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COVID Cases Surging; Defense Rests in Kyle Rittenhouse Trial; Insurrection Investigation. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired November 12, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

DR. ROB DAVIDSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COMMITTEE TO PROTECT MEDICARE: About 40 percent of people are vaccinated.

And we're seeing significant numbers, largely of unvaccinated people; 90 percent of the people with COVID in our entire system across West Michigan in the ICU are unvaccinated people.

So that is really still what's driving the people coming into hospitals and end up getting in ICUs, getting on ventilators, are unvaccinated people.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Yes, I think that's a very important reminder. And the pandemic continues apace because of unvaccinated people, as we hear time and again from all of our emergency room doctors,

But I am interested in how these three states with the highest vaccination rates are seeing cases spike. Does that mean that it is definitely time for boosters? I mean, what else -- how else do we interpret this?

DAVIDSON: Yes, I think we have to keep trying to get people to get their first shot, because that's going to keep the virus out there propagating.

But, yes, people who have had their vaccines more than six months ago are certainly at higher risk of getting a positive test. We don't know what that means yet for the number of people getting hospitalized. Again, we're still not seeing that -- those numbers go up significantly, those vaccinated people getting extremely sick.

They may be testing positive, they may get some minor symptoms, and that's largely OK. It would be nice, though, to get everyone boosted if we could, so that we can avoid that, avoid people taking time off of work and kids missing school.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Well, speaking of everybody being boosted, let's go to Colorado, where the governor of Colorado has now said that it's OK for everyone six months out from their last shot 18 and older to get a booster shot.

That's ahead of the CDC guidance, ahead of the FDA that has it for those 65 and older and specific categories. Is that a good thing? DAVIDSON: I completely support that. I really do. Again, I think it's

one thing to say we can avoid hospitalizations, we can avoid severe illness. And that is critically important. These vaccines, even six, eight, 10 months out, are still doing that.

But the disruptions in schools, the disruptions at the workplace, and particularly in health care workers, which luckily we can get boosted now everywhere, that is something we need to try to avoid. And so I understand the need to get those vaccine doses out the door to other countries.

I don't think that this will have an impact on that. I think there's a lot of supply chain issues there and other regulatory issues that have to happen. So, yes, I support getting as many people boosted as possible to try to bring this under control a little better.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Rob Davidson, we always appreciate having you on. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Thanks, doctor.

DAVIDSON: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: Top of a brand-new hour. I'm Victor Blackwell.

CAMEROTA: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

More defiance from Donald Trump's inner circle and more possible charges from Congress in the investigation into the Capitol insurrection.

President Trump's former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows did not show up for his deposition today. The committee issued a subpoena for documents and testimony about the events of January 6 and what he knows. And the chairman told him, if you don't comply, you could face charges of contempt.

Meadows claims his communications with the president at the time are privileged.

BLACKWELL: Now, Meadows is the second key witness to defy the committee's subpoenas. Three weeks ago, the House did file a charge against former Trump aide Steve Bannon, referred it over to the DOJ for that. We are still waiting to see if the Attorney General Merrick Garland will prosecute.

CNN's Kara Scannell is following these developments for us.

So what is Meadows' justification for defying the subpoena? Explain that more.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure. Hey, Victor and Alisyn.

I mean, this morning, Meadows was set to appear at 10:00 a.m. That's what the committee told him to do or risk being -- possibly getting a criminal referral to the Department of Justice for contempt. Now, Meadows didn't show. And his lawyer issued a statement this

morning, said that there was a sharp legal dispute between them and the committee. The issues that he highlighted, he said that it was unclear whether the committee could compel Meadows to testify. He was Trump's former chief of staff around January 6. And if he did come in and answer questions, the big issue here is whether he could answer any questions about executive privilege.

He's saying that as an issue that is for the courts. And that is where it is now, after, yesterday, a federal appeals court agreeing to a momentary delay to the National Archives releasing documents that Trump wanted to block to the House committee, the appellate court now saying that they will take this up on an expedited basis, that they will receive briefing over the next two weeks and hold oral arguments in this in November.

Then a decision in this could come as soon as early December. The wildcard here is if then that decision, either way that it goes, is ultimately brought to the Supreme Court. So there's the dual tension here of some of these witnesses that are allies of Trump relying on this question about executive privilege, and this parallel issue proceeding in the courts.

