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Mike Pence Did Not Follow Guidance To Overturn Election Results; California Record High Gas Price Hurting Drivers; Dysfunction In Vice President Harris' Office Wears Down West Wing Aides; Rittenhouse Trial: Was It Self-Defense Or Murder?; FBI Investigating Fake E-mails Sent From Their Real Accounts. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired November 14, 2021 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:05]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Stunning admission. New details tonight on the pressure Trump was putting on Vice President Mike Pence the day the Capitol was stormed.
JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: You talked to him that morning and he said you could be a patriot or you could be a (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Did you really say that or is that an incorrect?
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I wouldn't dispute it.
NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Record inflation is hitting consumers' wallets, especially gas prices.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have one price one day and then tomorrow it's like up 30 cents.
CHEN: Biden's economic adviser says new legislation would help.
BRIAN DEESE, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: But those concerns underscore why it's so important that we move forward on the Build Back Better legislation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tension and frustration behind the scenes over Vice President Kamala Harris' role in the White House.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Madam Vice President, a little while after this is over, maybe we can talk and see how things are going OK for you. All right?
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'd like that. Thank you, Mr. President.
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: The Queen pulled out of the Remembrance Day commemorations in Central London last minute and it's because she's strained her back according to Buckingham Palace.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It really does show how significant this is. How she's not cancelling lightly. She's obviously in pain.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. And tonight, a new book revealing shocking information about just how hard the Trump administration was pushing Vice President Mike Pence to overturn the election results before the Capitol riot.
On New Year's Eve, White House chief of staff Mike Meadows sent Pence a memo not made public until now, detailing a plan to undo Joe Biden's election win. This memo is part of Jonathan Karl's upcoming book, "Betrayal: The Final Act of the Trump Show."
The book says Trump attorney Jenna Ellis wrote this memo. It instructed Pence to send back the electoral votes from six battleground states Trump falsely claimed he won, and then give those states an unrealistic deadline to send back a new set of votes. When some states inevitably would miss that deadline, their electoral votes would be voided and their Republican-led delegations would vote for Trump, giving him the reelection which he so desperately wanted.
Now obviously Pence did not follow that guidance and went on to properly certify the election, but not before Donald Trump issued a not-so-subtle threat at the Stop the Steal rally January 6th. Jonathan Karl asked Trump about one of his more controversial comments in an interview for the book.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: There was a report, and excuse my language.
TRUMP: Go ahead.
KARL: Not mine, it was in the report.
TRUMP: Yes.
KARL: That you talked to him that morning and you said, you could be a patriot or you can be a (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Did you really say that or is that an incorrect?
TRUMP: I wouldn't dispute it.
KARL: Really?
TRUMP: I wouldn't dispute it.
KARL: If Pence did what you wanted, you think you would still be in the White House?
TRUMP: I think we would have won, yes.
KARL: Can you ever forgive him for that?
TRUMP: I don't know because I picked him. I like him. I still like him. But I don't know that I can forgive him.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Some people see Pence as a hero for resisting the tremendous amount of pressure to overturn valid election results. But it's obvious that Trump and many of his supporters feel much differently. Carl asked Trump about the odds of seeing a Trump-Pence ticket again in 2024.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: I mean, I assume Pence is no longer on that list.
TRUMP: Well, I didn't say that, but --
KARL: But I mean I can assume that, can I?
TRUMP: But he did the wrong thing. He's a very nice man. I like him a lot.
KARL: Yes.
TRUMP: I like his family so much, but he did -- it was a tragic mistake.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So according to Trump, just to make this clear, he did the wrong thing by following the Constitution.
We want to talk more about these latest revelations with Olivia Troye. She was an adviser to Vice President Mike Pence and is the director of the Republican Accountability Project.
Olivia, thanks so much for joining us. Look, this is the second memo we're finding out about with these efforts to overturn the election, laying out a plan for that. But what is so disturbing about this is that it was coming from inside the White House. From the White House chief of staff to Mike Pence's team, to his top aide. What do you make of the amount of pressure Pence was under to overturn the election?
OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER PENCE ADVISER: Well, no doubt he was under tremendous pressure to overturn this election, and I think, you know, incredible that he stood strong and did his duty and certified the election results as was the right thing to do. But knowing the dynamics here between the Trump team and the Mike Pence office, this is something that was -- that I've apparently seen firsthand before on how this sort of dynamic plays out.
But I can imagine that the amount of bullying internally, the amount of intimidation, and like it's -- you know, when you're in a situation like this, it can be frightening, and -- because you know that there can be consequences where people's lives potentially can be put at risk depending on the actions of these individuals.
[18:05:19] And we saw that play out before our very eyes on January 6th.
BROWN: We did. A short time after Trump made his comments at the Stop the Steal rally, we saw rioters storming the U.S. Capitol and screaming threats against Mike Pence. At first Pence didn't -- we got some.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Yes, so as you can hear, the chanting "Hang Mike Pence." At first Pence didn't want to leave the Capitol but he eventually agreed to evacuate as the rioters breached the building. When Jonathan Karl asked Donald Trump about that day, and the danger his vice president along with members of Congress were in during the riot, the former president seemed quite unconcerned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Were you worried about him during that siege? Were you worried about his safety?
TRUMP: No, I thought he was well protected and I had heard that he was in good shape. No. Because I had heard he was in very good shape. But, no, I think --
KARL: Because you heard those chants. That was terrible. I mean, those, you know, the --
TRUMP: He could have -- well the people were very angry.
KARL: They're saying hang Mike Pence.
TRUMP: Because it's common sense, Jon, it's common sense that you're supposed to protect. How can you -- if you know a vote is fraudulent, right?
KARL: Yes.
TRUMP: How can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress?
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And as we know, as I have said so many times, the vote wasn't fraudulent, the election was not stolen, Donald Trump lost. But, Olivia, what does that say how the former president's response toward his vice president, who was unfailingly loyal to him, really, up until it came down to not violating the Constitution with this ceremonial role. What does that say to you?
TROYE: I think it shows Donald Trump's plain disregard for our democracy and for our entire U.S. government system. I mean, the fact that this was a president of the United States who -- in a very, very much dereliction of duty moment, he completely turns a blind eye to what's happening, and I think he relished the events on January 6th. I think that to him it fueled his ego. I think that it was played into his hands.
And I don't think, you know, Mike Pence was an afterthought to him. It wasn't, you know, any normal person in that situation would have been freaking out that his own vice president's life was in danger and the lives of his family and the leaders of our country. This is absolutely abnormal, horrible reckless behavior from the former leader of our country. But I'm concerned about the fact that the Donald Trump effect is still in play here in our politics still today.
BROWN: Do you think that has anything to do with the fact that Mike Pence hasn't talked much about this publicly, hasn't talked about how Donald Trump handled the situation, because he still has so much sway right now in the political landscape?
TROYE: Unfortunately, you know, the Republican Party is held hostage by the Trump aides, I would say. That is right now the party is a party of Trump, and there's no way around that.
And I think Mike Pence, when he looks at his 2024 aspirations, he knows that he's going to need that base along the way if he has any chance of actually getting the nomination. But I would say at what cost? At what cost to our democracy? At what cost of continuing to live this lie, the lie that almost led to your own life being endangered.
BROWN: Do you think Pence will run in 2024 against Trump perhaps?
TROYE: I think it's an uphill battle for him. Given the landscape, I mean, he's seen as a traitor by most of his base. But I don't think he's ruled it out. I think that is something that he definitely had aspirations for.
BROWN: All right. Olivia Troye, thank you so much.
Well, President Biden just hours away from cementing his hard-fought and much needed legislative win. A bipartisan group of lawmakers will join him tomorrow as he signs his infrastructure spending plan into law. It will fund improvements to a sprawling list of items, roads, bridges, airports even environmental clean-ups.
