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Prosecutor Cross-Examines Man Who Shot Ahmaud Arbery. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired November 18, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TRAVIS MCMICHAEL, FATALLY SHOT AHMAUD ARBERY AFTER CHASE: -- he was pointing down the road.

[10:00:01]

I took it as, whatever happened, you need to go that way. You need to go that way. Something has happened. And then I tried to ask just to what was happening, what happened.

LINDA DUNIKOSKI, LEAD PROSECUTOR: And something had happened?

MCMICHAEL: Something has happened.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. So, at this point, right here, where he's running, you're still running at him, stop, I want to talk to you, stop?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: No, ma'am. Once I watched him run and pull alongside him again is when I engaged with him again.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. So, we're talking about going all the way down the road (ph).

MCMICHAEL: No, ma'am. It was only another 100 feet from there, maybe, maybe 200 feet. There was a wooded -- it was a wooded area right where I spoke to him again.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. So, let's take a look at this, which we have the exhibit number, Judge, state's exhibit 300. It's worth looking at it here on the drawn-up board. It's going to state's exhibit 300. So, taking a look at the drawn-up board of state's exhibit 300 --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, sorry, yes. Can you take a look at it?

DUNIKOSKI: I'm going to go ahead and publish it up there so that we can go ahead to see it, but that's where (INAUDIBLE) coordinates.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay.

DUNIKOSKI: Are you able to see that on your screen?

MCMICHAEL: Yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: So, you have the Bryan house, you said you went down here to maybe a wooded area. Is it fair that that wooded area is right in here?

MCMICHAEL: Yes. It's right at the corner of that house or lot right there, the last open area.

DUNIKOSKI: Right here?

MCMICHAEL: No, ma'am, right there.

DUNIKOSKI: Here?

MCMICHAEL: Yes.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. And so you chase him down here, and at this point in time you cut him off?

MCMICHAEL: No, ma'am. I'm alongside him and asked him to stop, I want to talk to him. And then after I said, I want to talk to you, hey, hold on a second, is when he finally stopped. And, okay, now we can talk, let's see what's going on. Then as soon as I said the cops are coming after he didn't respond to me -- or, you know, talk to me, I said, hey, the police are coming, stay right here, that's when he turned and ran the other direction.

DUNIKOSKI: You agree with me when I say that you never, ever told the Glynn County Police Department or in a written statement that you said to Mr. Arbery, the police are coming?

MCMICHAEL: I don't know if I did or not. If it's not on there, then I didn't say it. But I could have missed it from everything that was happening, write it down two hours later, I might have missed that on the assumption they knew that because I was still under the impression that my dad has called the police. So, I'm under the impression that the cops are coming.

DUNIKOSKI: So, talking about that, I'm going to have you take a look at page number nine again, that last paragraph. So, in your statement to Detective Nohilly, only a couple of hours after the homicide of Ahmaud Arbery, you basically say, he goes around the corner, comes back, he's -- you know, something is not right here. I tell him to stop, tell him to stop, grabbed the gun out of the truck. I say, hey, stop, stop, stop, he runs back, and this, we call -- you call 911 yet? Find my fine, call, give it to my dad, said call the cops, you know, let's get the cops. So, it was only after you grabbed your shotgun out of the truck at corner homes in Satilla that you say, hey, let's call the cops and you hand your phone to your dad to call the cops?

MCMICHAEL: That's when I found out that he did not call the police, when I realized that he had not called the police then.

[10:05:00]

DUNIKOSKI: So, also on page nine, you never indicated that Mr. Arbery actually stopped long enough for you to have a conversation with him. Is that correct, at the top of page nine?

MCMICHAEL: Yes, I do. I said, he's running, he won't stop. I said that's him, stop right there, stop where you're at. Call the cops, you know. And I'm assuming or what I'm saying there is I told him I called the cops. There he is. He starts acting funny, and then he takes off running. So, he was stopped. If he takes off running, then he was stopped at that point.

DUNIKOSKI: Do you remember yesterday telling this jury that's what you said to your dad, call the cops, you know, there he is? Do you remember telling this jury just yesterday that that was what you said to your dad, call the cops, there he is, he starts acting funny, he takes off running?

MCMICHAEL: I believe I said, have you called the cops yet? And then on this here is what I mentioned to the police in the interview, and reading this and knowing how all over the place when I was giving that statement, this is what I was talking about. It's what I believe I was talking about.

DUNIKOSKI: But to the degree, nowhere in here did you say that Mr. Arbery actually stopped? You said, stop right there, stop where you're at, and he takes off running?

