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Closing Arguments in Rittenhouse Trial; Charles F. Coleman Jr. is Interviewed about the Rittenhouse Trial; Bannon Expected to Surrender; Renato Mariotti is Interviewed about the Bannon Indictment; White House Worn Out by Harris. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired November 15, 2021 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JANET YELLEN, TREASURY SECRETARY: The pandemic has been calling the shots for the economy and for inflation. And if we want to get inflation down, I think continuing to make progress against the pandemic.

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CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Wages are rising. The stock market, home prices near record highs. Big companies are doing well, John, and they're passing their highest costs on to consumers and they're fattening their profit margins. That's good for Wall Street. It's a strong economy, but the inflation bite is on top of everyone's mind on main street. Record high gas prices in California, for the second day in a row, a gallon of gas in California now $4.68, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Romans, thank you very much.

CNN's coverage continues right now.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Monday morning to you. The start of the week. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill.

Just an hour from now, attorneys set to begin closing arguments in the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse, who's facing six charges. The most serious carries a mandatory sentence of life in prison. The 18-year-old has pleaded not guilty to all and testified he was acting in self-defense when he shot three men, killing two and injuring one during protests in Wisconsin last year. Over the weekend, the judge indicated he will allow the jury to consider lesser charges. We'll have more on that new development for you in just a moment.

SCIUTTO: Also this news in Washington, Trump ally, former White House adviser, Steve Bannon, he is expected to surrender to authorities after being indicted on two counts of contempt of Congress. This for defying requests from the January 6th committee for testimony and documents. Defying subpoenas. You're looking at live pictures of Bannon's home right now. The committee is now warning that former Trump Chief of Staff Mark

Meadows could face the same charges after he refused to appear for a deposition following a subpoena last Friday.

Let's begin with CNN crime and justice correspondent Shimon Prokupecz. He's outside the courthouse in Kenosha.

Shimon, tell us what happens in these crucial next few hours in that courtroom?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, one of the things we're just getting word is that there may be more discussions about those charges that the jury is going to potentially be considering. The judge over on Friday, agreeing that he may include instructions to the jury that -- for them to consider lesser-degree charges.

What we're now getting word is that perhaps the judge is going to come in, there's going to be more discussions this morning on that before a final decision is made. And then after that, we will start to hear closing arguments. Each side is going to get about two and a half hours.

For the defense, obviously, their whole thing hangs on self-defense, saying that Kyle Rittenhouse was justified in firing his weapon, that he was attacked. Rittenhouse testifying himself saying how he was ambushed, how he was cornered, that he had no choice but to fire his weapon.

Prosecutors arguing that there were choices. He could have made better decisions. He could have ran in different directions. He could have done different things to avoid having to fire his weapon.

Of course, all of that will be up to the jury. The final jurors will be chosen today. There are 18 jurors in the courtroom who have been sitting there listening to this case, but only 12, obviously, will decide the case. Those 12 will get chosen later today after closing arguments. And then we will then know who the final 12 jurors are that are going to decide this case.

So, by the end of today, later this afternoon it's expected that the jurors will begin deliberations.

Jim.

HILL: Shimon Prokupecz with the latest from the courthouse there.

Shimon, thank you.

Joining us now is Charles F. Coleman, a civil rights attorney, former New York prosecutor and trial attorney.

Good to have you with us this morning.

You know, on Friday, the judge agreed with the request from the prosecutors that the jury can be given instructions on provocation. How much do you think that's going to figure into the closing arguments today that we're going to hear from the prosecution?

CHARLES F. COLEMAN JR., FORMER NEW YORK PROSECUTOR AND TRIAL ATTORNEY: Good morning.

Well, I think that's going to be a huge part of what the prosecution tries to drive home during its submission. We are likely like -- we are likely going to see the prosecution really narrow -- hammer home the narrative, excuse me, around trying to prove or establish that Rittenhouse went there and in these encounters where he ended up pulling the trigger, he did so because he was the one who was the aggressor, because he was the one who wanted to basically end off this story of him leaving his home, crossing state lines, with an assault rifle, and ultimately being the hero. And he was looking for the type of trouble that he had not been able to get into for the entire night before this actual incident occurred.

