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Ahmaud Arbery Trial Continues; Defense Rests in Kyle Rittenhouse Trial; Trump Defends January 6 Rioters. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired November 12, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:25]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us on NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

We start with new audio recording of former President Trump. He seemingly here is justifying the January 6 rioters who were chanting "Hang Mike Pence" during the insurrection.

Now, this is from a call in March with journalist Jonathan Karl for his new book. Axios released the clip today.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS: Were you worried about him during that siege? Were you worried about his safety?"

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I thought he was well-protected, and I had heard that he was in good shape. No, because I had heard he was in very good shape.

But -- but, no, I think...

KARL: Because you heard those chants -- that was terrible. I mean, it was the...

TRUMP: He could have -- well, the people were very angry.

KARL: They were saying, "Hang Mike Pence."

TRUMP: Because it's common sense, Jon. It's common sense that you're supposed to protect. How can you -- if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, the House committee investigating the insurrection is gearing up for another showdown with a member of Trump's inner circle.

This time, it's former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. He's a no-show for his deposition thus far today. The committee warned that, if he does not cooperate, he would risk contempt charges. Meadows claims his communications with the president are privileged.

He's the second person to defy the committee's subpoenas. Last month, the House held former Trump aide Steve Bannon and contempt of Congress, and we're still waiting to see if Attorney General Merrick Garland will prosecute.

CNN senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid joins us now.

So, Paula, explain why Mark Meadows is defying the subpoena.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, in the past 24 hours, we have seen a dramatic escalation in the negotiations between the House select committee and Meadows.

Now, earlier this week, the Biden White House informed Meadows that it would not assert privilege over any requests from lawmakers related to January 6. So Meadows' legal team, though, has made it clear that he has no intentions of cooperating until a court resolves these larger questions about the privilege power of former President Trump.

Now, in a statement, Meadows' attorney George Terwilliger writes: "The issues concern whether Mr. Meadows can be compelled to testify and whether, even if he could, that he could be forced to answer questions that involve privileged communications. Decades of litigation over executive privilege show how critically important it is for a president to have access to advice and counsel without fear that political opponents in Congress will later be able to pull away the shield of confidentiality."

But the committee notes there are a lot of matters that they have asked Meadows about that wouldn't be covered by privilege, even if he had those protections, like questions about his personal cell phone and e-mail use. Lawmakers urged him to at least show up for the deposition and claim privilege for questions where it could be appropriate.

But, instead, he has defied the subpoena entirely, setting himself up for a possible referral from criminal content.

BLACKWELL: Paula, let's talk about this at least call it temporary victory for the former president in this fight over executive privilege. Tell us about it.

REID: That's right.

Well, former President Trump and the committee are currently litigating on this question of whether the committee should have access to some of former President Trump's White House records related to January 6.

Now, a lower court judge has sided with the committee, saying, look, as a former president, you don't have the right to keep these documents secret if the current president, Biden, of course, wants them released.

Now, Trump has appealed that decision. This case will be heard by the D.C. Court of Appeals. And, as you noted, Trump has scored a minor victory in that the Court of Appeals has agreed to delay the handoff of some of these documents, which were expected to begin today. Now they have delayed that.

Oral arguments on this historic case will be heard on November 30.

BLACKWELL: Paula Reid with the latest for us, thank you very much.

Let's bring it out Harry Litman. He's a former deputy assistant attorney general. And CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger.

Gloria, let's start with this recording of the former president. And I think about former V.P. Mike Pence saying that he and the former president had a good conversation after the insurrection, they have come to an understanding.

What is there to talk about, what is there to understand if he believes that it's common sense that people would want to lynch you to further this lie, so that he could stage a coup?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

And Mike Pence, of course, has always been trying to downplay this, saying that they have had some amicable conversations and that what he says publicly is that we have agreed we don't see eye to eye.

[14:05:05]

What the president told Jon Karl in this interview is: I didn't really care. I thought he was fine. And who can blame these rioters, because -- quote -- "they were very angry"?

And the more you think about it, if you try and get inside Donald Trump's mind, which I will admit is difficult, but if you try and get inside Donald Trump's mind, as he looks at this, the insurrectionists were doing in public exactly the same thing that he was doing in private. He was trying to overturn the election by calling state election officials.

He wasn't marching up the steps of the Capitol and breaking in. But they were doing what he was doing, only in a different way. So it was perfectly fine with him, because, he says, well you can understand it, it was common sense, they were very angry.

CAMEROTA: I don't know, Harry. And I know, Harry, that you're not a licensed therapist. You're our legal expert.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: However, just listening to this, again, the -- of course, it's appalling what he says, but the amount of delusion that you have to step into through the looking glass in order to interview Donald Trump, as so many of us have always known over the years, you just go into this bizarro world, where he just peddles again laws and delusion. And I'm just wondering, legally, do you think that hearing something

like this of President Trump's siding with the insurrectionists, do you think it will make the inner circle of Mike Pence more apt to cooperate with the committee investigating January 6 when they hear this?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Wouldn't it make you more likely?

