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Ahmaud Arbery Trial Continues; Jurors Shown Autopsy Photos in Kyle Rittenhouse Trial; Judge Denies Trump's Push to Keeps Documents From Congress; Astroworld Investigation. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired November 09, 2021 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:01]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Appreciate your time today on INSIDE POLITICS. Hope to see you back here this time tomorrow.

Don't go anywhere. Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now. Have a great day.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and thanks for being here. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

It was a death trap, those words as new heartbreaking details from inside this deadly Astroworld crowd surge are still coming to light. A 9-year-old right now is fighting for his life. We're learning his dad passed out with the boy on his shoulders. Also, a man dying while he was trying to save his fiancee, his family is now demanding justice and sharing their pain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASIL BAIG, BROTHER OF VICTIM: His smile. He used to light up the room, man, his jokes, his -- everything that he used to do, his little things. Anything that he did, he put everyone before himself. And that's what he did until he died, until his last breath.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Lawsuits are now piling up. What we're learning straight ahead.

Plus, Trump denied, a judge blocking his latest request to keep documents safe and secret, this as the January 6 Committee issues a flurry of new subpoenas for some of Trump's closest allies. But will any of them ever testify about that deadly day? Our legal expert weighs in.

And damning testimony out of Georgia, as three white men face trial for the fatal shooting of Ahmaud Arbery. What a responding officer just said about one defendant's comments at the crime scene.

Let's begin with the concert tragedy in Houston. And CNN's Rosa Flores joins us from there. Rosa, the more we learn, the more heartbreaking this really becomes to

high school students among the eight victims killed. And you're learning more about this young boy who is right now fighting for his life.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Ana.

It's just heartbreaking; 9-year-old E.B. -- he goes by E.B. -- this little boy was supposed to come to this concert with his dad just for a dad-and-son fun day. And he was actually on his dad's shoulders during the concert.

Well, his grandfather tells CNN that his dad at one point passed out. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNON BLOUNT, GRANDFATHER OF VICTIM: With holding Ezra up, that left him vulnerable down. So he got really squeezed. And he couldn't breathe. He kept -- he just told me: "Dad, I couldn't breathe."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Ana, I have heard that from so many concert concertgoers, who say that it was very difficult to breathe at this concert.

What happened after is that E.B. fell off of his dad's shoulders onto the crowd. And then he was transported to the hospital. And right now he's fighting for his life.

CABRERA: Oh, that is so sad, Rosa. And now we have lawsuits piling up.

And this comes as we learn the music festival did not have a contingency plan for surging crowds. What more can you tell us about these lawsuits?

FLORES: There's at least 18 lawsuits. Most of them claim negligence, in essence, that these concert organizers organized an event that was not safe for people to attend.

Some of the other allegations are that individuals were trampled on, that it was just not a safe environment. And you're absolutely right. From the operations plan, a 56-page document, we have learned that there was no contingency plan for a crowd surge.

There were key concerns that were outlined in this plan like a mass casualty event, also a weather event, civil unrest, a riot, but nothing for crowd surge. And, Ana, there's another key thing here, especially when you talk about lawsuits and liability.

In this plan, it says that two individuals had the power to stop this concert. It was the executive producer and also the festival director. Again, this is just the beginning for this, as we know that not only eight people have died. There's still three people in the hospital, according to the Houston fire chief, two of them, Ana, in critical condition.

CABRERA: And a criminal investigation also continues.

Thank you, Rosa Flores, for your reporting.

Now to the continued fight over access to documents and testimony by the January 6 Committee. Just after midnight, a judge denied Donald Trump's new late night request to block the National Archives from handing over his White House records to House investigators.

Now, this wasn't a ruling on the main case, though. That's still pending.

CNN senior legal analyst and former federal and state prosecutor Elie Honig is here to help us with this.

What's your take, Elie, on this late last night ruling?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This was a bizarre exchange, Ana.

Here's what happened. Donald Trump's lawyers filed a motion with the judge, saying, Judge, when you rule against us on this case, I want you to just put it on hold for a minute because we're going to appeal.