MCMICHAEL: He takes off running.

DUNIKOSKI: So, nowhere in here do you indicate to the Detective Nohilly that he stopped long enough for you to say the police are on their way and that that's why he took off running. Nowhere in here, nowhere in your written statement is that indicated?

MCMICHAEL: In those terms, saying it in that verbatim, I did not. But looking at this and how I was still under stress, still under the impact of what happened a couple hours after this, just two hours, after the shooting, and seeing how I was talking, under stress, nervous, scared, I know what I was talking about here. And that's what I was talking about. Call the cops, you know, stop where you're at, call the cops.

I'm probably choppy trying to talk to him, being nervous and saying that I was saying this to Mr. Arbery, and then he takes off running. If you're running -- he continued running. He takes off running. I think that's what I was talking about there.

DUNIKOSKI: So, what were you nervous about while giving the statement?

MCMICHAEL: I just killed a man. I had blood on me still. It was the most traumatic event of my life. I was scared to death. I mean, it was the most traumatic event of my life. I don't know anybody who wouldn't be scared or stressed or terrified or anything. I mean, it was horrible.

DUNIKOSKI: I'm talking about giving your statement two hours later at a police station. You were nervous because you thought you were going to jail, right?

MCMICHAEL: No. I was -- I gave them a statement. I mean, if I would have -- DUNIKOSKI: You just killed somebody, you don't think you're going to jail? Is that what you're saying?

MCMICHAEL: I was going through an investigation. I was following the investigation.

DUNIKOSKI: So, you saw Officer Duggan's body cam, correct? Officer Duggan, the first officer you testified, his body cam?

MCMICHAEL: Yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: And you were standing right behind Officer Duggan all that went on, right?

MCMICHAEL: Yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: Okay. So, you've just shot Mr. Arbery three times with a shotgun, correct?

MCMICHAEL: Correct.

DUNIKOSKI: He's dead on the scene, correct?

MCMICHAEL: Correct.

DUNIKOSKI: He's unarmed, correct?

MCMICHAEL: He was.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. And your father came up to you and grabbed you by the shoulders and went, you had no choice, you had no choice, right? You saw that?

MCMICHAEL: Yes.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. You're covered in Mr. Arbery's blood. You go down to the police station, correct?

MCMICHAEL: Correct.

DUNIKOSKI: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you need a break?

DUNIKOSKI: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's keep going.

DUNIKOSKI: Okay. And at that point, you're in the safety of the police department giving your statement, correct?

MCMICHAEL: Yes.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. You got all the time in the world, correct?

MCMICHAEL: Yes. DUNIKOSKI: All right. And Detective Nohilly hasn't threatened you?

MCMICHAEL: No.

DUNIKOSKI: Hasn't forced you to make a statement?

MCMICHAEL: He did not.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. And didn't promise you anything in order to get you to make a statement?

[10:10:00]

MCMICHAEL: Let me look real quick. He did not.

DUNIKOSKI: Okay. But you're telling this jury that you're all confused and you can't get the facts straight as you're telling the police about why it was you shot and killed a man.

MCMICHAEL: I was trying with my best ability, but like I said, under the circumstances of going through a traumatic event, this was the most traumatic event that I have ever been through in my life. I don't know how -- I've never been through a situation like that, so the reaction, trying to go through and trying to be as factual and as detailed as I could, looking at the transcript being as scattered as it was, I could tell that obviously I failed attempting to try as best I could. This is what you got. I tried. And this is what happened.

DUNIKOSKI: So, fair to say you never told Detective Nohilly nor wrote down in your win statement that you told Mr. Arbery the police are on their way?

MCMICHAEL: It seems I attempted to say it in these words here.

DUNIKOSKI: And at that point, Mr. Arbery turns around and runs back down Burford to get away from you, correct?

MCMICHAEL: That's correct.

DUNIKOSKI: So, at this point in time, he's running away from you. He has not threatened you?

MCMICHAEL: No.

DUNIKOSKI: Hasn't pulled out a gun?

MCMICHAEL: No, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: Hasn't pulled out a knife?

MCMICHAEL: He did not.

DUNIKOSKI: Still arms at his sides?

MCMICHAEL: That's correct.

DUNIKOSKI: And he's trying to get away from you?

MCMICHAEL: And I was letting him run away, yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: You were letting him run away?

MCMICHAEL: That's correct.

DUNIKOSKI: Wasn't it your intention to go around the block and cut him off and find him over on the other side?

MCMICHAEL: To head him off and to see where he's located, that was my intention, yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. But you could have stopped right there and not done anything, right?

