 56-page report. And it does not include a contingency plan for a surging crowd.

As you mentioned, it does mention a few key indicators and a few key concerns, some of those, a weather event, rioting, civil unrest, a mass casualty event, and also an active shooter. What it says about crowds is that the key is for that to be identified early.

In another section, it says that the code word Smurf was to be used during a mass casualty event because the word dead was not supposed to be used over the radios. Now, it does go on to say -- and this is very interesting, given all the lawsuits, both the criminal investigation and also on the civil side -- it does give the chain of command of who can stop the concert.

[15:05:10]

And, according to this document, there's two individuals who can stop the concert. It's the executive producer and the festival director. Those are the only two individuals that are authorized to do that.

Now, from what we have heard from HPD, at 9:38 p.m. on Friday, that's when they declared that a mass casualty event. And what authorities have said from the get-go is that that's when they went to the promoter to stop the concert. And we know from HPD that that concert was stopped at about 10:10 p.m.

So what happened during that gap? It's going to be very interesting to see and I'm sure it's going to be part of the investigation -- Alisyn and Victor.

BLACKWELL: Rosa, I know you have learned more about the people who were killed at this festival. What can you tell us?

FLORES: We're learning more about their stories and also their names.

Here are their names. Now we have all eight of them, 23-year-old Rodolfo Pena from Laredo, 21-year-old Franco Patino from Illinois, 20- year-old Jacob Jurinke from Illinois, 16-year-old Brianna Rodriguez here from Houston, John Hilgert, 14 years of age, 27-year-old Mirza Baig, 23-year-old Madison Dubiski, and 21-year-old Axel Acosta Avila.

And, Alisyn and Victor, we know from HPD and from the officials here in the city of Houston and the county of Harris that they continue to say that one of the reasons why it is so important for them to do a thorough investigation is to give all of those families answers as to what happened here, what went so wrong -- Alisyn, Victor.

CAMEROTA: Rosa Flores, thank you very much for all of that.

Paul Wertheimer is the founder of Crowd Management Strategies, which investigated the deadly 1979 Who concert in Cincinnati where 11 people were killed.

Paul, I'm so glad that you're with us.

PAUL WERTHEIMER, FOUNDER, CROWD MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES: My pleasure.

CAMEROTA: Because I had always thought that, after that Who concert, after 11 kids were killed, I thought that they changed the laws and that they banned so-called festival seating, where you don't get an assigned seat and it's just sort of a mad dash to get as close as you can to the stage.

But I guess I'm wrong.

WERTHEIMER: Yes.

A few Cincinnati band festival seating and a few other cities, but festival seating never stopped. They just changed the name to general admission. It never stopped occurring. And then, of course, it really picked up with -- in the 19 -- late 1980s and the '90s during the grunge period, and it's just gone on.

It's so lucrative, so beneficial to organizers and artists and venues that they could they couldn't help themselves, even though there are standards that now exist to make festival seating reasonably safe. They certainly were ignored in this space, as they are often in any other situations.

And I just want mention -- maybe this is out of hand -- a couple things I heard.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

WERTHEIMER: If the police chief spoke to the artist about the dangers of the crowd and he's concerned, did he (AUDIO GAP) the promoter?

Did he go to the promoter and say, we need something (AUDIO GAP) or did he just go to artist, which is a good thing to do, don't get me wrong, to set the artists straight, but knowing that the (AUDIO GAP) who else did he go to? Who did he go (AUDIO GAP) were in charge of the crowd?

BLACKWELL: Paul, unfortunately, we're having some audio issues, where it's difficult to understand what you're saying.

Is there a way we can fix this and then come back to Paul?

All right, so this is what we will try to do. We will try to fix this audio issue because this is crucial information you're giving us to understand what happened.

We will take a break, and then we will come back with Paul Wertheimer.

CAMEROTA: OK, so one year from the midterm elections, and a new CNN poll, which we will get to in a moment, will tell you about how the majority of Americans say the president is focusing on the wrong issues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:14:10]

CAMEROTA: Ten months into his presidency and a brand-new CNN poll reveals new lows for President Biden's polling numbers.