[13:05:09]

And then the judge responded by saying, hold on, I haven't ruled for or against anyone yet. So your motion is premature.

Now, we should hear from that judge within the next couple days. If and when the judge rules against Donald Trump, which is what I expect, then he can make that motion, but, for now, it was out of time and the judge shot it down pretty quickly.

CABRERA: And she did say she was planning to expeditiously come up with a ruling on the main case. And this latest ruling came hours after the January 6 Committee issued a fresh round of subpoenas to six Trump allies.

Walk us through the roles of these specific people that the committee wants to hear from.

HONIG: Yes, Ana, it's a fascinating group of six people, first of all, Michael Flynn, yes, the same Michael Flynn who was convicted of lying to the FBI, later pardoned by Donald Trump.

The committee's interested in him because he was part of meetings with Donald Trump where they discussed really wild approaches, like declaring martial law and seizing election machines.

Then we have John Eastman, of course. This is the attorney who came up with the plan, the memo explaining how, in his view, he was wrong, but in his view, Mike Pence as vice president had the power to reject certain electoral votes, throw the election over to Donald Trump. Bernard Kerik, another former convicted felon pardoned by Trump, he was behind the Willard meetings, those secret war room meetings that happened in the days leading up to January 6.

And then three Trump campaign officials, Bill Stepien, Jason Miller and Angela McCallum. The committee said they're interested in the role that the campaign had in spreading this whole election lie and in dealing with state legislators to try to get them on board with throwing this election as well.

CABRERA: OK, so these subpoenas have now been issued, and they have a few weeks to respond. How likely is it that the January 6 Committee will actually hear from these people?

HONIG: Well, some of them are somewhere between unlikely and completely not going to happen. I think Michael Flynn is very unlikely. I think Eastman is unlikely. I think Kerik is unlikely.

Perhaps the campaign officials, though, they're more seasoned, sort of mainstream political operatives. So there's a chance to hear from those folks. But if and when people do defy the subpoenas, the committee is going to have to decide, do we hold them in contempt? And do we send them over to DOJ for potential criminal prosecution?

CABRERA: What's the update on the status of the previous subpoenas that this committee has issued? Where do those stand?

HONIG: Yes, it's important remember, there's still several pending subpoenas.

Steve Bannon, first of all, he has been held in contempt and sent over to DOJ. We're waiting for Merrick Garland to decide whether there will be a criminal prosecution. Jeffrey Clark defied the committee just last week on Friday. The committee's now got to decide, do we send Jeffrey Clark over for potential prosecution to DOJ?

We have the original three, Meadows, Dan Scavino, and Kash Patel. They have been negotiating with the committee but this has been going on for six weeks now. So the committee has to make a decision on them pretty quickly.

And then the National Archives' subpoena for documents, this is the one we discussed before, Ana, where we're waiting for a ruling from the judge that should come any day now.

CABRERA: So, who has the committee spoken with?

HONIG: Yes, so we know from Representative Cheney that the committee has spoken with over 150 people. We don't know who most of those people are.

We do know we heard public testimony from four of the heroic police officers who defended the Capitol that day. We know that certain former DOJ officials, Jeffrey Rosen, Richard Donoghue, has spoken with the committee. And we know that at least five former Trump White House officials, including Alyssa Farah, have spoken with the committee.

The rest of them, though, sort of remain a mystery to us.

CABRERA: OK, but 150 people-plus now at this point.

HONIG: Yes.

CABRERA: Elie Honig, as always I really appreciate your expertise. You give us so much information packed in there. Appreciate it.

HONIG: Thanks, Ana.

CABRERA: As the January 6 Committee continues to investigate, the former president is digging in, continuing to peddle the big lie and attacking anyone who dares tell the truth, including his former allies.

His latest target, Chris Christie, after the former New Jersey governor urged the Republican Party to no longer talk about the past and the past elections. Trump took aim, saying Christie was absolutely massacred by those comments.

Let's discuss with CNN political commentator Ana Navarro and former GOP Congressman from Illinois and former presidential candidate Joe Walsh.

Great to have both of you here.