That is going to ultimately put the jury in a position where they have to make a decision as to whether it is, in fact, self-defense, as the defense is trying to make out, or whether Rittenhouse essentially went there looking for trouble.

[09:05:00]

So the fact that they're going to get this provocation instruction from the judge is huge for the prosecution because now they have a narrative that they can really sell during summation around Kyle Rittenhouse actually starting this problem that resulted in the death of two people.

SCIUTTO: One reason they are asking for the consideration of these lesser charges are concerns that they did not prove the highest, most serious charge there of homicide. And I wonder, based on your experience as a prosecutor, do you -- do you agree it's unlikely to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt of that highest charge here?

COLEMAN: Well, Jim, in this case, I do think that the prosecution is being honest with themselves and they understand that they're -- that given the facts and how things have unfolded throughout the course of this trial, it's not very likely that they will be able to prove the highest count, which is why you've seen them go for lesser charges.

Usually as a prosecutor, and one of the things that even the judge mentioned in this case, you don't always necessarily want to include lesser charges or lesser counts for the jury to consider because, as a prosecutor, what you usually want to do is try to get the top count, because that's going to give you the harshest sentence possible.

But in this case, one of the reasons why the prosecution is considering the lesser charges or wants to go after the lesser charges is because sometimes what you will end up doing is getting the jury to compromise. Maybe you don't necessarily get the top count when it comes to having the harshest sentence or the biggest charge that's on the indictment, but, ultimately, you walk away with something and sometimes that's what happens when juries get together, they decide, well, we don't want to necessarily go for the top thing but what are some things that we can actually convict him on in order to hold the defendant responsible? And I think that's a big part of what the prosecution is trying to do in this situation, is ultimately not walk away with nothing. And so they're trying to put more charges in front of the jury in hopes that they'll consider more and potentially compromise and be able to come away with a conviction for Kyle Rittenhouse.

HILL: In terms of the defense and what we will hear in their closing arguments, a lot was made of how effective Kyle Rittenhouse was himself as a witness, in his testimony, talking about why he was acting in self-defense. What do you expect we'll hear from the defense?

COLEMAN: Well, I think you're going to hear a lot about how Kyle Rittenhouse went through the entire evening and went through a number of different situations, not necessarily trying to get in trouble with folks, not necessarily looking to bother folks. A number of times where he had run-ins during the evening that could have resulted in different types of altercations, but he avoided them or he basically did not draw his weapon during those and it wasn't until he got into these confrontations with the two deceased victims and the one injured that he ultimately did decided to fire his firearm.

So I think they're going to be using that in a huge, huge way to try to establish the fact that in their minds Kyle Rittenhouse, in fact, was not looking for the type of trouble that the prosecution is going to insist that he was looking for, but that he was trying to be a good Samaritan or a good citizen basically by coming in and trying to protect businesses and stop fires and things of that nature. So I think that's going to be a huge part of the narrative, basically looking at the totality of the evening and trying to explain or express that there were a number of different scenarios under which Kyle Rittenhouse could have used his firearm if the narrative of the prosecution held through.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

COLEMAN: But that did not happen. And so that is even more reason why the jury should defend what -- I'm sorry, should -- why the jury should believe what the defense is saying.

SCIUTTO: OK, we'll be watching closely. Charles F. Coleman, thank you.

And as we said, we will bring you the start of those closing arguments when they begin at the top of this hour.

You're looking at live pictures now. Another story we're following this morning, this is the home of former Trump Senior Adviser Steve Bannon. Sources tell CNN that Bannon is expected to turn himself in to authorities this morning. He would then likely make his first court appearance this afternoon.

HILL: Bannon is charged with two counts of contempt of Congress after ignoring a subpoena from the January 6th select committee.