And, as you said, the issue of whether the justice primer will act on Steve Bannon has not been resolved now three weeks after that referral was made -- Victor, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Kara Scannell, thank you for the reporting.

We are also getting some alarming new insights into what Donald Trump was thinking as the instruction was unfolding, particularly about his vice president.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIOTERS: Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: So. in new audio published by Axios today, the former president is heard justifying those chants.

Now, this is from an interview in March with journalist Jonathan Karl.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS: Were you worried about him during that siege? Were you worried about his safety?"

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I thought he was well-protected, and I had heard that he was in good shape. No, because I had heard he was in very good shape.

But -- but, no, I think... KARL: Because you heard those chants -- that was terrible. I mean, it was the...

TRUMP: He could have -- well, the people were very angry.

KARL: They were saying, "Hang Mike Pence."

TRUMP: Because it's common sense, Jon. It's common sense that you're supposed to protect. How can you -- if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Joining us now, Olivia Troye. She was one of Vice President Pence's advisers. And Renato Mariotti, a former federal prosecutor.

Welcome to you both.

Olivia, listen, we become desensitized often with the incremental developments as we learn more from these books and these interviews. But the idea that the former president said it's common sense that they would want to lynch my vice president, to push this lie, it's not surprising, but still stunning.

What do you think when you hear what we heard from the president?

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL: I thought that audio was horrifying, to be honest.

I thought that it was also just incredibly disturbing to listen to that and think about the fact that that was once the leader of our country, that that was once the president of the United States and that, basically, there was an attack on his own vice president being carried out, and he didn't care, didn't think anything of it.

And he certainly didn't do anything to stop it. And I think it's just alarming to think about all the phone calls made to the White House that we have seen the reporting on, the calls for the National Guard to be sent. And I just think that -- I have to say that I have no words to describe the fact that it is so hard, especially as a national security person, to watch this happening on our -- in our own country.

This is stuff that you see in foreign countries, other places that are not democracies. And I just -- I worry about what this says about the future of our country, when this person is still out there in the orbit potentially politically and potentially running in the future.

CAMEROTA: Olivia, you always try to get our attention about this stuff. And I hear your warnings. And I understand why you're so concerned.

And I just have a follow up for you, because you worked with the vice president. You know that the select committee wants to interview people in may in Vice President Pence's inner circle about what they knew about what was happening on January 6. Do you think that hearing something like this will make them more inclined to help the committee?

TROYE: I hope so. I don't know how you live through that day and don't look back on that and think to yourself, I need to tell the truth about what happened here, for the sake of the history of our country, for the sake of going forward for our country.

There's a whole population out there that really still needs to hear it firsthand from people who were there that day on the Republican side of the House, and especially from Mike Pence's staff. They have the clear, honest details about what they saw, what they witnessed, and how long they waited there as this whole thing played out.

And I'm hopeful. Like, I have -- honestly, the one person I have great hope for is Greg Jacob, who I worked with extensively. I worked with that inner circle very closely, obviously. But I do know that he is a man of integrity. And I hope that that integrity will shine through at this moment where we really need it.

BLACKWELL: Renato, explain the value of this recording, this, I guess, retelling from the former president to the select committee.

RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, I think it's going to potentially shine some light on the intent regarding why he didn't take actions when there was an attack on the Capitol, any delay there, why he didn't give certain orders.

In other words, it certainly could be the case the president could say -- former president could say, I wasn't aware, I didn't think it was a serious situation.

Here, he is saying in the face of a reporter telling him that there was not only obviously an apparent attack at the Capitol, but also threats against his vice president. He was saying he thought that was justified. That could corroborate other evidence that they have regarding his intent not to provide additional protection to Pence or to make it easier for those insurrectionists who were attacking the Capitol.

CAMEROTA: Olivia, we were talking earlier, Victor and I, about how stunning it is to hear Vice President Pence still sort of curry favor, I guess is the only way to explain it, with Donald Trump, and say, we have a good relationship now. Bygones.

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BLACKWELL: Yes. We had a good conversation after the insurrection.

CAMEROTA: Why is he doing that?