MCMICHAEL: Yes. But then immediately after is when I saw his interaction with the black truck and realized that there is something to my suspicions here, and I would like to see where he is at when the cops come, which I assumed that the police were on the way, that I would be able to tell them where he's at if they hadn't located him at that point.

DUNIKOSKI: So, you're telling this jury that your whole intention was just to go ahead and follow Mr. Arbery, keep an eye on him, and to just tell the cops there he is?

MCMICHAEL: At that point, yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: Now, it's true that your father, while in the truck with you, going down Burford towards that end was yelling at you, cut him off, cut him off, cut him off, right?

MCMICHAEL: He was talking to me. I don't know if he was saying, cut him off or not. I know that he was saying, there he is, that 's the guy. After that, I am not sure exactly what he said.

DUNIKOSKI: And at this point, you're still yelling at Mr. Arbery to stop at the end of the Burford?

MCMICHAEL: I was not yelling at him on Burford, no, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: And at the end of Burford, you and your dad both got out of the pickup truck, correct?

MCMICHAEL: When he turned and started running down Burford when he was away, when he was not a threat, if he wanted to be a threat and he was going past that, I got out of the truck, yes, ma'am. But he turned and ran, running away is when I got out of the vehicle.

DUNIKOSKI: Why in the world would Mr. Arbery be a threat to you?

MCMICHAEL: Because of -- when I was asking -- when I asked him what was going on and recognized that it was the guy that I saw on the 11th and Mr. Albensi (ph) pointing, everything going down and realized I didn't see him and then how he reacted when I shined the lights on him on the 11th, he acted like he did not want to be -- he was obviously caught sneaking through the front yard.

He was obviously where he was supposed to be, where he had been had been several times, and then he reaches into his pants and he has a gun, and I took that as a threatening gesture in the house. Now, it's the same guy on the 23rd that I just pulled up to that it turned out my father was correct, people pointing down the road, seeing that this happened 12 days prior.

But, yes, there was a possibility that he may be armed with that gesture, but he didn't show me that and he started running down the road. I was no longer -- I was no longer under a threat, if there was to be one, so I got out of the vehicle after my father got out of the vehicle, to see what was going on, to watch him.

[10:15:09]

DUNIKOSKI: So, when you first pulled up to him the very first time, you confirmed it was him, right?

MCMICHAEL: Yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. You testified under oath to this jury that I'm not going to chase or investigate someone who is armed, right?

MCMICHAEL: That's correct.

DUNIKOSKI: And yet you want this jury to believe now that he was a threat to you, okay, that you perceived him as a threat, yet you continued to chase him down in Burford?

MCMICHAEL: I didn't know if he was threat or not. He never reached in his pockets, and I wanted to see what was happening. I figured I could talk to him at this point, or getting up to him a second point.

DUNIKOSKI: But heading at this point, he demonstrated not once, not twice but three times he did not want to talk to you?

MCMICHAEL: Which when I'm at the stop, I want to stop (INAUDIBLE).

DUNIKOSKI: Right. Because you pulled up to him once, he doesn't want to talk to you. You back up. He doesn't want to talk to you. You pulled down on Burford, your dad was yelling, cut him off, cut him off. And all of a sudden he runs back, he doesn't want to talk to you. That's three times he's demonstrated to you that he does not want to talk to you, correct?

MCMICHAEL: Yes.

DUNIKOSKI: And he's also demonstrated he is no threat to you, hasn't pulled out a gun?

MCMICHAEL: That's correct.

DUNIKOSKI: He hasn't said one word to you?

MCMICHAEL: He has not. DUNIKOSKI: He's not threatened you verbally or physically?

MCMICHAEL: No, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: No knives?

MCMICHAEL: No knives.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. He's not swearing at you, using profanity or anything like that, is he?

MCMICHAEL: Didn't talk.

DUNIKOSKI: So at this point, you get out of the truck, correct?

MCMICHAEL: That's correct.

DUNIKOSKI: And you get out with your shotgun?

MCMICHAEL: No. I got out when my father got out, get in the back, and then my shotgun slipped and it was in the floorboard where my feet were all over it. Once I was out of the vehicle, I'm not going to reach out -- wouldn't grab it while Mr. Arbery was right there. There was no reason for it. He's running off. I'm on the side of the truck. So, at that point I grabbed the shotgun out of the floorboard and put it on the seat.

DUNIKOSKI: Your dad gets out with his .357 magnum, correct?

MCMICHAEL: I didn't know if he had it on him or not. I knew he had it but I didn't see it. He didn't have it in his hand.

