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Court Resumes In Kyle Rittenhouse Trial. Aired 2:30-3p ET
Aired November 10, 2021 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:30:00]
THOMAS BINGER, KENOSHA COUNTY ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: And nobody made him do it. Nobody forced him to go to the bar. Nobody forced him to wear the shirt. Nobody forced him to pose for selfies. It's his own decision making.
BRUCE SCHROEDER, KENOSHA COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE: You know, when I made reference to exquisitely poor judgment, I was talking about at the incident when he was wearing the shirt.
Because, look, everybody in all of humanity at one time or another displays bad judgment. Sometimes exquisitely bad judgment. And we don't end people's trials. I'm really embarrassed.
So I wasn't referring on the day in question. That's a legitimate inquiry. And you're being allowed to present a lot of evidence on that subject.
And the jury is going to be instructed and some of the element of some of the crimes that are charged here is going to deal with the caliber of his judgment.
But you're talking about an incident that occurred four months later. So I'm not seeing it. I don't want to waste any more time with it.
I -- I've ruled before it's not admissible and I have heard nothing to change my mind about.
BINGER: It was sought earlier for a purpose. It was sought earlier to be admitted earlier for a different purpose than it is today.
This court has ruled it can't be admitted for the prior purpose. But I've seen you introduce it for a different purpose today.
SCHROEDER: And that question is denied.
BINGER: Thank you.
SCHROEDER: OK.
Are we ready to go?
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: As they bring in the jurors, jury, we can talk a moment, I think.
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Yes.
CAMEROTA: What did you just hear there, Joey?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I heard a number of things. A heard a prosecutor who made motions in lemonade.
What does that mean? It means what are we going to do during the course of trial? What's going to be admissible, what's not?
Prosecutor wants to ask him and con confront him about various things the defendant did.
Apparently, he made reference to two specific incidents who, in the prosecutor's view, the defendant used bad judgment. The judge apparently excluded those in a prior motion.
What the prosecutor is saying is that the defendant has opened the door to the testimony.
CAMEROTA: The judge shut that down.
JACKSON: Exactly. The judge shot that down.
Before that, we heard the defense ask for a mistrial with prejudice, meaning, in the event the judge declared a mistrial, this is over, we're done.
And that would be relying on the bad faith of the prosecutor in his cross-examination in which he ran afoul of the judge's rules. And if that were to happen -- and it may still happen. The judge said I will take that under advisement.
I think that matter will be briefed by the party so they can give the judge case law that they were relying upon to make their legal argument.
BLACKWELL: All right, I think the prosecutor has resumed his cross- examination of Kyle Rittenhouse. Let's listen.
No yet? No audio yet?
All right.
Jeffrey, let me come to you.
The motion for a mistrial with prejudice went specifically to the line of questioning, specifically the right to remain silent, the right to not comment on the trial over the time of the last year.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Right. Most of the time when there's a mistrial, it just means everybody starts over. Then there's a new trial.
There are certain circumstances when the prosecution, according to the judge, believes that it's losing and wants to start over and they somehow just intentionally blow up the case. In those circumstances, the judge can say, we're stopping and you
can't come back again.
BLACKWELL: Let's go back into the courtroom.
BINGER: Good afternoon, Mr. Rittenhouse.
RITTENHOUSE: Good afternoon.
BINGER: You testified earlier that there were times that evening when Mr. Rosenbaum had threatened you. Is that right?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And you described him as wearing a red shirt with a blue bandanna. Is that correct?
RITTENHOUSE: At certain times.
BINGER: Yes. When he threatened you, that's what he was wearing?
RITTENHOUSE: I believe the first time he threatened me, he was wearing a red shirt with a blue bandanna. The second time, he had it wrapped around his face.
BINGER: Had what wrapped around his face?
RITTENHOUSE: His T-shirt.
BINGER: So he wasn't wearing a shirt the second time around?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: And you indicated at one point, you thought he had a chain in his hand?
[14:35:01]
RITTENHOUSE: I believe so.
BINGER: When he made the threat to you with the red shirt on, blue bandanna, did he have a chain in his hand?
RITTENHOUSE: I think one of the times he did.
BINGER: OK. So which of the times was it?