BLACKWELL: So the majority of Americans disapprove of his job performance. Many believe he's focusing on the wrong issues.

And this poll was conducted before Congress passed his bipartisan infrastructure bill.

Let's bring in David Chalian, CNN's political director.

David, hello to you. First, talk to us about the numbers and what they tell us.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, Victor, there does seem to be a disconnect between how the American people are perceiving their priorities to be and where the Biden administration is keeping the focus at the moment.

Take a look here; 58 percent of Americans in this brand-new CNN poll conducted by SSRS say that Biden has the right priorities. Only 42 percent say he does; 58 percent, nearly six in 10, says he does not.

[15:15:00]

And I want to look at this by party and over time; 75 percent of Democrats say as the right priorities, but that's down 15 percentage points from April among Democrats, his base. Look here in the middle with independents. He's down 16 percentage points from 52 percent in April who said he had the right priorities to only 36 percent of independents now. Obviously, Republicans never thought that he had the right priorities here, but he's losing the middle and he's losing a little bit of his base on this, too.

CAMEROTA: So, David, what do Americans think are the biggest issues that he should be focused on right now?

CHALIAN: I think this is actually a really important question in this poll, Alisyn. Take a look here. It is the economy. We saw this in that election in Virginia last week and in New Jersey; 36 percent of Americans say the economy's the most important, compared to 20 percent who say coronavirus. That's now the second issue. You see here immigration, climate change and the rest of the issues.

But this is coronavirus virus receding as the top issue. And look here by party. This is sort of our Mars-Venus moment in this country; 51 percent of Republicans say the economy is the top issue. For Democrats, coronavirus is still the top issue; 34 percent say so; 20 percent save the economy.

Look at this number here. Only 4 percent of Republicans think that coronavirus is the top issue. And so if you're a coronavirus voter or an economy voter, it differs how you perceive things. Among those who think economy is the number one issue, 72 percent say Biden has the wrong priorities.

But if you believe coronavirus is the major issue, 79 percent, eight out of 10 coronavirus voters, think Joe Biden does have the right priorities. This makes a very tricky needle that the president needs to thread.

BLACKWELL: Yes, certainly does.

So these are the numbers on the issues. What have you learned about the view of his overall rating, his job performance?

CHALIAN: Yes, as you noted at the top, Victor, he's upside down. We're a year away from the critical midterm elections, one year from today. And a majority, 52 percent, disapprove of the way Joe Biden's handling his job; 48 percent approve.

Take a look at this in terms of intensity. I think this is really key; 36 percent disapprove strongly, compared to only 15 percent who approve strongly. So, intensity is on the side of those who disapprove of Joe Biden's performance. And intensity is sort of a coin of the realm in politics.

And then, of course, always important to put it in context. Where does Joe Biden stand up against his modern-day predecessors? At this point in his presidency, he's at the 48 percent approval now. That's where Bill Clinton was, near where Reagan was. Obama was a little bit higher. Only Donald Trump was lower than Joe Biden at 36 percent at this point in his presidency, guys.

CAMEROTA: Very interesting context.

David Chalian, thanks for laying all that out.

CHALIAN: Sure.

CAMEROTA: Kirsten Powers is a CNN political commentator and "USA Today" columnist. She is also the author of the new book "Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered, and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You Nuts." We can't wait to talk about that.

Kirsten, great to see you.

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hey, Alisyn. It's good to see you.

CAMEROTA: OK, one of the things that I was struck by, by what David Johnson just laid out, the lowest issue that people are concerned about, according to our poll -- and, by the way, Democrats are more concerned about this than Republicans -- is education. Only 2 percent of Republicans say that's their biggest issue.

That's basically what so many -- Glenn Youngkin and other Republicans made so much hay out of the curriculum at schools and what's going on at school board meetings. I'm surprised to see it's so low there.

POWERS: That is surprising. But I do wonder, if for some people, they don't put coronavirus and education together, right? Some people who are frustrated about that may think of them as the same thing.

But I'd certainly say it's true that, in Virginia, that was an issue and that there is a lot of frustration. Typically, we are seeing a lot of frustration with people about school closings and those kinds of things. But that doesn't mean it's the top issue.