Christie isn't the only Republican trying to get the party to move on. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said yesterday that the 2022 midterms -- quote -- "will be about the future, not about the past" -- end quote.

So, Joe, who wins this fight?

FMR. REP. JOE WALSH (R-IL): Trump does, Ana.

It's Trump's party. Look, he's the leader of the Republican Party. He believes and will continue to spread the big lie. And the truth is, the Republican Party is a cult. And the vast majority of the party, of the voters believe the big lie.

As long as that's the case, unless you are a Republican and you wholeheartedly embrace the big lie. You don't have much of a future.

CABRERA: Ana, let's take a closer look at today's Republican Party, specifically those in positions of power.

[13:10:03]

GOP Congressman Paul Gosar, he just tweeted a doctored anime video of him killing fellow Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Now, Twitter said the video did violate its rules on hateful conduct, but didn't remove the tweet. It just put a label on it.

I just can't get over this, because my kids, Ana, would be expelled from school for something like this, I will get fired for my job if I did something like this. This is a member of Congress and, so far, no consequences. ANA NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You're absolutely right.

If a school-aged child did this, the police would be called in. They would be sent to a school psychologist. If you did this against a colleague -- and, listen, I know you and I have sat next to some pretty deplorable people, OK? And if we ever posted something like that, even in jest, we'd be dragged to H.R. and we would be fired for cause.

And I remember when Kathy Griffin posted something, an attack on Trump, and she got visited by the Secret Service. And she got let go from many jobs, and she suffered huge consequences.

And so it's very disappointing to hear and to see today's Republican Party be so silent on this. It's unseemly. It's unstatesmanlike. And I think there needs to be consequences. It's ridiculous that they attack Big Bird more vigorously than they condemn this kind of violent tweet by Paul Gosar.

It is ridiculous that Josh Hawley is out there calling himself a caped crusader to defend masculinity. Well, I know what masculinity looks like, and it does not look like killing one of your female colleagues. And so if he wants to be the defender of masculinity, as he says he does, he should speak up and condemn this heinous act by Paul Gosar.

CABRERA: I do know Adam Kinzinger has condemned it, but you're right, crickets on this from GOP leadership.

But, Joe, we are learning some conservative Republican lawmakers are discussing whether to strip committee assignments from the 13 Republicans who voted for the bipartisan infrastructure bill. Remember, 19 Republican senators also voted for that bill.

So let me get this right. They're discussing punishing people who want to get things done to help their constituents, but most won't even condemn a member tweeting out a fantasy killing video?

WALSH: Yes, Ana, and I think it's so damn important to reiterate what you just said.

I know Paul Gosar. I think he's nuts. He doesn't belong in Congress anymore. A member of Congress posted a video of him killing another member of Congress. I mean, think about that. Think about what he did.

But Ana Navarro nailed it. The cowardly silence from every -- almost every single member of my former political party, Ana, they're afraid to speak up because they're afraid of their voters, period.

CABRERA: And yet they are letting their voters get by with the idea that it's OK to have sort of a violent culture, at least violent rhetoric. And it appears that that sort of culture is growing.

One of the House Republicans who voted for this infrastructure bill gave us a taste of the calls that he's been getting threatening violence, saying, "I hope you die," for example. And he references in this interview Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene giving the office phone numbers of these Republicans who voted for that bill. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. FRED UPTON (R-MI): I have a colleague, as you know, that put out the phone numbers of the 13 members voted that way. Be glad to defend that vote. We have been working really since last spring on a bipartisan bill.

We have seen civility really downslide here. I'm concerned about my staff. They're taking these calls. These are very disturbing adult language, to say the least, that truly is frightening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: And I imagine it took a lot of courage for him to even do this interview, to speak out, to give voice to what's happening here. Where do you think this is headed?

NAVARRO: I don't know where it's headed.

But I do know that I can't understand for the life of me how many of these congresspeople who were in the Capitol on January 6 and saw what violence leads to, saw the attacks on police, the attacks on themselves, heard the calls to hang Mike Pence, I don't know how they can remain silent when you are -- when there is somebody promoting violence against a colleague, after what this country just lived through this year.