RITTENHOUSE: I can't recall off the top of my head. I think it was the time when he was threatening to cut people's hearts out.
BINGER: I don't need to know the threat. Just which time it was. Was it the first time or the second time?
RITTENHOUSE: Second time. The second time.
BINGER: What was he wearing the second time? RITTENHOUSE: He was masked -- well, the shirt wrapped around his face.
BINGER: And he didn't have -- he didn't have a shirt on his torso?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: And you could see when he didn't have a shirt on his torso, that he didn't have any gun tucked in his waistband, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: I wasn't paying attention to that. I was behind Joanne. I was somewhere over there.
BINGER: So how far away were you from Mr. Rosenbaum when he made the second threat?
RITTENHOUSE: I -- 15, 10, 15 feet. I'm not really certain.
BINGER: But you were close enough to hear the words out of his mouth?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And you took that as a threat to you, personally?
RITTENHOUSE: I took the first one, where he said if I catch you alone, I'm going to kill you, I took that as a threat to me personally. The second time, I took that as a threat to the group.
BINGER: Can we have that photo, exhibit 138, up on the screen, please?
Do you see Mr. Rosenbaum in this picture?
RITTENHOUSE: I do.
BINGER: And he's in the middle of the picture wearing the red shirt with the blue bandanna carrying a plastic bag, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Is that the way he looked when he made the first threat to you?
RITTENHOUSE: When he said, "If I catch you alone," yes.
BINGER: And he was carrying that plastic bag with him when he made that threat, too, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: How close was he when he made the first threat to you?
RITTENHOUSE: Close. I couldn't give you an exact estimate, but he was close. Less than five feet.
BINGER: So closer than madam court reporter is to you now?
RITTENHOUSE: I'd say about the same if not a little bit closer. BINGER: And you were next to Mr. Balch when that was said?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: Was anyone else there besides you, Mr. Balch and Mr. Rosenbaum?
RITTENHOUSE: I believe there were other demonstrators around.
BINGER: And you've seen in this trial that there's been a lot of video footage of that night, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And you've seen in this trial that there's a lot of video footage of you that night, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: You'd agree with me there's no video of either one of these athlete threats, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: I don't know if somebody filmed it that I'm aware of right now.
BINGER: You're not aware of any, are you?
RITTENHOUSE: I'm not.
BINGER: So Mr. Rosenbaum looked like that at the time of the first threat, but then looked different at the time of the second threat? Is that right?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And did you say he was carrying the chain when he made the first or the second one?
RITTENHOUSE: The second.
BINGER: And he was still carrying that plastic bag the second time?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: That plastic bag has a clear side to it that allows you to see inside of it, right?
RITTENHOUSE: Sort of. I didn't really look into the bag.
BINGER: So you didn't know what was in the bag at all?
RITTENHOUSE: I didn't.
BINGER: Did he swing the chain at you when he made the second threat?
RITTENHOUSE: He did not. BINGER: Did he physically touch you when he made the second threat?
RITTENHOUSE: No, he didn't.
BINGER: In fact, that entire evening, he never once touched your body, did he?
RITTENHOUSE: He grabbed my gun when he attacked me.
BINGER: That's why I asked the question the way I did. He never touched your body that night, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: He didn't touch me physically.
BINGER: OK. And neither the first or second time did he run at you or charge at you or anything like that, did he?
RITTENHOUSE: He didn't chase me.
BINGER: He didn't even do anything physically to you, did he?
RITTENHOUSE: No.
BINGER: He just said some words?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And that chain that he had in his hand, he never did anything to physically threaten you with that chain, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Is that correct?
RITTENHOUSE: That's correct.
BINGER: And other than the chain that you described, at no point in the evening did you ever see Joseph Rosenbaum with any other type of weapon, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Not that I saw.
BINGER: Never saw him with a gun?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: Never saw him with a knife.
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: Never saw him with a bat?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: Never saw him with a club?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
[14:40:07]
BINGER: How far apart in time were these two threats that you say Mr. Rosenbaum made to you?
RITTENHOUSE: I can't give you a definite time. I wasn't looking at my clock. But I would say within the same hour.