TROYE: Look, it's incredibly upsetting to watch him do that, to me as well. I wish that he would behave differently. And I wish that he would be out there just setting the record straight about what really went on. But I think the calculus, it's political, with like -- with what we're

seeing with a lot of these leaders that are exchanging power and that political dream in exchange for truth and courage and integrity in a moment for our country where we really need that right now from people that are leaving our country.

And so I think Pence is looking forward to 2024. He knows he's got an uphill battle because he is seen as a traitor in what is the Trump base of the Republican Party, and anyone who runs in that race will need that base likely to come forward if Trump doesn't run himself. If Trump runs himself, it's over.

BLACKWELL: Renato, it's probably, what, five hours now beyond the deadline for Mark Meadows to show and offer documents as part of this subpoena, three weeks beyond the criminal referral for Steve Bannon.

Is this period of deliberation at the DOJ, is this now in some ways impeding the rest of the investigation? Or is this time just annoying to some who want the attorney general to move forward quickly?

MARIOTTI: So, regarding Bannon, I just think that's just a pure annoyance.

In other words, Bannon, I think, handled this as poorly as he possibly could have done in order to put himself in a position to avoid prosecution. So that's, I think, the easiest case that the DOJ is going to have to prosecute, and I assume they're getting their ducks in a row.

It's obviously -- it's actually very difficult. Criminal contempt is a very difficult charge to bring. There are -- there is a mine field there, but Bannon, I think, made it easy for the DOJ.

Meadows, it's a different story. Meadows is somebody who is, I think -- has tried to set himself up to avoid testimony. He his lawyer negotiated with the committee. They waited until Trump filed a suit. Now they're saying, well, we're caught between different competing interests and we want the lawsuit to play out.

They're basically trying to make it very difficult for the DOJ to prosecute him and try to introduce delay. And I think the committee should be concerned that they may not be able to get that testimony and complete their work before a new Congress enters in, in January of 2023.

BLACKWELL: All right, Renato Mariotti, Olivia Troye, thank you.

MARIOTTI: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: President Biden is meeting with his Cabinet right now on how to roll out the infrastructure money that he says will create millions of jobs and grow the economy.

Meanwhile, the great resignation continues. A record 4.4 million Americans quit their jobs in September. This huge shift in the labor market keeps up a trend that began during the pandemic. And on top of that, consumer sentiment has hit a 10 year low.

CNN reporter Matt Egan here. Matt, first, we just start with, when people quit their jobs, where are they going to get income?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, that's a great question.

I think that the fact that so many people are quitting right now shows how much leverage workers have in this economy. There are more than 10 million job openings. Businesses are desperate to hire. So workers have all the leverage and they know it and they're not shy to use it. So that's why we have seen 4.4 million people quit in September. That is another record.

August was a record too. The pandemic really just changed the way that people think about work, work/life balance. Also, a lot of people are just burned out right now. So people are -- they want more money, better benefits, more flexible work arrangements.

And if they don't get it, a lot of them are just walking away. I mean, ultimately, this is a good thing. It's not great for anyone if people are stuck in jobs where they aren't making a living wage or they just hate it. But, also, this is going to take some time to work out. And it's going to complicate things like inflation and the supply chain situation.

And so we got more evidence today of how this historic inflation is impacting the psyche of consumers. Consumer sentiment fell to a 10- year low. That is lower than at any point during COVID, which is kind of crazy.

And a lot of this is about inflation. Some of these stats I want to show you that make that point, one in four people have seen their living standards drop because of inflation. Half of all families are bracing for their inflation-adjusted income to fall. People are citing home, vehicle and durable inflation more than any point in half-a- century.

One-year inflation expectations have climbed to the highest level since 2008, back when we saw oil prices hit record highs. And that last point is really key, because if consumers and business owners, they start to anticipate inflation, it's going to change their behavior.

And the risk is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And we don't want that.

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BLACKWELL: Yes, certainly not.

Some really good numbers over the last seven days and some really bad numbers as well.

Matt Egan, thank you.

EGAN: Thanks. CAMEROTA: Thanks, Matt.

All right, we have some breaking news right now, stunning, actually. Glen de Vries, he's the businessman who flew to space last month with Jeff Bezos' company, Blue Origin, has died in a small plane crash.

BLACKWELL: This is remarkable.

Let's go straight to now CNN's Kristin Fisher.

So what more do we know?