CNN law enforcement correspondent Whitney Wild is live outside the district court of Washington. And it's, at this point, a bit of a waiting game. Once things start moving, though, this morning, what can we expect, Whitney?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think what we'll see later this afternoon is that Steve Bannon will likely show up to court for his first of what will probably be many court appearances. This is going to be a lengthy process here. This is just the beginning. But it could culminate if convicted with 30 days in jail, a thousand dollar fine, up to a year in jail at the maximum. It's a Class A misdemeanor.

But the real significance here is -- well, they're -- I guess I should say that there are several significant elements here. The first is that this is more pressure on Steve Bannon to give the committee what it wants. They want documents. They want testimony. They think he was at the very center of this effort to overturn the election.

For example, they point out in the indictment that he was at this war room we've been talking about.

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So this was the war room at the Willard Hotel on January 5th, the night before the riot. The same day on his podcast he said, tomorrow all hell is going to break loose. So they want to know who he was talking to, what his intentions were with those words and what they expected was going to happen on January 6th, when we know that rally preceded this insurrection. So they want to know basically everything he knows, all of his conversations that he had with people surrounding Trump, as well as the then president himself.

Steve Bannon has been a long-time adviser to the president, a confident of him. So he is, in some ways, a Trump whisperer here. So the committee can use him as a vehicle to get to what they also want to know, which is, what was the president's intention and what was his mindset on the day of the riot. That's the first thing.

More broadly, this is a warning shot to other people who are blowing off the subpoenas because the question has always been, is this the real deal? Does the House Select Committee actually have the power to hold people in criminal contempt? This Department of Justice says, yes, they do. So that is the warning shot for anybody else planning to blow off these subpoenas.

Back to you.

SCIUTTO: Whitney Wild watching that door right there very closely to see if and when Bannon turns himself in.

Thanks very much.

Let's now speak to Renato Mariotti. He's a former federal prosecutor, host of the "On Topic" podcast.

Renato, good to have you here.

So Bannon has now been charged, indicted rather. The last conviction for contempt of Congress was 1977. What is the likelihood that he's convicted here based on reading the tea leaves, the judge, et cetera?

RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, I think it's certainly possible given that Bannon took such a ham-handed approach to this subpoena. I mean he did not even have his attorney respond until after the subpoena was due and he was supposed to appear. He didn't really assert any sort of valid privilege or make any plausible claim. So, certainly, he made the DOJ's job as easy as possible.

But as you point out, Jim, the reason that there hasn't been a conviction since 1977 is this is a difficult type of case to prosecute. And, unfortunately, for the congressional Democrats, I do think that Bannon still has some potential defenses to assert here, like an advice of counsel defense.

HILL: An advice of counsel defense, meaning he could say, well, this is what his attorney told him to do.

It's interesting, though, because you write in an opinion piece over the weekend, you think he practically goaded the Justice Department to prosecute him because, as you pointed out, right, they didn't engage, they ignored requests for specific documents that they wanted to be a little bit more clear in why they were not speaking, meaning Bannon, his attorney.

I mean was it practically goading or do you think this was maybe part of the plan all along? This is sort of badge of honor for Steve Bannon.

MARIOTTI: I do think that Steve Bannon may be trying to prove his loyalty to Donald Trump. They had a falling out. He got back into Trump's good graces and Trump, I think, likes people who are thumbing their nose at congressional Democrats. So it wouldn't surprise me if Bannon is pleased with this.

He's also someone who's not afraid of being prosecuted. Most of us don't want to be indicted by the Justice Department, but Mr. Bannon has found a way to be indicted twice by the DOJ. That actually takes quite a bit of doing on his part.

So I think it's certainly possible he wanted this to happen. And now that he's been indicted, I -- you know, he now has just, I think this morning it broke that he hired a new attorney, I'd expect him to hire -- to call the old attorney as a witness and waive attorney/client privilege and say that he was just following that guy's advice.