BINGER: And both of those threats occurred while you were on the 59th Street property?
RITTENHOUSE: The second threat happened at the corner and the first threat happened at Reuther Central High School.
BINGER: Could you use that laser pointer and point out on that map where the first threat happened?
RITTENHOUSE: Right here at the -- in front of the building.
BINGER: So you're pointing at the 59th Street Car Source on the southern side of that property and along the building and Sheridan Road, on the west side of the road? Would that be accurate?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: You said there was a second threat within an hour after that? Correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Where was that threat at?
RITTENHOUSE: It was somewhere over here I remember. On the other side of the property towards Reuther Central.
BINGER: More towards the northeast corner of that same property?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: But you were still on the Car Source property when that second threat was allegedly made, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Did you remember what Mr. Rosenbaum had said to you later on, confronting you on 63rd Street Car Source?
RITTENHOUSE: I took a mental picture of his face when he said those threats. I recognized that he was the one said that said that when he started chasing me.
BINGER: So when you are running away from him at the 63rd Street Car Source, you're thinking to yourself, this is the guy who had made a threat to me earlier. Is that fair to say?
RITTENHOUSE: I was thinking this is the guy that said if he catches me alone, he'll kill me, as I'm running away from him.
BINGER: The reason I ask, Mr. Rittenhouse, is how did you know it was the same guy when he's changed the way he looks?
RITTENHOUSE: His appearance, the shorts, his height.
BINGER: But in both of those instances as you describe, he's got something covering his face, either the blue bandanna in one instance or the red shirt in a different instance, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: He was wearing the red shirt when he chased me, around his head.
BINGER: So you remember that from the second time you say he threatened you.
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And you thought to yourself, this is the same guy?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: So when you eventually were getting to the point where you were going down to the 63rd Street Car Source, right before the shooting, you recognized him as you were following him down the street, didn't you?
RITTENHOUSE: I didn't follow Mr. Rosenbaum down the street.
BINGER: He was in front of you. You know that now, right?
RITTENHOUSE: I know that now.
BINGER: But you didn't see him ahead of you as you were walking down there that night?
RITTENHOUSE: No, it was dark out.
BINGER: But you, at some point as you get close to 63rd Steet Car Source, you start running towards that lot, right?
RITTENHOUSE: Towards the fire in the Duramax.
BINGER: And Mr. Rosenbaum is running ahead of you, isn't he?
RITTENHOUSE: I don't believe so.
BINGER: But you decided you needed to run because of the fire in the Duramax?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Why? What was so urgent?
RITTENHOUSE: It was a fire.
BINGER: There's fires all over the place. So?
RITTENHOUSE: I was getting to the fire to put it out.
BINGER: We'll get back to that in a second.
You indicated that while you were at the 59th Street Car Source, you said you put out a fire at the church next door. Is that right?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Did you hear Joanne's testimony yesterday that when you guys went over there, somebody had put some sort of flammable liquid on the door? Did you hear that testimony?
RITTENHOUSE: I did. I believe that was referring to the Reuther Central High School.
BINGER: OK, so when she described it as happening at the church, you think that she was getting it confused?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: So whatever happened with this flammable liquid on the door, the point is some other group, some other people, put that out before you even got there?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: Why did you feel that you should go around, off the 59th Street Car Source property and put out fires?
[14:45:04]
RITTENHOUSE: To make sure my community didn't get burnt down and help.
BINGER: When you say your community, you mean Kenosha?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Again, you're from Antioch. You're not living in Kenosha at this time when this all happens, right?
RITTENHOUSE: My dad lives in Kenosha.
BINGER: Lots of people live in Kenosha, but you didn't, right?
RITTENHOUSE: My residence was in Antioch.
BINGER: But you felt like you wanted to do things to protect this community. Fair?
RITTENHOUSE: The community that I was part of, yes.
BINGER: And you felt like it was appropriate for you to take matters into your own hands to put out fires, for example.
RITTENHOUSE: To put out firings by using a fire extinguisher, yes.
BINGER: Even though they weren't on the 59th Street property.
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: Were there other things you decided it would appropriate for you to go out there and take care of off the 59th Street property that night?
RITTENHOUSE: I was walking around and asking people if they needed medical help.