This wasn't ancient history. This didn't happen last century. This happened in January of this year. We saw the breaching of the U.S. Capitol and violent attacks. And so how they can, in the face of that, remain complicitly, cowardly silent is really inexplicable, inexplicable.

[13:15:08]

It's putting their own lives at risk.

CABRERA: Joe, Ana mentioned this just a moment ago. I have got to get your reaction to Congressman Josh Hawley and what he apparently -- Senator Josh Hawley and what he apparently perceives as a threat to masculinity. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): As conservatives, we have got to call men back to responsibility. We have got to say that spending your time not working -- and we have more and more men who are not working -- spending your time on video games, spending your time watching porn online while doing nothing is not good for you, your family or this country.

It's a left-wing attack on manhood, says to men, you're part of the problem. It says that your masculinity is inherently problematic.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CABRERA: He sounds pretty amped up about this. Is this a priority for voters, Joe?

WALSH: God, no, Ana.

And you know exactly what he's doing. This is what Republicans do now. They're trying to scare. I mean, they're trying to scare the hell out of their voters. And you asked a moment ago where all of this is leading. It's going to lead to more violence. It is going to lead to more people getting hurt.

Donald Trump spent four years inciting violence. Sadly, other Republicans have learned from Trump and they think this is the thing to do. This is a scary time.

CABRERA: And it's not normal. It's why we have to keep calling it out.

Joe Walsh, Ana Navarro, thank you so much for being here and offering your perspective.

WALSH: Thanks.

NAVARRO: Thank you.

CABRERA: It is a key element of their defense, but the first officer who arrived at the scene of Ahmaud Arbery's killing just testified that one of the accused never even mentioned that he was trying to make a citizen's arrest. Details just ahead.

Plus: Pain at the pump is getting worse, as millions of Americans prepared to hit the road for Thanksgiving. What, if anything, can the president do about it?

And Houston, we have a toilet problem. Four NASA astronauts safely splash down in the Gulf of Mexico after a six-month stay on the International Space Station -- why they had to make that journey home in diapers.

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[13:21:31]

CABRERA: Compelling testimony today in the trial of the three men accused of killing Ahmad Arbery.

A police officer who interviewed defendant Gregory McMichael says McMichael never used the word arrest or detain in reference to Arbery. Remember, the defendants have claimed they were trying to make a citizen's arrest of a burglary suspect when Arbery was killed.

CNN national correspondent Ryan Young is covering this trial.

Ryan, update us on the testimony and today's other developments.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Ana, there's really some nuanced parts here when it comes to this court case.

First, let's think about yesterday and how graphic it was in terms of all the images that we saw. Today's really getting into just the sort of nuts and bolts about what happened when officers arrived. And officer Jeff Brandeberry, he was on scene and he was the one who was actually doing that conversation with Greg McMichael.

Look, this is an officer who had never testified in court. He seemed pretty comfortable talking about the events that led up. And you can really see the fact that, at some point, as he was asking questions, going back and forth, there was really no discussion about that point right there, trying to make a citizen's arrest.

And we weren't even able to see his body camera video. One of the reasons why is because that body camera video caught Gregory Michael on it. And so since they really couldn't ask him what he was thinking, because he might actually take the stand, they weren't able to play that video.

So they really went part by part in the transcripts. In fact, take a listen to one of these exchanges, Ana.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA DUNIKOSKI, COBB COUNTY, GEORGIA, ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: While speaking with you, did Greg McMichael ever used the word burglary?

JEFF BRANDEBERRY, GLYNN COUNTY POLICE OFFICER: No, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: Do he ever use the word trespass?

BRANDEBERRY: No, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: Did he ever tell you while you're talking to him that he was attempting to make a citizen's arrest?

BRANDEBERRY: No, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: Do he ever even use the word arrest?

BRANDEBERRY: No, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: Did he ever even use the word detain?

BRANDEBERRY: No, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: Did he ever tell you that, oh, we were going to detain this guy and wait for the police to come and investigate?