SCIUTTO: So, Adam Schiff, congressman, he -- Congressman Adam Schiff says that he thinks that the DOJ's decision to indict here has an impact -- to prosecute, rather, and the grand jury to indite is having an impact on other witnesses.

Do you see the same, because, as you say, not everybody, you know, relishes the idea of being indicted by the Justice Department. Perhaps Mark Meadows and others feel pressure here. Is that what you see happening?

MARIOTTI: I think that it will have an impact. There's no question that if I represented any of these people, I'm sure the first thing they'd be asking me is, what are the chances that I'm going to be indicted, too? I don't think Mark Meadows wants to be indicted.

That said, they are pursuing much more sophisticated strategies and we have seen Mark Meadows' attorney wrote an op-ed over the weekend for "The Washington Post" He's been speaking publicly, talking about his negotiations and what could be a reasonable compromise. It's all about appearing reasonable and taking, you know, showing that you're taking the subpoena seriously to make it so that it will be harder for DOJ to prosecuting and inducing DOJ to take a pass on him, which I think they will do.

HILL: Renato Mariotti, good to have you here this morning. Thank you.

MARIOTTI: Thank you.

HILL: Still ahead, President Biden set to sign that hard-fought bipartisan infrastructure bill today. He's also selected a point person to oversee the trillion-dollar investment. We're live at the White House.

SCIUTTO: Plus, sad news, the nine-year-old boy critically injured at the Astroworld Festival has now died, and the family of another victim speaking to CNN this morning.

[09:15:09]

Also ahead, a terrorist incident at a British hospital may have been thwarted by a heroic taxi driver. We just got dramatic surveillance video of that deadly explosion. We'll have it coming up.

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HILL: After months and months of tense negotiations, President Biden will finally sign that $1.2 trillion bipartisan infrastructure bill into law today.

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The legislation includes, you can see some of what it will do there, $550 billion to repair and replace roads, bridges and ports. $65 billion to improve the nation's broadband infrastructure and more than $7 billion to build a network of electric car chargers.

SCIUTTO: Yes, there's a lot of money there in so many categories, many of which do need improvement and repair.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond joins us now from the White House.

Jeremy, this, of course, was bipartisan, both in the Senate and in the House. Are we going to see a bipartisan showing at the signing today?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we certainly will. And, of course, that is a rarity today in Washington. But you will see it today, some Republicans, including those Senate Republicans who helped pass this legislation are expected to attend, including Senators Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, Bill Cassidy and Rob Portman.

You will not see every single one of the 32 Republican lawmakers in the Senate and the House who helped pass this legislation attending. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, for example, is not expected to attend. You're also going to see a bipartisan showing at the state and local level as well with governors and mayors of major American cities expected to attend to show just how popular this piece of legislation is.

And, indeed, that is the aim of this signing ceremony that you're going to be seeing today on the South Lawn of the White House. President Biden, at a moment where he has faced sagging poll numbers, these concerns -- economic concerns in particular over inflation and rising gas prices, he is looking for a win, a political boost here, and that is exactly what the White House is aiming to do with this as they look to highlight what is undoubtedly the central legislative accomplishment of Joe Biden's presidency thus far.

And, of course, we have heard officials talk about the fact that these infrastructure investments will indeed help, at least in the medium and long-term with some of these supply chain concerns to make it more efficient to move goods around the United States.

Of course, the White House still looking for its next legislative wins with that social spending and climate investment portion. That, of course, still on the docket here for the White House to accomplish.

HILL: Jeremy Diamond with the latest this morning, thank you.

Well, right now, the White House is coming to the defense of Vice President Kamala Harris. Press secretary Jen Psaki tweeting, the VP is not only a vital partner to President Biden, but a bold leader who's taken on key important challenges facing the country, from voting rights to addressing root causes of immigration to expanding broadband.

SCIUTTO: There is the tweet there. This follows new CNN reporting that suggests there is some tension building between the West Wing and the Harris team.

CNN's senior reporter Edward-Isaac Dovere joins us now with more on his exclusive reporting.