I mean, our head has been turned around and around, as Gloria says, for years, but here's a new one. Yes, it's fine. Throw him to the wolves. Throw him to the mob. It's just common sense.

Now, we already know -- this whole game, by the way out front, Alisyn, is the people who are not cooperating. But behind the scenes are some 150 who are, who are saying, OK, don't bring out the big ammunition against me. We will talk. We will work it out.

That appears to include many in Pence's circle. And, my lord, what kind of call it a loyalty is there to a guy who literally was ready to have your guy torn limb from limb to avoid the lawful transfer of power?

Yes, I can't imagine that it makes it easier for it, that it doesn't make things a little bit more dicey for Trump within the whole annals of the committee, especially behind the scenes.

BLACKWELL: And, Harry, the members of the committee, I can imagine they're leaning in saying -- if they hear the former president say, I heard he was in good shape, well, what did you hear, Mr. President? When did you hear it? What did you do then?

So this is relevant to the actual work of the January 6 Select Committee.

LITMAN: One hundred percent.

He's playing footsie in a way that really matters under the law if he's ever forced to the -- you can't say half of it and then say, oh, but the rest is privileged. That's exactly right.

And, by the way, we had heard that Pence -- and I'm sure Mike Pence doesn't feel that it was the safest, most serene afternoon for him. There was certainly a point where he's cowering and he's saying, no, you can't drive me away, even though you want to.

I'm sure, just on the facts, the notion of, oh, no, worry, no worry, you were doing fine, does what does not sit well with the former vice president.

BORGER: And can I also add the notion that he said I heard Mike Pence was doing fine, he didn't pick up the phone. He's the president of the United States. The Capitol is under attack.

Mike Pence is having to rush down steps to find a safe place. And where was the president calling his vice president to make sure that he was OK? The people who work for Mike Pence were pretty angry before this recorded interview. I guarantee you this is just confirming what they already knew.

CAMEROTA: Gloria, let's talk about former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows.

So, ticktock. I mean, I think he's already missed his deposition, but maybe he hasn't until 5:00 p.m. today. Today was the deadline to show up.

BORGER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And it seems like he's taking a page from Steve Bannon, and I guess why wouldn't he, since legally, thus far, there haven't been any consequences yet for Steve Bannon defying his subpoena?

BORGER: Right.

And let's just say that Mark Meadows -- and I'm not the attorney here, but Mark Meadows is in a bit of a different place from Steve Bannon, because, of course, he worked in the White House. He's the president's chief of staff. Obviously, there are going to be certain things for which privilege applies. We understand that.

But there are lots of questions and lots of things that the committee wants from him where you can make a very good case that privilege doesn't apply, and that we were told he was engaging with the committee. Now it's clear he's not engaging with a committee.

[14:10:05]

This may be for an audience of one, which would be Donald Trump. But I think you're testing out this theory of a unitary executive, which we know the former attorney general really believed in, which is that the president can determine it.

I mean, I think the question is now, in terms of privilege, which president can determine it? Is it the current one or the former president? And so this is going to come to a head when the Justice Department decides what it's going to do and whether it's going to prosecute Bannon.

BLACKWELL: Harry, on that point of the case, the short reprieve for the former president, if this goes up through appeals, and eventually the Supreme Court decides to take this case, talk about the timeline, how far that stretches out, as we look to there will be a new Congress in January 2023.

Are we going to get close to that, potentially, if the Supreme Court takes up the case?

LITMAN: Yes, that's right. And that's the big wildcard here.

First, the Court of Appeals setting the argument, as Gloria said, for November 30, that is warp speed for them. They're totally aware of the foot-dragging charge from before. The first brief for Trump is due Tuesday. They're going to hear it. It'll probably be all decided by mid-December, and they almost certainly will decide -- will affirm, will decide against Trump.

A week or two for the full Court of Appeals to vote whether to hear it, they probably -- they probably won't. They won't have the votes. And now the Supreme Court. If they take it, even if they eventually hold against Trump, that's going to eat up months of time, and we're at the precipice of the midterms.

So that is the real issue. And she's right, is Judge Chutkan. And there -- as Gloria said, there's only one president of time. Nevertheless, it was a little bit of an unsettled landscape. You could see the court wanting to take it to clarify, but they will know that it would totally foil the needs of the committee.

My best guess -- I'm not a therapist, nor am I a predictor, but what the heck -- is that they won't. But that's the wildcard here.Everything will go against Trump I think and tell about the end of the year and then we will see what the court does.