And earlier today, the top White House economic adviser urged passage of the president's massive economic package to combat rising inflation that is squeezing Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEESE: Well, inflation is high right now, and it is affecting consumers in their pocketbook and also their outlook for the economy. But those concerns underscore why it's so important we move back to the Build Back Better legislation. This legislation that the House is going to consider this week. This more than anything will go at the cost that Americans face. We're confident that Speaker Pelosi is going to bring it up and that it will get passed this week. We'll move forward to the next process and moving into the Senate.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
[18:10:06]
BROWN: CNN's Natasha Chen is in Los Angeles as California wrestles with record high gas prices.
Natasha, what are drivers telling you?
CHEN: Well, Pamela, they're telling me this really hurts and it may be affecting their plans for the holiday travel season. Now we did see a record-breaking average statewide gas price today, $4.68. But you can see the gas station behind me is charging even more than that. And this is -- and we're seeing a lot of this around the area, not just at this station, that $5.09 for regular, that's only if you pay cash. It's actually more if you use a credit card.
So it is very drastic for people here in California who are already used to paying more because they know about the environmental fees, the higher gas taxes, that they've paid for years. But a couple of drivers told me even so this is really hurting their wallets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITZI ARCHER, LOS ANGELES DRIVER: Oh, my god. It costs about $100 to fill up my tank. Yes. Premium. I use premium. And gas is absolutely expensive right now.
ANTHONY GEORGE, LOS ANGELES DRIVER: With the emissions requirements, our gas prices are definitely higher than the nation. We know that. So, you know, I just said forget it, I'm going to go get me a hybrid.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
CHEN: And that man did show me the hybrid that he bought. He says he's now saving about $400 to $500 per month because he does have to drive a lot for work. And the woman there was also telling me she's seen the freeways packed now with more people going back to work.
The kids may be back in school but even AAA tells us there is pent-up demand after the pandemic for people to really get out there on the road. At the same time, oil production in the U.S. is down 14 percent, compared to the end of 2019. So higher demand, lower production, and we have these prices -- Pamela.
BROWN: All right, Natasha Chen, thanks for bringing us the latest there from Los Angeles.
And we have exclusive new CNN reporting tonight. A whole host of insiders revealing the simmering tension between the vice president and the White House. Bakari Sellers says Kamala Harris' policy portfolio has always been, quote, "trashed" and he weighs in up next.
Also ahead, tonight, fake FBI e-mails sent from FBI accounts hit at least 100,00 inboxes. How hackers infiltrated the system. And then reassuring words from the British prime minister after another public no-show by the Queen.
Plus "Saturday Night Live" had some fun with Ted Cruz's beef with Big Bird. Have you seen this?
You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But when Big Bird told children to get vaccinated against a deadly disease, I said enough. And I created my own "Sesame Street" called "Cruz Street."
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:17:06]
BROWN: New tonight, tension and frustration simmering inside the White House. Sources tell CNN Vice President Kamala Harris feels increasingly sidelined and handicapped in her own presidential aspirations. CNN has compiled accounts from nearly three dozen current and former Harris aides, administration officials, Democratic operatives, donors and outside advisers. And they describe a White House divided.
On one side, members of Harris' inner circle who believes she's being set up to fail instead of being positioned to be a future president. But on the other side, West Wing staffers are exasperated by what they perceived as Harris' blunders including fumbled answers on Israel and the border crisis.
The journalist behind all of this CNN reporting, senior reporter Isaac Dovere. He joins me now. Also with us, CNN political commentator and former Republican congresswoman from Utah, Mia Love, and CNN political commentator and former South Carolina Democratic state lawmaker, Bakari Sellers.
What a panel this is. Isaac, we're going to kick it off with you. This is reporting from you and Jasmine Wright. Tell us, what is behind all this finger-pointing?
EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, where we stand is the vice president is, of course, a heartbeat away from the presidency. She could be running as Joe Biden's running mate in just three years here, but the campaign would start, obviously, much sooner than that. It would be a critical validator for a president who'd be running for reelection at 82 years old. Or she may be running in a -- for the nomination herself if Joe Biden decides not to ultimately run, though he has of course pledged to run for reelection.
In any of those scenarios, there are a lot of people who care sincerely for the vice president and for her political future who feel like she is not being set up well for whatever the future may hold, whether it's to be president or to run for president. And they're really getting frantic about what's going on, feeling like she's been sidelined. But of course there's a lot of issues within her own operation that have led to some of the problems that in turn lead to some of the sideline.
BROWN: So listen to this candid moment between the president and his VP earlier in the week?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Madam Vice President, in a little while after this is over, maybe we can talk and see how things are going OK for you. All right?
HARRIS: I'd like that. Thank you, Mr. President.
BIDEN: OK.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So given the reporting that you just laid out, it raises the question, that did seem like a warm exchange or is this just for the cameras?
DOVERE: I think it's a genuinely warm exchange between two people who have a genuinely warm relationship. The dynamic between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris remains good. It's a dynamic that -- between some folks in the West Wing and the vice president's office that is not great and more than that it's this world of loyalists and allies and supporters of the vice president who look at what's going on and say they don't see enough being done for her, enough being done to give her good issues to work on, enough getting out there and being a presence in her own right.
[18:20:08]
I talked to Donna Brazile who is a longtime Democratic operator, who was one of the people who pushed for Harris to be on the ticket and has remained an outside adviser and she said to me, don't make her a creature of the beltway. Let her out. She said, Air Force II should be kept gassed constantly and ready to go. She told me that the vice president should be out on the road talking about things that are important to this administration 75 percent of the time, four, five days a week.
BROWN: But yet she, I believe it was on the day of the big vote on infrastructure, she went to like a NASA tour, right?
DOVERE: She did.
BROWN: Why is that?
DOVERE: She did, and the argument that was made to me by the vice president's staff was that the House was being crazy, taking all day to vote on this bill. And she wasn't going to change her schedule because of that. But that feeds the impression that she is not a central player in whipping votes and in helping get the legislation forward in the house and also out in front of the American people. The truth is, she, of course, was doing some calls behind the scenes
and was up in the residence with the president at the White House on the night that the vote happened, and the president thanked her specifically the day afterwards when he made that speech. But you see even members of Congress who are struggling to figure out exactly what they're getting out of her. The congresswoman from California who's a big supporter of Kamala Harris named Nanette Barragan whom Harris had worked on to try to get her to vote for the infrastructure bill.
Barragan is a progressive, had a lot of reservations about going forward with it, and someone familiar with what Barragan's decision- making process told me that she appreciated talking to the vice president but ultimately actually what drove the decision to vote for the bill for that congresswoman was not that conversation or any of the conversations with the vice president. But the way that the Congressional Progressive Caucus went overall.
BROWN: All right. Fantastic reporting of the innerworkings, what's going on behind the scenes there in the White House between the VP's office and the president's office.
Edward-Isaac Dovere, thank you.
DOVERE: Thank you.
BROWN: And let's continue this discussion with Mia and Bakari.
All right, Mia, let's start with you. It could be argued that the Biden administration has a lot of handicaps, right, itself? With bad optics and garbled messaging. You heard that report there. How much do you think Vice President Harris should take heat for that?
MIA LOVE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it is bad news. I mean, according to the latest polls, "USA Today" and Suffolk University, Vice President Kamala Harris, her approval rating is under 28 percent, and the president himself is just slightly above that under 38 percent, and so it's not looking good.
BROWN: Well, just to -- I just want to really interrupt really quick. That's on the CNN poll. I believe the president was 45 percent on the CNN poll. But go ahead.