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Just some devastating news here.

I mean, Alisyn and Victor, just imagine you survive this very risky trip to space less than a month ago. You come back to Earth and then you're killed in a small plane crash. That is what happened. That is the absolutely tragic story of what happened to 49 year old Glen de Vries on Thursday.

The New Jersey State Police are saying that he was on board a small four-seater Cessna, when that plane crashed in a wooded area of Hampton Township in New Jersey. That's about 40 miles Northwest of New York City, also on board, 54-year-old Thomas Fischer. The exact circumstances of why this plane went down and what happened are still being investigated by the FAA -- excuse me -- by the NTSB.

But, as you can imagine, the tributes are now pouring, in particular, for Glen de Vries, who was such a critical part of the team. He was part of the mission alongside the actor William Shatner, the original Captain Kirk.

And I had a chance to actually chat with Glen the night before the launch and he was just so excited to be getting to fulfill his lifelong dream to go in this space. He was a private pilot. He had this lifelong love of aviation. He had dreamed about becoming an astronaut since he was a kid, never thought that it would actually happened to him.

He went on to become a tech entrepreneur. He was now the vice chairman of life sciences and health care at Dassault Systems. And then this happens.

So let me just share with you the statement from Blue Origin, the company that was responsible for fulfilling Glen's dream. They put out a statement that reads: "We are devastated to hear of the sudden passing of Glen de Vries. He brought so much life and energy to the entire Blue Origin team and to his fellow crewmates. His passion for aviation, his charitable work and his dedication to his craft will long be revered and admired."

Alisyn and Victor, I only had a few minutes to chat with Glen, but his passion for all of that certainly came through. And afterwards I kind of had to ask him. I said I hate to ask this, but everybody wants to know, how much did you pay for your seat on board that new Shepard spacecraft?

And he was very polite and modest. He demurred. He wouldn't say. All he would tell me is that whatever he paid, it was worth it. And our thoughts and prayers certainly go out to him, his company and the entire Blue Origin team today -- Victor And Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Absolutely, just so tragic that after this life-changing journey that something like this happens in a small, small plane.

Kristin Fisher in Washington for us, thank you.

Closing arguments are set for Monday in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, a lot of negotiations about jury instructions and lesser charges, also this intense focus on the judge. We will have some insight into that judge from a Wisconsin lawyer. That's ahead.

CAMEROTA: And Britney Spears may soon be free. A judge in California will rule on her request to end her controversial conservatorship today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:23:06]

CAMEROTA: The judge in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial says he will decide tomorrow whether the jury will consider any lesser charges. The teenager has been on trial for homicide after shooting and killing two people and wounding a third last year during racial justice protests.

BLACKWELL: Well, Judge Bruce Schroeder has attracted a lot of scrutiny. He regularly chastised the prosecutor.

And now he's receiving some backlash for this comedy made yesterday just as court was breaking for lunch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE BRUCE SCHROEDER, KENOSHA COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: Let's hope for 1:00. I don't know. The -- hope the Asian food isn't coming -- isn't on one of those boats in Long Beach Harbor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: All right, let's discuss this with CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson and Dan Adams, a former prosecutor in Wisconsin who is now a defense attorney.

Gentlemen, welcome.

Dan, let me start with you, because this judge has a history of these unusual antics and really sentences, ordered HIV/AIDS test for sex workers, sentenced a convicted shoplifter to tell store managers that she was on supervision when she walked into a retail shop.

You are there in Milwaukee. Is what we have watched over the last couple of days typical or even -- from your perspective, this is beyond that?

DAN ADAMS, FORMER MILWAUKEE PROSECUTOR: Well, I think what we're seeing from Bruce Schroeder is a particular judge's particularities.

Every judge has their idiosyncrasies. And, fortunately or unfortunately, we are seeing Judge Schroeder's in the bright lights of the media in this national trial. I don't think he's being unfair to one side or the other in this particular case.

I think he is protecting the rights of the accused, which ultimately is one of his jobs as the judge overseeing this case.

BLACKWELL: Joey, not unfair to one side or the other. What do you think?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No, listen, at the end of the day, a judge, remember this, Victor, is like a referee, right?

Think about a sporting event where you have someone who's calling balls and strikes, blowing the whistle and ensuring the fairness of the proceedings, OK?