BINGER: So you felt you wanted to go out, help people, help protect people, help people feel better, treat people, things like that, even off the 59th Street.
RITTENHOUSE: Provide first aid.
BINGER: Normally, in our regular society, that's something that we call 911 for, right?
RITTENHOUSE: Normally, yes.
SCHROEDER: Where are we headed?
BINGER: I think that the defendant's decisions to go off that property and involve himself in other matters are relevant, Your Honor.
SCHROEDER: Well, I'll let you pursue it, but --
BINGER: And that's exactly how these shootings happen. So.
SCHROEDER: And that's what the trial is about.
BINGER: Which is why --
SCHROEDER: Go ahead. Go ahead. I -- go ahead.
BINGER: Normally, we would, if there's a fire, if there's somebody in a crime, they call 911.
RITTENHOUSE: Normally, yes.
BINGER: You didn't feel like you could do that that night, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: I don't think that -- I saw from the nights prior that the fire department wasn't responding to put out fires.
BINGER: Well, the nights before, there were businesses on fire along 22nd avenue. There was the Car Source. Large scale property fires on the prior nights, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: On the night of August 25th, didn't have any fires like that. We just had small dumpster, smaller things, right? RITTENHOUSE: That I saw, yes.
SCHROEDER: Can't hear you, sir.
BINGER: But regardless of how big the fire is, you felt that night that calling 911 was not an option, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: I didn't feel that if I called 911, anyone would show up.
BINGER: Which is why you decided to take care of it yourself, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: To provide first aid and put out fires.
BINGER: To do the things that normally we would expect the police or the fire department to do, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: To help people, yes.
BINGER: Could you please move that microphone a little closer so we can make sure we can hear everything you say?
Thank you.
SCHROEDER: I'm going to interrupt.
How's the temperature? Becoming uncomfortable the way things are? OK. I won't even ask this.
See you, ice cubes, there's nothing to worry about.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHROEDER: It must be blowing differently here.
Go ahead, Mister --
BINGER: You came to Kenosha that night armed with the A.R.-15 and no other ways to physically defend yourself, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: I had an A.R.-15, yes.
BINGER: Other than that, you had no other weapons or devices that you could use to defend yourself that night, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And there's an interview in which you say you're not carrying anything non-lethal. Do you recall that?
RITTENHOUSE: I do.
BINGER: You indicated, in response to one of your attorney's questions, that there was no friction with the protesters that night. Did I understand you correctly?
[14:50:04] RITTENHOUSE: By friction, you mean --
BINGER: Well, I'm using your words, using your words, sir. I heard you say, in response to your attorney's question, there was no friction with the protesters that night. Did I hear you correctly?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And you're describing what you observed when you were at the 59th Street Car Source, fair enough?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: So based on your several hours at that location, it seemed to you as though the crowd of however you want to describe them -- they have been called rioters, protesters, demonstrators -- and you, things were fine? No tension, no friction, no nothing? Fair to say?
RITTENHOUSE: For the most part, other than Mr. Rosenbaum.
BINGER: He was the only one?
RITTENHOUSE: That threatened, yes.
BINGER: That you saw?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Please play exhibit number 18 at the one hour and 22 second and 14 -- I'm sorry, 22 minute and 14 second mark?
Can you please play it from this point?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a militia are up there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we got a fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, a dumpster fire? It's a dumpster fire.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, he's a year, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. If 2020 is a blunt, it would be just a fucking stint.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could use a doobie right now.
(CROSSTALK)
(SHOUTING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, guys. Good morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How's it going?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey, hey. Reel it in. Don't cause problems when there's none here.
(SHOUTING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that's true. Just stay on your property.
(SHOUTING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Protect your property.
There's way too many of them.
(SHOUTING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to agree with her. You shouldn't be on the street.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're just protecting their property.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought they were yelling. Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the guy's is losing his patience. You should go inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's what we're about to do! Just switch them out. Somebody is a loose canyon. He's got a lot of rage. He says wrong thing, and this whole property -- (INAUDIBLE).
Protect your property. They're respecting that. Just keep it there.
(SHOUTING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's keep moving guys.