LOVE: Well, it's not looking good. And all the polls out there are saying that the approval ratings is not where it should be for the vice president and the president. And I think -- well, I shouldn't say think, I know it's because people are feeling the inflation, they're feeling the rising prices of gas. They're feeling all of these things that are really hurting the American people.
And frankly, I don't know why they're not on the same page. In my experience, I served in the administration where Barack Obama was president and Vice President Biden was his president, and then we had Mike Pence and Donald Trump, and they were all always on the same page. So I don't know what's going on and you could see that there are some disconnects there. BROWN: Well, maybe publicly they were, but Bakari, you know, I want to
talk about what you addressed this last month. When CNN political reporter April Ryan asked you if the Biden House saddled her with losing issues, immigration, abortion, voting rights among them. Here is what you said when asked if the White House was using Harris effectively.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Her portfolio is trash. I mean, her portfolio is just -- you give someone a portfolio that's not meant for them to succeed.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So are you saying that the administration is intentionally sabotaging her? What are you saying there?
SELLERS: No, I don't actually think that the reporting that we just heard or the story that came out today holds a great deal of water, to be completely honest with you.
BROWN: Just -- why do you say that because there are multiple -- go ahead.
SELLERS: When my comments were made, it deals with the fact that her portfolio included immigration and voting rights, and specifically asking the president to lean in on those issues which he has not specifically on the issue of the filibuster because we can't pass voting rights that the president of the United States himself won't use his bully pulpit to actually push for the filibuster.
The reason that I say the reporting doesn't hold water is the fact that, you know, the vice president may have had issues, the office may have had issues, they've been in office nine, 10 months, but they are just getting off on one of the if not the most successful, international trip that they've had.
[18:25:10]
I mean, the fact that they went into France, that they had to reestablish ties that were frayed, that she had an amazing, flawless trip, that she gave an amazing speech, that she did everything she was asked to do is -- shows that today when the reporting comes out when they land, that just doesn't really add for me.
Now there are criticisms that can be laid on the floor of the White House political office. There are personality issues that can be dealt with on both sides, but the fact is this vice president did a great job just over the past five, six days. And so I don't really buy the timing or the anonymous sources or the -- I mean --
BROWN: Well, there were dozens of anonymous --
SELLERS: My criticism --
BROWN: There were dozens of sources inside, outside the administration of supporting --
SELLERS: But I'm just saying, I mean, I put my -- I put my name on my criticism, and I actually sat down and spoke to individuals --
BROWN: Well, there were people who did have on the record quotes as well as Isaac laid out there.
SELLERS: But that's --
BROWN: But let me -- let me just quickly ask you, though, and I see your point she did have a trip overseas or France that went very smoothly. But here in the United States when the infrastructure bill was being passed in the House and there was this big vote, where was she publicly on that? Do you think that the Biden administration should be doing to put her front and center on big legislative victories like that?
SELLERS: I mean, she's not the -- she's not the secretary of Transportation. Look, the fact is, like there are valid criticisms of the vice president. There are valid criticisms of this White House.
This article ain't that. It's not -- it's just a hodgepodge of 75 percent anonymous sources. Particularly the timing bothers me when she actually went overseas, did exactly what she was supposed to do, representing this country, understanding that we just had a fragile sensitive issue with France, handled that flawlessly. You land and you have this.
The vice president of the United States to Donna Brazile's point does need to be front and center. She is -- probably she and Secretary Buttigieg are the best communicators this party has. We want to see her used more. I want to see her on black radio. I want to see her travel the country. I want to see those things. But like, again, I have to say that I have to defend her because it's the same people writing these articles who stated that she was so ambitious and wanted to be president.
And she's done nothing but be a great team player for the president of the United States. And so, look, I think their criticisms --
BROWN: This is --
SELLERS: There are some that are valid. This to me is just another, you know, it is what it is and she'll get past this as well.
BROWN: As a reporter, and knowing how great these reporters, don't shoot the messenger, this is what people have been telling these reporters. There is not a --
SELLERS: I am not shooting the messenger.