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And so, when you look at it from that perspective, that judge really lost it as it related to one of the lawyers, the prosecutor infringing upon the rights of really someone who has a right to remain silent, so the judge really lost it when it came to that. And I should say that there's a lot of observers who were looking saying, wow, what's what's happening in the courtroom? Oh, my goodness, look at the judge.

This happens every day in courts in America. I have been chastised before. I will freely admit, right, that I have been. I have been in courtrooms where my adversary is chastised. When you run afoul of really the rules of engagement, a judge will let you know, and they will let you know quickly.

And I think that's what this particular judge does. Now, with respect to the offhand comments about things stuck in harbors, et cetera, that's another matter. But with respect, Victor, to keeping the lawyers in order, judges in New York or any other jurisdiction are going to do just that.

BLACKWELL: Joey, let me stay with you on this other moment that happened yesterday in which there were applause. I remember looking over a monitor and thinking, they're applauding. I didn't have audio. I did not know why. So let's play it and then we will talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHROEDER: I wanted to just observe that it's Veterans Day. And any veterans in the room on the jury or anywhere else?

Well, that's unusual not to have at least somebody in here. Well, Dr. Black is -- what branch?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Army, sir.

SCHROEDER: OK. and I think we can give a round of applause to the people who have served our country.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Now, he's a veteran. It was Veterans Day.

But if you're the prosecutor, how do you feel about the judge asking people to applaud for a defense witness?

JACKSON: Yes.

What I took that as is just it's Veterans Day, and as a result of it being Veterans Day that we should acknowledge and take a moment to acknowledge all of the veterans, which I think it's perfectly appropriate.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

JACKSON: Now, to the extent that you would be doing that with any witness if the jury is present becomes problematic, because it would otherwise be bolstering.

But so if those facts are that the jury is present and it happens to be a witness that is a veteran who's testifying, another case, but just to recognize the contributions of the men and women who serve this country is quite another matter.

BLACKWELL: Dan, let's go now to closing arguments start on Monday. Each side will have two-and-a-half-hours.

Let's examine here what the mission and the challenges are, Dan, for the state, what you see their challenges are as they try to close this out.

ADAMS: This is a really interesting case, insofar as a lot of the facts are known. In fact, I would say 99 percent of the facts are known, because all of this stuff was on video, Facebook Messenger live, everybody livestreaming, the drone, the FBI plane.

In terms of finding the facts, there's very few facts to find. The jury is really going to be deciding whether or not Kyle Rittenhouse acted reasonably in his use of force. It's something that only a jury can find. And they're putting these facts to their collective wisdom. And it's up to both parties, Tom Binger for the prosecution, and Mark Richards for the defense, to show their side.

And, frankly, we really don't know what's going to happen until those 12 people get together and put those facts to those jury instructions and come out with a conclusion.

BLACKWELL: Going into closing arguments, Joey, do you see one side having an advantage after their handling of witnesses, specifically Kyle Rittenhouse?

JACKSON: I mean, I do.

I think -- listen, I think on the one portion of it, you can make the argument that Rittenhouse shouldn't have been there in the first instance. Who did he think he was? He was too young. He thought he was an EMT. He thought he was a cop. But that's not the issue. Right?

If you could frame the issue that he shouldn't have been there in the first place, then it's a winning argument. But the jury is not there to decide that. They're there to decide whether or not the force was appropriate.

And I think that defense has been very effective at demonstrating just that with regard to putting him on the stand and humanizing him, with respect to allowing him to explain in his own words why he had to use force relative to the three people who were coming at him, why he felt that he was in immediate fear of death or serious bodily injury, and then, finally, Victor to the extent that reasonability is going to be important, why he acted reasonable.

And the defense also highlighted that he ran to the precinct at some point thereafter in close proximity to when this occurred. When we look at consciousness of guilt, which is a defendant say, I'm guilty, you run away from the police.

So we will see. Look, jurors do what they do. There's a lot to evaluate. Both sides have made effective points. But on the issue of really whittling away, remember the standard, beyond a reasonable doubt, I think the defense has whittled away and really made the case that this could be self-defense.

BLACKWELL: All right.

Joey Jackson, Dan Adams, thank you.

ADAMS: Thank you, Victor.

CAMEROTA: OK, now to this.

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