(SHOUTING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not the enemies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dude, he's just trying to protect his protect his property.
(CROSSTALK) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have problems right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BINGER: Do you think that looks like friction?
RITTENHOUSE: A little bit.
BINGER: And you witnessed that, didn't you?
RITTENHOUSE: I didn't witness what Mr. Collette did. I didn't see that.
BINGER: You saw the reaction from the crowd, right?
[14:55:00]
RITTENHOUSE: Yes, a little bit. I wasn't really paying much attention to that.
BINGER: Would you agree with me that it seems that the crowd was reacting to members of your group going out in the street and trying to interfere with what was going on off your property?
RITTENHOUSE: I don't think they were happy about it.
BINGER: And in fact, Chris Don Harris, who made this video, specifically told you to stay on your property and not go out on the street and try and put out fires or interfere with any of that stuff, just protect your property. Isn't that what he told you?
RITTENHOUSE: I believe so. I was just going to grab the garbage can, the dumpster that belonged to the Car Source that was on the Car Source property.
BINGER: This is before you headed south towards the 63rd Street Car Source, right?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: This is before you decided to go down there with a fire extinguisher, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: This is before you shot Mr. Rosenbaum, Mr. Huber, Mr. Grosskreutz and that person that was jumping over you, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: So you knew that this was a crowd that would not react very favorably to you going out there and trying to put out fires and interfere with that stuff. You knew that, didn't you?
RITTENHOUSE: I didn't.
BINGER: Even after that incident, you still didn't have any idea that this is a crowd that's not going to take it very well?
RITTENHOUSE: It seems like they were more mad at the part of him screaming what he screamed after, not putting out the fire. That's what it seemed like to me.
BINGER: And he screams to them, "Fuck around and find out," right?
RITTENHOUSE: That's what he screamed to them.
BINGER: After they had just tried to light a dumpster on fire, right?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: So what did you interpret that to mean?
RITTENHOUSE: I don't know. I didn't witness in the time. I just grabbed the dumpster a minute after and tried to pull it onto the property.
BINGER: Because it seems to me he's saying you light stuff on fire, and I'm going to use my gun.
COREY CHIRAFISI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Your Honor, that's a total mischaracterization.
BINGER: I'll withdraw the question.
(CROSSTALK)
CHIRAFISI: -- you can ask your questions and then withdraw.
SCHROEDER: Yes. No, it doesn't matter what you -- what it seems to you.
You can ask your questions, that's fine. Go ahead.
BINGER: It was shortly after that incident that we just watched where you were interviewed by Ritchie McGinnis, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And said you've never heard of him, never dealt with him before this night?
RITTENHOUSE: I have not.
BINGER: So why did you talk to him?
RITTENHOUSE: He seemed like a nice guy.
BINGER: Did he introduce himself as from the media?
RITTENHOUSE: He didn't specifically said, hey, I'm from the media. He was like, hey, do you want to do an interview?
BINGER: And when you heard him ask you to do an interview, you didn't think that meant he's from the media?
RITTENHOUSE: No, that's not what I said. I said he didn't specifically say he was from the media.
BINGER: But you assumed when he says I'm going to interview you that he's from the media, right?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And did he tell you he's from "The Daily Caller?"
RITTENHOUSE: He did not.
BINGER: So you didn't know what media company he worked for?
RITTENHOUSE: Correct.
BINGER: But you agreed to have him interview you on camera, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Can we please play exhibit number 16?
Stop it right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RITCHIE MCGINNIS, REPORTER, "THE DAILY CALLER": What are you doing out here? Obviously, you're armed and you're in front of this business last night, so what's up?
RITTENHOUSE: I got to -- (INAUDIBLE).
MCGINNIS And then what about these guys up on the roof?
RITTENHOUSE: (INAUDIBLE).
MCGINNIS: Got you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BINGER: In that video, you indicate that you have your A.R.-15 to protect yourself, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: And you indicate that you're going to run out there and treat anyone who needs medical help, correct?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
BINGER: Were you going to bring the gun along when you did that?
RITTENHOUSE: Yes.
[14:59:59]
BINGER: To defend yourself while you're treating someone?
RITTENHOUSE: If I needed to defend myself while treating somebody, yes.