DUNIKOSKI: So, he didn't have it in his hand as he ran about ten yards down the road after Mr. Arbery?

MCMICHAEL: He didn't run right after Mr. Arbery.

DUNIKOSKI: So, at this point, you see Mr. Bryan in his black GMC truck to try and run Mr. Arbery off the road?

MCMICHAEL: No, ma'am. I saw -- after I put the shotgun back on to the seat when it was on the floor board and then watching dad or talking to dad or trying to figure out what was going on, when I look back down the road, I didn't -- I don't know Mr. Bryan, didn't where he lived. I didn't see him when I had the first encounter with Mr. Arbery.

My assumption, I was assuming from what I saw that he came from Satilla. So, the vehicle was at what I thought at the very end of the road, more than likely seeing the video the other day, where the tree was closest to Burford. It was towards the end, where it's almost on the road. I'm certain that's where I saw the encounter with him.

And it didn't look like he was running him off the road. Actually, Mr. Arbery -- I thought the vehicle was stopping, Arbery went to the left side, and then to the right and went back to the left. It looked like he was engaging with that vehicle.

DUNIKOSKI: So, you're all the way down here -- I'll do it on this one -- all the way down here.

MCMICHAEL: Around there, yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: And there all the way down here by the time you look at them, is that what you're saying?

MCMICHAEL: By the time I noticed, yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: Okay. And you want this jury to believe that you thought Mr. Arbery was the one engaging in this black vehicle, not that the black vehicle was trying to hit him or run him off the road?

MCMICHAEL: Yes, ma'am.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to object, the form of the question. You want this jury to believe. I think that's an improper form of the question. I think she can ask him questions and he can answer. But to insinuate he has some motive for the jury to believe is improper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's cross-examination.

[10:20:00]

Go ahead.

DUNIKOSKI: Thank you. So, you want this jury to believe that it's Mr. Arbery who is the aggressor with the black truck, not that the black truck is the one trying to run him off the road to help you?

MCMICHAEL: I didn't see the truck trying to run him off the road. What I saw from down there, what I saw the vehicle looked to be at a stop and Mr. Arbery was engaging the vehicle.

DUNIKOSKI: And then Mr. Arbery was able to get away from the black vehicle?

MCMICHAEL: He ran past the vehicle.

DUNIKOSKI: And your dad wanted to go down there to see what was happening, right?

MCMICHAEL: That's correct.

DUNIKOSKI: But you wanted to go around to cut him off?

MCMICHAEL: No, ma'am. I wanted to get around and see where he was at, not to cut him off. Not the way you're saying cut him off, no. I wanted to see where he's at, to be in that same area to let the police know where he was coming.

DUNIKOSKI: I'll have you take a look at page 24, middle of the page. I'm sorry. Back up to page 23, please. Take a look at page 23. So, line 16. So, he turned and went back down this road. Dad's like, hey, go down there. I said I'm not going through there. I'm not going back to him. This is the time that the black truck that was at the scene, that's when he tried to stop it?

MCMICHAEL: Yes.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. So, here, you're telling the police the black truck at the scene was trying to stop Mr. Arbery?

MCMICHAEL: That's what I believe, yes.

DUNIKOSKI: Okay. And that was right here in this corner, just on Burford, probably a house past this intersection, so I turned and went this way.

MCMICHAEL: Correct.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. And then came down, came around, came down Holmes Drive. He was right there. I said, good, we'll probably -- we'll have a chance to stop him now, correct?

MCMICHAEL: Yes.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. And then the black truck is right there. I was over here. Hey, stop, stop. Well, he's running up the road, and I seen him coming. Do you remember that?

MCMICHAEL: Yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. So you came around Holmes and you were a few houses down when you encountered Mr. Arbery and yelled at him once again, stop, stop, is that right?

MCMICHAEL: I think I had it wrong on here. Like I said, once I was bouncing back and forth, trying to explain everything that happened, that I misspoke on there. I don't know where I would say to stop, stop. Where was it that I said stop? Came down, came around, came down Holmes Drive. He was right there. I said, good, we'll probably -- we'll have a chance to stop him now. The black truck is right there. I was over here. Hey, stop, stop. While he was run down the road, I seen him coming. So, yes, that was at the end of Holmes around that side of the (INAUDIBLE).

DUNIKOSKI: Right. Do you notice how it says -- Investigator Nohilly write after it, says, which way is he running? And you said, he's coming up this way, and where are you at at this time? I came around and turned off this road. I'm not really sure how far I was. I was a few houses down. So you're a few houses down, he's asking you specifically, when did you say, hey, stop, stop? I was a few houses down, correct?