CAMEROTA: All right, thank you both for wearing many different hats just now.

Gloria Borger, Harry Litman, good to see you.

BLACKWELL: Thanks, guys.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Closing arguments are set for Monday in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial.

There's a lot of negotiations going on about the jury instructions and an intense focus on the judge at the center of this case. So we're live at the courthouse with the latest.

BLACKWELL: And a defense lawyer for the men accused of killing Ahmaud Arbery is now trying to clean up his controversial objection to having black pastors in the courtroom. We will have details next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:18]

BLACKWELL: Closing arguments are scheduled for Monday in the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse. He shot and killed two people and wounded a third during racial justice protests last year.

CAMEROTA: Today, the lawyers and judge are developing instructions for the jury. Jurors have listened to eight days of testimony and more than 31 witnesses, including Rittenhouse himself. He says he acted in self-defense.

CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is covering the trial from Kenosha, Wisconsin.

So, Shimon, give us all the developments today.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so certainly a small victory, but certainly significant victory here this morning for prosecutors, who were asking the judge to add an instruction to the jury about provocation.

Because this is a self-defense case, the defense asking for their own charges, obviously about self-defense, but in that, this small victory for prosecutors, where the judge is going to tell the jury, essentially, that it allows -- let me just put it to this way.

It allows the prosecutors to argue to the jury that one of the victims who was shot and killed, Joseph Rosenbaum, that Rittenhouse provoked him into chasing him and that sort of unleashed this entire incident. So this is a significant victory for the prosecutors, because they're going to be able to sort of argue to jurors that Rittenhouse kind of started all of this.

Obviously, the defense didn't want this instruction to the jury, but the judge agreed that he's going to do it. There's also -- there were some arguments about lesser included charges. That's not entirely clear yet where the judge stands on that. So, hopefully, over the weekend and into Monday, we will get more word on that.

As for Monday, closing arguments. Each side is going to get about two- and-a-half-hours, the judge agreeing. He didn't think it was necessary to give him that much time. But the prosecutors asked for two-and-a- half-hours, so the judge agreed to that. And so, on Monday, that will go on. There will be closing arguments, instructions to the jury.

And then they will begin deliberations on Monday.

BLACKWELL: Shimon Prokupecz in Kenosha, Wisconsin, for us, thank you.

Let's go to Georgia now. A defense attorney in the trial of the man accused of killing Ahmaud Arbery, he's now trying to walk back some controversial comments he made.

So, on Thursday, Kevin Gough objected to civil rights leader Reverend Al Sharpton attending the proceedings to support the victim's family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN GOUGH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We don't want any more black pastors coming in here or other Jesse Jackson -- whoever was in here earlier this week, sitting with the victim's family, trying to influence a jury in this case.

And I'm not saying the state is even aware that Mr. Sharpton was in the courtroom. I certainly wasn't aware of it until last night. But I think the court can understand my concern about bringing people in who really don't have any ties to this case, other than political interests.

[14:20:03]

We want to keep politics out of this case.

If a bunch of folks came in here dressed like Colonel Sanders with white masks sitting in the back, I mean, that would be...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Just the idea that he thought that a bunch of people dressed like Colonel Sanders wearing white masks would be supportive of his clients tells you a lot about the approach of this attorney.

CAMEROTA: I guess. I mean, it's hard to know why he introduced that concept there.

All three defendants in this case are white, as are 11 of the 12 jurors. This morning, Gough tried to clean up those comments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOUGH: If my statements yesterday were overly broad, I will follow up with a more specific motion on Monday, putting that -- those concerns in the proper context. And my apologies to anyone who might have inadvertently been offended.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Let's go now to Ryan Young in Brunswick, Georgia.

So what was the impact of those comments, Ryan?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You guys remember this yesterday, because it happened on your show. We fought to put this in and play that by so you guys could hear it.

And I can tell you the reaction even outside the court was one of disbelief when these statements were being made. And I think in the 24 hours since, it's actually sent somewhat a crack between all the defense attorneys.

One of the other defense attorneys actually walked out during lunchtime and wanted to give us a statement. We hadn't really had that happen in quite some time. And he wanted to address the comments himself. In fact, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON SHEFFIELD, ATTORNEY FOR TRAVIS MCMICHAEL: There's been a lot of reporting on a statement made by Kevin Gough yesterday in court about wanting no more black pastors.

That statement was totally asinine, ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: Guys, let's be honest. This could put a fracture between the three teams, because, at any point, one of them could separate from the other. So it's interesting to see how this is playing out.

And even today, some of the tense moments have centered around the same attorney. And there have been people who say he basically lit a candle. There are people who now are planning to come to town based upon his statements.

Outside of that right now, I continue to watch what's going on in court. There's a GBI investigator who's on the stand right now who's talking about their initial investigation. But let's not also forget yesterday was a very long day, in terms of what happened in court, where Larry English was basically a video deposition that lasted more than three hours.