BROWN: They didn't just --
SELLERS: I'm not shooting the messenger. But what I am going to do is I'm going to defend the vice president of the United States after she just did yeoman's work representing this country overseas. BROWN: But you don't release a story just based on, OK, we're going to
-- that's just not how it works. I understand what you're trying to insinuate there but I can just tell you that's not how it works.
But, Mia, I want you to weigh in here because you heard Bakari lay out his case there. What do you think? Do you think that she is --
LOVE: Well, I -- look.
BROWN: -- a great messenger and should be out here more as he said?
LOVE: Look, it is easy to be a great leader, and I think everybody is going to find this, it's easy to be a great leader when things are going well. But when the crack hits that's when you know what people are made of.
SELLER: Yes. True.
LOVE: You know, and so they are dealing with some real issues and I'm telling you that disconnect, there is a disconnect there. I remember Joe Biden who had, by the way, quite a bit of experience. Historically the vice president has quite a bit more experience than the president does and it allows them to go out and give a little bit more of a gravitas. But I do not see the vice president, either not being put in the position or choosing not to, be on the same page.
It doesn't look like they're in synched from where I'm sitting. And that's where I think you're getting some of the reports and there are people that I've heard that are concerned that she is running for president way too early and that they really need to concentrate on some of the things that are going on today.
Look, I'm not an expert. I don't know what's going on in the White House. But there's obviously a disconnect. There's obviously a sentiment by the American people that this administration is not doing what they should be doing for them.
BROWN: I'm glad you guys both have the time to lay out your cases. Bakari, thank you very much.
SELLERS: Thank you.
BROWN: Mia Love, thank you.
LOVE: Thank you.
BROWN: Appreciate it.
As we get closer to tomorrow's closing arguments, the judge in the Kyle Rittenhouse homicide trial is expected to decide if the jury can consider lesser charges.
Also ahead, the Queen of England is sidelined once again. We will explain why.
[18:30:04] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The homicide trial of 18-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse may go to the jury tomorrow. Rittenhouse shot two men dead and wounded another at a protest rally in Kenosha, Wisconsin, last August. His trial has stirred strong reaction. 500 National Guard members have been put on standby outside Kenosha to help with public safety if needed.
Tomorrow closing arguments could last four to five hours. After that 12 jurors will be selected from the pool of 18 who have heard this case. We still don't have official word whether the judge will allow the jury to consider lesser charges.
Joining me now to discuss what happens next, criminal defense attorney Page Pate.
Welcome, Page. Good to see you again. So at the end of the day this boils down to the question, when Kyle Rittenhouse fired his weapon, was it self-defense or murder?
[18:35:02]
You think it's time we start talking about reforming statutory self- defense laws. Explain that.
PAGE PATE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Pamela, I think states across the country, especially conservative states, have been very proactive in making self-defense laws stronger for the people that use firearms. And in some situations, that, of course, makes sense if you're defending yourself, if you're defending another person, perhaps even defending your property.
But in situations like the Rittenhouse case where you have an individual who took a weapon, went into a situation knowing and expecting to find trouble, then uses that weapon and kill someone, injures others, is self-defense really the right thing for that type of case? Do we really want to encourage that type of behavior? So perhaps it's time for legislatures to start thinking about what self- defense laws really mean in the real world.
I mean, we've seen that in Georgia, the Ahmaud Arbery case resulted in Georgia rolling back part of its citizen's arrest laws so that this situation doesn't happen again. Perhaps other states need to think about that, too.
BROWN: And we're going to talk about the Ahmaud Arbery case in just a moment, but you also say the prosecution agreeing to let the judge instruct the jury on lesser charges is basically an admission they didn't prove their case. What kind of verdict do you expect?