MCMICHAEL: Yes, on here, that's correct.

DUNIKOSKI: Okay. And you also got out of your truck at that time, a few houses down on Holmes Drive, correct?

MCMICHAEL: On here is what I said, but I don't believe that's what happened. I don't believe -- I believe I misspoke or had it wrong or had it mixed up to when I stopped at the end of Holmes.

DUNIKOSKI: Okay. But you also wrote it down in your written statement. Take a look at your written statement. That's about two- thirds of the way down.

MCMICHAEL: On page?

DUNIKOSKI: Two. So, I decided to continue down Burford towards Zellwood then take onto Holmes to see if he would be there. Is that right?

[10:25:00]

Do you see that line?

MCMICHAEL: Yes.

DUNIKOSKI: Okay. And then it says, then you wrote, I made it halfway down and seen the individual turn and run back the way he came, then turned back toward me when the black GMC Chevy turned onto the road.

MCMICHAEL: That's correct. That was at the end of Satilla.

DUNIKOSKI: Well, you said, I got out of my truck and told him to stop, which he didn't. I got back into my truck and stopped just short of the stop sign on Holmes facing Satilla. So, you had actually stopped, got out of your truck, told him to stop, which he didn't, then got back in your truck, then pulled down to Satilla and Holmes?

MCMICHAEL: That -- looking back after everything had cooled off, where I stopped -- and I don't recall if I got out or not. I think I had this mixed with the -- when I finally pulled up. Both times where is I said I stopped and got out, I was saying when I stopped and saw Mr. Arbery and the black truck coming at me. We're on Holmes, just short of where the shooting occurred. I probably yelled stop at him, but then once they passed me is when I pulled up a couple more feet and decided to stay where I was at. That's what I was speaking about here.

DUNIKOSKI: Isn't it true that at this point in time when you're a few houses down Holmes, you stop, you get out, you yell then stop, stop, that's when your father yelled at him, stop or I'll blow your fucking head off?

MCMICHAEL: I don't think so. I don't know.

DUNIKOSKI: Well, you don't think so? I mean, you were standing right there. You heard your father say this, yes?

MCMICHAEL: I don't think I heard him say that.

DUNIKOSKI: But you know that's what he told the police he said.

MCMICHAEL: In the report is what I heard, yes, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: So, at this point, you're coming down Holmes and you see Mr. Arbery coming toward you?

MCMICHAEL: He was in the middle of a turn. He was turning from -- he was on the right side of the road turning left in that apex is when I saw him there, the first time I saw him on Holmes. He was in the middle of a turn, turning back towards Satilla on Holmes.

DUNIKOSKI: Is that what the video picks up?

MCMICHAEL: I don't think so. I don't know.

DUNIKOSKI: So, you're saying that you're coming down this way and he's running toward your truck he's turning around and he runs back this way. You don't see the black truck at this point?

MCMICHAEL: No, ma'am.

DUNIKOSKI: All right. But then all of a sudden he's running back toward you and you see the black truck behind him?

MCMICHAEL: No. When I came around the dogleg, the black truck and Mr. Arbery were together. The black truck obviously just came off Satilla and were heading towards me on Holmes towards the Zellwood.

DUNIKOSKI: So, you're saying at this point, you made it all the way down here?

MCMICHAEL: He was turning -- he was on the right side of the road turning left. When I saw him, he amid of the turn and then he turned and was out of sight around that dogleg and I continued. And then once I got to the dogleg is when I saw him and Mr. -- or the black vehicle coming my way.

DUNIKOSKI: And at that point, he's pinned between the two vehicles?

MCMICHAEL: He was.

DUNIKOSKI: You get down to the end of here, having passed Mr. Arbery and the black truck?

MCMICHAEL: No. I'm sorry at a stop and they passed me. I let Mr. Arbery run by, and I let the vehicle pass me. I was stopped in the correct lane and saw them coming. And that was when Mr. Arbery and the black truck -- or Mr. Arbery was running alongside the truck grabbing at the mirror and the door, and then that's when they split when they were coming into my lane. That's when they split, Mr. Arbery on the passenger side and the black vehicle turned and went back into his lane and then was following Mr. Arbery as they went around that dogleg.

DUNIKOSKI: In order for you to get from here to here with them behind you, you had to have passed Mr. Arbery and the black pickup truck, correct?

MCMICHAEL: That's when they passed -- that's when they passed me, was back there, was towards Satilla. Yes, ma'am.

[10:30:00]