That lasted so long, a lot in the jury were tired. So, at this point, it's lucky that we have live guests, because they at this point are now more engaged than what they were yesterday. But those comments were made outside the jury's presence. But I can tell you the ripple effect here has been really felt in the community.

There are people in the clergy who say they're going to double down on their efforts next week. This could get a lot more interesting -- guys.

CAMEROTA: Oh, my goodness. All right, Ryan Young, thank you very much for all of that.

So, last night, Ahmaud Arbery's mother was asked about the defense attorneys comments, claiming the presence of black pastors may intimidate the jury. Here's what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WANDA COOPER-JONES, MOTHER OF AHMAUD ARBERY: We're very surprised to know that he frowned upon anybody, any pastor that would come in to sit with the family, to keep us encouraged. It was very in -- it was just very insensitive that he would frown upon that, very surprising, but also very, very rude.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Let's discuss all of this and the developments with attorney and civil rights activist Barbara Arnwine. She's the founder of Transformative Justice Coalition and has been in the court with the Arbery family throughout this trial.

Miss Arnwine, thank you very much for being here.

Before we get to all the comments and the apology, if that's what you want -- how you want to frame it, it's day six of this trial. How is the family doing?

BARBARA ARNWINE, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, TRANSFORMATIVE JUSTICE COALITION: The family is struggling. This is very hard to constantly see the graphics, see the videos and to hear the testimony on how their beloved son, how their beloved uncle, cousin, nephew was treated in his last hours, that horrifying five minutes, where he was trapped and just trucked down and killed unnecessarily, just hurts the families.

It's tearing their hearts apart. But at the same time, they have hope, because they are hopeful that there will be justice in this trial. CAMEROTA: OK, so about the defense attorney's comments, let's start

first with what he said which has caused all the controversy: We don't want any more about black pastors coming in here. If a bunch of folks came in here dressed like Colonel Sanders, with white masks sitting in the back, I mean, that would be -- I think he said garbage.

What does that even mean?

ARNWINE: He is disgraceful.

[14:25:00]

He is equating people like Reverend Jesse Louis Jackson, who hasn't even been here yet, but he's coming -- he will be here all next week with us. He is equating them with the Ku Klux Klan. Who wears white masks, people? Who wears white mask and Colonel Sanders?

This is one of the worst racist comments I have ever heard in a courtroom. He ought to be disciplined by the Georgia state bar for doing this. It is definitely inexcusable behavior. And this half- apology he gave today, talking about if somebody was inadvertently hurt, oh, come on. He knew those were hurtful and mean comments when he made them.

And he knew that he was wrong. And he should have just said, I made a horrible mistake. I apologize to everybody for my inappropriate comments. But, instead, he's talking about filing a motion Monday to further this argument.

So I don't think he's learned a thing. And I think he really should be disciplined.

CAMEROTA: Is Reverend Jesse Jackson coming next week as a result of these comments?

ARNWINE: No, he was planning to come anyway.

But this really has not only made him want to come, but I can tell you I have been out here on the courthouse lawn today, where we normally are as the Transformative Justice Coalition, and I have been approached by at least five ministers who are bringing ministers from their areas here to the courthouse all next week.

We are putting out a national call to ministers, black pastors, and to their allies to come and show solidarity and to show that this family can be prayed upon by everybody a good faith.

CAMEROTA: And do you think that that will be distracting in the courtroom, as the defense attorney was trying to say?

ARNWINE: Well, I think that he's going to continue to file these motions. Remember, he filed -- this is probably the fourth or fifth motion or -- quote -- "concern" he has raised in court about black presence at the courthouse.

He tried to ban my organization. He has no understanding of the First Amendment. I thought he just didn't get freedom of expression, freedom of the right of assembly, but now I realize he doesn't even understand the right of religious freedom. There is something really wrong with this man.

And it is absolutely sad that he is representing one of these defendants who is accused of having run down with his truck Mr. Arbery. This is very, very sad. Who would think this would be 2021 that we would be thinking and talking about actions that belong in the past, way deep in the 19th century.

CAMEROTA: Barbara Arnwine, thank you for your time.

And, obviously, we will be watching what happens next week.

ARNWINE: We can't wait for people to come and join us, because we will not stop. We will not be moved. We will not be silenced. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Any minute now, President Biden is scheduled to hold a Cabinet meeting on the rollout of the infrastructure bill.

New CNN reporting reveals that House progressives are split over how to deal with Senator Joe Manchin.

CAMEROTA: Plus, the deadly Astroworld festival draws more lawsuits today, all of this as more attendees share their experiences from that night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never thought that, by attending the festival, I was taking the chance that I would possibly not return home to my children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)