Edward, I wonder what the source is here. I mean are you saying that the vice president's team is disappointed with the roles they've been afforded by the West Wing?

EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: That's part of it. There's also part of it that is folks -- some folks in the West Wing who are looking at this first year of Harris as vice presidency and pretty much throwing their arms up as they think about the dysfunction that has continued to plague it, a lack of focus that they see in that office. And then also all of this is wrapped up in the concerns that people have, many of them Harris loyalists, people who really want good things for the vice president and for her political future, saying, they don't think that enough is being done to position her well should she be president or running for president anytime soon.

HILL: I noticed two really interesting threads in your reporting here. There is that -- you know, that concern and that pushback that she's not being adequately prepared or positioned. There's also some frustration from people who have worked closely with her over the years that they are not getting the access they used to have, that -- that things are, you know, tough to come by when it comes to communications with Harris' office. How much are those two feeding on one another?

DOVERE: Well, they're feeding on each other quite a bit. But, look, on the first part of it, one of the people that we spoke to is a woman named Eleni Kounalakis, who's the lieutenant governor of California, a long-time friend and supporter of Kamala Harris, who said to me that she looks at this and she says, look, Kamala Harris is honored to be vice president. She's very proud to do the work that she's doing. But for these people like Kounalakis, who feel like she could be doing more, they look at what the White House and what the president has assigned her to do and think she's able to do more than she's being given. And that, she says, is where the frustration is coming from.

On the other hand, you have Donna Brazile, another long-time friend or supporter of Kamala Harris, a Democratic operative for many years, who said to me that she looks at this and she says, you need to have consistent, clear and concise message coming out of the vice president. She wants more of that being done. The vice president to be out more. Said, leave Air Force Two gassed up all the time. Let her out, is the way she summed it up to me. That is a feeling that is about what's going on, not only in how the vice president is being treated by the assignments she's getting out of the White House, but also how things are running within her own shop.

SCIUTTO: Can I ask a question here? Is this looking forward as soon as 2024?

[09:25:04]

I mean is that some of the messaging being -- back there as a potential plan b for the Democratic Party in 2024, or is that not even publicly or privately articulated at this point?

DOVERE: Well, look, what we know is, of course the vice president is the heartbeat away from the presidency at any time. But when you look at 2024, Joe Biden had said he's running for re-election. He will be 82 years old and who his running mate will be, what his vice president is like, how that vice president is viewed will be an essential validator, if he's running for re-election.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DOVERE: If he's not running for re-election, for whatever reason, he doesn't follow through on how he said it's going to be, then, yes, she'll be running for president and that campaign would be underway in a year, 18 months at the most.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes. Some great reporting. Edward-Isaac Dovere, thanks so much.

DOVERE: Thank you.

HILL: Just in to CNN, dramatic, new video --

SCIUTTO: Ooh.

HILL: Look at that there. This is of a deadly explosion outside a U.K. women's hospital. So the surveillance footage shows that black taxi, as you just saw there, pulling up to the hospital in Liverpool yesterday morning moments before an explosion occurs. Police are calling this a terrorist incident.

SCIUTTO: They say, police do, that the passenger got into the taxi with the device, asked to be taken to the hospital. That passenger died in the blast. But the driver managed to escape, thankfully, with non-life-threatening injuries.

The mayor of Liverpool says the taxi driver should be credited for his actions. Police have not yet identified a motive for the attack.

Goodness, just alarming, alarming pictures there.

Still ahead this hour, heartbreaking news overnight of the tenth person to die from injuries sustained during the Astroworld concert. This victim was just a child, just nine years old.

HILL: And we are moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Futures slightly higher this Monday morning. Nothing major, though. Stocks did finish higher on Friday, but ended the week lower overall. Those concerns about inflation continue to weigh on investors.

This week, the focus shifts to how the consumer is doing. October retail sales data due Tuesday. We do expect some big corporate earnings as well later in the week.

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