And so I think what is concerning, certainly for the Biden administration, is that the economy is a such a concern to so many Americans, when the economy is doing really well.

CAMEROTA: Maybe they mean inflation.

(CROSSTALK)

POWERS: But, overall, most of the markers of an economy doing well are up. The stock market's doing well. Jobs are up. Those are the things that we're feeling sort of day to day.

And I don't think that, at this point, we're experiencing such out-of- control inflation that people would be so disapproving of the economy. I think that Joe Biden needs to talk about this nonstop and he needs to talk about it the way a Ronald Reagan would have talked about it or even a Donald Trump would have talked about it, of how great the economy is doing, because I don't think that message is getting through.

[15:20:03]

And I think that -- and the fact that the Rescue Plan played a key role in that.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

Kirsten, of course, this poll was conducted before the passage of the infrastructure bill. And we heard from Virginia Senator, former Governor Mark Warner that, had that passed before the elections on Tuesday, that would have helped in Virginia. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): I think, if we could have been talking about that win and showing the kind of job creation that actually has been taking place, things might have been different.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Different, in that you think Terry McAuliffe could have pulled off a win?

WARNER: Absolutely. Absolutely.

I mean, this was a -- the voters of Virginia and the voters of America gave us the presidency, the Senate and the House. They expected us to produce.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Now, we don't know if that would have helped the president's poll numbers. But do you think passage would have helped or put Terry McAuliffe across the line?

POWERS: It wouldn't have hurt, right, I mean, for that to have happened. I'm not sure that it would have been enough to put him over the line.

The party out of power typically isn't going to be successful in these races. And so I think that -- I think that he was dealing with a lot of local cultural issues that the Republicans were very good at ginning up, and that I think that that played a much bigger role than anything that's going on in Washington.

So, of course, it wouldn't have hurt him for that to happen. And it potentially could have helped him. But it doesn't seem to be what the average Virginia voter was focusing on here.

CAMEROTA: Kirsten, let's talk about your book, "Saving Grace," how to stay centered and learn to coexist with people who drive you nuts.

What is your secret for doing this? As Thanksgiving approaches and people are going to be around perhaps relatives, neighbors, whatever who they feel so diametrically opposed to, and there's so much vitriol, what's the secret?

POWERS: Well for me, the secret has been trying to develop grace for other people. And that's really giving people space to not be you, is one way to think about it, and to see people as more than just the thing that they're saying or doing that is upsetting to you.

And there are a lot of tools in the book. Obviously, there aren't -- there's not enough time to get into all of them. But instead of demonizing people or -- yelling at people or telling them how terrible they are, which surprise, surprise, doesn't actually change anybody's mind, maybe use boundaries instead.

Maybe set up some boundaries around what's going to be discussed at dinner. Maybe you're going to say, hey, why don't we not try to solve the world's problems that Thanksgiving dinner this year? Or I'd like to talk about these things with you, but can we set up some boundaries around them? We won't speak to each other with contempt. We will use curiosity. We will ask questions.

So there are things that we can do, I think, that sort of create a little space and look at the other person and say, you're more than who you voted for. You're more than the thing that you're saying that's upsetting to me. And I'm going to see you as a whole person. And I'm going to engage with you that way.

And I'm not going to take on all of your beliefs.

BLACKWELL: Yes, I think that's an important thing to remember. Give people the space not to be you.

CAMEROTA: I do too.

BLACKWELL: That's the first time I have heard that.

POWERS: It's hard.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Yes, it is hard sometimes.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: Yes, it's really good.

But I do like the idea of boundaries at the holidays or whatever, any party. I think that that's really great.

Again, the book is "Saving Grace" by Kirsten Powers.

Congratulations. It sounds great, Kirsten, and we will be reading it immediately.

BLACKWELL: Yes, thank you, Kirsten.

POWERS: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: All right back now to the deadly music festival in Houston.

It turns out crowd control has been an issue at Travis Scott's concerts in the past. In his 2019 Netflix documentary, a member of Scott's team warned security guards about the anticipated rowdy fans ahead of one of his shows.