BRANDEBERRY: No, ma'am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: Yes, Ana, think about that. What they're really drilling down is that part right there about those questions about what he was actually trying to do.

Let's not forget that, yesterday, there was a conversation about how many times Ahmaud Arbery was cut off, and it was admitted he was cut off maybe five times as he was running. And they actually said he was running very fast. They didn't know if anything had been done, if he committed any crime.

So you think about how they're trying to piece this together and you can really see what the prosecution is trying to do -- Ana.

CABRERA: Ryan Young, thank you.

And in Wisconsin, prosecutors are getting ready to rest their case and the Kyle Rittenhouse trial. Jurors saw graphic autopsy photos during testimony this morning. The defendant looked away as the pictures were shown of the people he killed. The teenager fatally shot two people and wounded another during protests in Kenosha, Wisconsin, last summer.

And the defense says Rittenhouse acted in self-defense. Yesterday, the armed protester/slash medic who was wounded in the shooting admitted having a gun in his hand when Rittenhouse shot him, but he says he'd never intentionally pointed the gun at Rittenhouse, and he believed his own life was in imminent danger.

Let's get some insight on this trial. CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson joins us now.

We're told the prosecution could rest its case as soon as today, Joey. It seems like this is moving very quickly, no?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it really is, Ana. Good to be with you.

And, remember, critical in a case like this, and the prosecution's presented 20-plus witnesses so far, really trying to bring the jury there, which is what all the cases are about. Bring the jury to that event.

But I think the critical issue in a self-defense case is really three pillars. Number one centers around the immediacy of the threat. In the event you're going to use deadly force, as Rittenhouse did, was he under fear of immediate death or serious bodily injury? That's number one.

[13:25:11]

And that, to this point, seems to be the picture that the fence is painting that he was. The second pillar is really the proportionality of your conduct. Did you act proportionate to the threat that was posed upon you?

Well, as we heard testimony yesterday with respect to someone pointing a gun at you, right, a gun, you have a gun, the proportionality is there. And then the last component the jury has to assess is the reasonability of your conduct. And so the defense is really trying to make a lot of hay by pointing out the mayhem that was going on, the chaotic nature that was going on, the fact that their client was in fear.

But, indeed, the case has been moving rapidly with those 20-plus witnesses. It will soon be time for the defense. And, of course, the critical question will be, will Rittenhouse himself take the stand?

CABRERA: So while we wait to see what more develops there, let's pivot to the trial in the killing of Ahmaud Arbery.

Jurors heard from another officer today. This is the prosecution's fifth witness, all of whom had interactions with the defendants after Arbery's killing. And these witnesses seemed to be consistent that the defendants never mentioned that they were trying to make a citizen's arrest before Arbery was shot.

And yet, Joey, that's the defense.

JACKSON: Yes, Ana, that's very significant. And here's why.

If you're going to avail yourself to that citizen's arrest law, it would seem to me that upon interacting with the authorities initially, you might have said that. You might have said, hey, listen, you know what we saw him burglarizing, we had knowledge that he was burglarizing something, we were chasing him as a result of that.

You would say we were attempting to make an arrest, we were attempting to detain for purposes of, right, this particular law. You don't do that. And what the prosecution is doing very effectively, Ana, is taking that off the table.

Remember that a centerpiece of their defense, that is, the three defendants, as they're charged, is we were relying upon this law which states that if a crime is committed in our presence or we have immediate knowledge of it, we have the right to otherwise effect a citizen's arrest.

If it's a felony, we can then detain them. If you don't get the benefit of even using that law, you know what? The jury can't consider it because you haven't put forward enough information that would implicate it. And that leaves your defense in a lot of doubt.

And so, therefore, I think the prosecution is doing a very effective job at neutralizing that. Let's see what the defense can do to bring it back on the table to show that their clients reasonably relied upon the use of that law. To date, they're not doing that.

CABRERA: Joey Jackson, as always thanks so much for guiding us through these proceedings. Appreciate it.

JACKSON: Thank you.

CABRERA: How much are you feeling it? Gas prices are the highest they have been in seven years. Lawmakers are looking to the White House now for relief. But can anything be done?

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