PATE: Well, Pamela, I think in a situation like this it really depends on how the jury interprets the evidence. There is not much of a dispute about what happened. It's how you perceive that. Was it self- defense? Was it murder? And when you have a situation where the jury can be so polarized, you want them to have the opportunity to compromise if you want to get some sort of conviction. So if the prosecution says, look, I'm just going to leave the
intentional homicide charge on the table, they've got to say yes or no to that. There is a much greater likelihood that they'll acquit Kyle Rittenhouse and there'll be no conviction. So the prosecution said, look, Judge, give us some options here. Give us the possibility that we can at least have him convicted on a lesser charge.
BROWN: All right, Page Pate, thanks for bringing us the latest on that front.
And when we come back on this Sunday, the FBI is investigating how thousands of fake e-mails were sent out using their legitimate accounts. That story ahead.
And Queen Elizabeth is forced to miss another major event in the U.K. We're going to explain why up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:42:01]
BROWN: The FBI has a cyber mystery on its hands and it's coming from inside its own house. Somehow think e-mails. A lot of them are going out to people from a legitimate FBI source. But they're bogus. The FBI computer security officials so far have no idea how it's happening.
With me now, our national security analyst James Clapper. He was also President Obama's director of National Intelligence.
Great to see you. So these phony e-mails, 100,000 of them, they look legit, they look like a warning from the Department of Homeland Security. To be clear, they are not, they're fake. But what's the worst-case scenario that could happen if someone can pose as a government agency and send legit looking e-mails to huge numbers of people?
JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Pamela, the first concern I had at least in the initial reporting in this was that this perhaps was an insider thing, someone from within the FBI or perhaps DHS had sent this out. Now this appears to have come from a supplementary IT network, not the main corporate IT network of the FBI. And according to an announcement by the FBI, that this appears to them a -- some sort of software malfunction. So that's reassuring.
Now the question is, did someone hack into this network and take advantage of the vulnerability and caused these thousands of e-mails to be sent out? And then at least in my mind that remains to be seen. So I'm sure the FBI is focusing on this like a laser.
BROWN: All right, I want to switch gears. I want to play something that Michael Flynn, Trump's former National Security adviser, said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL FLYNN, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We are going to have one nation under God, which we must, we have to have one religion, one nation under God and one religion under God.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Your reaction to that. Wow.
CLAPPER: Well, the Mike Flynn of today is not the Mike Flynn of prior to 2014 that I know. As far as I'm concerned is two different people. He is clearly unhinged here with this kind of public statement. And you know, Pamela, what I feel bad about here is his brother, who has had a very successful Army career, he's is a four-star general and is commander of all U.S. Army troops in the Indo-Pacific.
And you have to wonder whether his troops who are Jewish, or Muslim or Hindu or none believers. If they're wondering about their commander whose brother is Mike Flynn, and you know, once again this seems to be Mike Flynn is not thinking about the implications of what he is saying even for his own family.
BROWN: I mean, I have so much I want to say about that but you laid it out quite well.
[18:45:02]
A Russian expat was arraigned a few weeks ago for lying to the FBI. He pleaded not guilty. He is regarded as a main contributor to the so- called Steele dossier that drew a lot of lines between the first Trump presidential campaign and Russia, and one of his key resources was a Democratic operative. Now you have previously said that some of the dossiers not the salacious part had been corroborated. Do you feel differently now?
CLAPPER: I do. I mean, we -- first point I would like to make about this is that when we, at President Obama's behest, President Obama's behest in December 2016, generated an intelligence community assessment on the nature and magnitude of the Russian interference in our election 2016.
We did not -- we elected not to draw on the dossier as a source for that intelligence community assessment precisely because of our uncertainties about the second and third order assets that Mr. Steele apparently used.
So for my part and those of us who participated in the intelligence community assessment, I think it proves that our skepticism was right.
BROWN: But former FBI director James Comey had written that you had advised him to brief then President-elect Trump on the contents of the Steele dossier. In hindsight, given what we know now, was that a mistake?