That person in the documentary said -- quote -- "You will see a lot of crowd-surfers in general, but also a lot of kids who are just trying to get to safety because they can't breathe, it's so compact."

CAMEROTA: Paul Wertheimer is back with us. He's the founder of Crowd Management Strategies, which investigated that deadly 1979 Who concert in Cincinnati where 11 people were killed.

Paul, I think we have fixed your audio problems, and I hope so because I really want to hear your...

WERTHEIMER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I want to hear your suggestions.

As I have been telling Victor, this really hits home with me because one before is almost exactly before that Who concert, I went to my first concert ever. It was an Aerosmith concert at the Spectrum in Philadelphia and there was a crowd surge.

And we were compressed against the glass doors of the Spectrum for about an hour. People passed out around me. And that night, I thought I was going to be killed. And I totally identify with what happened here at this Travis Scott thing.

And because I lived through it, I know that I could see a security guard, but my entire body was being compressed, and I couldn't breathe. And I couldn't get to the security guard.

[15:25:05]

Once this happens, the crowd surge of 50,000 people, what are security guards supposed to do? How are you supposed to start saving people who are passing out in the crowd?

WERTHEIMER: Well, what you're supposed to do is not let it get to that point. That's what you're supposed to do, not heroic efforts at the last minute to save lives.

It's in the planning -- excuse me -- in the planning and the risk assessment where you design the event so this doesn't occur, or you're prepared for it if it is.

As I was saying before, it was a very positive move for the police chief to speak to the artist about trying to keep the crowd calm. But my question is, did the police chief, knowing that the crowd was tumultuous and looking dangerous, did he then go to the promoter and say, we need special monitors, extra monitoring, and you may want to move more of your 750 security guards closer to the crowd, including this emergency medical, in case something happened?

Or did he just focus on the artist? And your story back from the pre- Who is the story that continues to this day. The industry knows this, the dangers of crowd surge, crowd crush. But, of course, as you pointed out earlier, it doesn't really even appear in the -- what is the equivalent of the Astroworld's crowd management plan.

There's no reference to crowd surge, crowd crush, crowd collapse, panic. There's no reference to the front of the stage and festival seating crowd. And then, therefore, there's no specific emergency planning for a mass casualty crowd crush event.

Look, mass casualties is a generic term. It could include fires, structural collapse, drug overdoses. You need a specific plan to deal with crowd-crushing situation. And there's nothing in the report, no reference to that. It's mostly a boilerplate report.

But what there is reference to is some type of risk assessment plan that was developed. We need to see that risk assessment plan, because there it should have -- the history of Travis Scott, the history and profile of the audiences he attracts, and how those dangers that are produced by those two groups will be mitigated or prevented through proper crowd management.

The police chief going around talking about how terrible a crowd, how terrible Travis Scott is today shouldn't be news to them. If they didn't know it when they were planning the event, then there was a reckless disregard to safety of the crowd.

BLACKWELL: Paul, in this report -- and we heard this from Rosa Flores, this 56-page plan, there's this moment where there's a casualty, mass casualty event that's declared, the performance goes on for 30 minutes more.

And Rosa reports that only the festival director and the executive director can stop the show. I'm surprised that there's not a safety official who can step up or someone in close proximity to the stage who knows what's going on who can come up and say, this is it. We have now got people who are potentially losing their lives in this crowd.

WERTHEIMER: You're absolutely right to recognize that.

The fact is, the people, agencies responsible for the safety and welfare of Houstonians are fire and police and building. Any of those agencies had the power to stop that show. They don't need -- they don't need approval of some promoters, a coordinator, or wait through all that time or the artist.

They can pull the plug on that show. And they can do it with the cooperation of the artist, or he and the promoter and everyone else can be arrested. The fact that the responsibility is shifted to private parties is an error and a false flag of the powers that city officials have.

BLACKWELL: Well, I'm so glad we got this audio issue figured out, because you have certainly given us an education on what should happen.

Again, the investigation continues into potentially what went wrong here. And I'm glad you were with us to kind of walk us through the investigation up to this point.

(CROSSTALK)

WERTHEIMER: Can you give me one minute to say something else?

CAMEROTA: Very quickly.

[15:30:00]