CLAPPER: No, I don't believe so. And the reason I felt strongly at the time that the president-elect Trump should be informed about the dossier was the mere fact it was out there, and I felt we had -- as an intelligence community had a duty to warn him of its existence. That it was only a question of time before it came out. Well, that turned out to be prescient because the following Monday after Friday of January 6th, sure enough it came out among the media.
The other reason I felt that, as did Jim Comey, I believe, that the president-elect needed to be briefed about the dossier was an illustration, potentially, of what the Russians do to generate compromise, or compromising information. Whether or not the information itself was valid or not is a secondary consideration. So to answer your question, if I had it to do over again, I'd still do what we did.
BROWN: All right, James Clapper, thanks for coming on the show.
CLAPPER: Thanks, Pamela.
BROWN: Well, a lot of Republicans did not want the bipartisan infrastructure bill to pass, but their constituents are going to benefit despite their no votes.
My "For the Record" is next.
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[18:52:12]
BROWN: Well, tomorrow, when President Biden signs the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill into law, voters from every state will benefit. That's only because 19 Republican senators and 13 Republican representatives took a stand and crossed the aisle to pass this legislation.
"For the Record," 230 Republicans in both chambers voted against much needed improvements to the nation's roads and bridges, internet, water, and energy systems. Republicans like Congresswoman Nancy Mace from South Carolina whose state gets a D-plus in 2021 from infrastructurereportcard.org.
On the day of the infrastructure vote in the House, she tweeted about flooding in her district and the risk of flood damage in places like Charleston, saying, quote, "We need to tackle this problem head on." But instead of tackling this problem head on, Congresswoman Mace voted against the bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): This $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill isn't true infrastructure. Like if we're going to do infrastructure, let's do infrastructure. Truly, for me, this was really hyper partisan, not a bipartisan bill.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: South Carolina is set to get a reported $6 billion to help fix these problems.
And then there's Kentucky. That is a state that has a C-minus from infrastructurereportcard.org, and home to the Brent Pence Bridge which connects northern Kentucky to Cincinnati, Ohio. Past presidents have tried to do something about the gridlock tied to this bridge for years. President Obama went there in 2011 when he tried to pitch infrastructure. And earlier this year, at a CNN town hall in Cincinnati, President Biden brought up that bridge and others like it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: You take a look at Ohio and Kentucky combined, there's well over -- there's thousands of bridges that need repair. Thousands. Thousands of bridges. And we should be looking at it this way. It increases commerce, number one. But guess what, the good paying union jobs.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: But that didn't stop Kentucky Republican Congressman Thomas Massie from voting against the bill. Even though a $2.7 billion plan to build a second bridge to ease the traffic could be funded in part by the bipartisan infrastructure bill.
Some of those 32 Republicans who made the decision across the aisle and backed this legislation are doing so at a political cost, being threatened, targeted as traitors from members of their own party. And there are even suggestions that some of those Republicans lose their committee assignments as punishment for backing the bill.
Republican Congressman Tom Reed of New York, who voted in favor of the bill, told me this yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Do you think the pressure for party over country right now is influencing votes in your party?
REP. TOM REED (R-NY): I would agree with that in the sense of it is easy to vote no.
[18:55:03]
You can always find a reason to vote no. It's hard to govern and vote yes. Especially when you're going against your own party. But you need that independent voice in Congress now more than ever. So I just encourage my colleagues, especially many of them that wanted to vote for this legislation and were very happy it has passed, they're kind of the vote no, hope yes group, and I would just tell you, we need to have leadership stepping forward in Washington, D.C.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So there you heard it, he raises the question, do these Republicans who voted against the bill just want the benefit from it without paying the political price?
And we come back, exclusive CNN reporting on Kamala Harris' frustrating start as vice president and the tensions brewing with the West Wing staff. Also, time is running out to help raise money for homes for our troops
with the celebrity auction on eBay. You can bid on a zoom call with me and help raise money for severely injured veterans. You've got about 30 minutes left. Check out my Twitter page, it's pinned there. We'll be right back.
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