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Jury Deliberates Fate Of Three Men Charged With Killing Ahmaud Arbery; Eight-Year-Old Boy Dies, The Sixth Death In Christmas Parade Crash; Weekly Jobless Claims Now Lower Than Before The Pandemic. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired November 24, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A good Wednesday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica hill.

The jury deliberating for a second day in the trial of three men accused of killing Ahmaud Arbery. Travis McMichael, his father, Greg McMichael, and neighbor William Roddie Bryan, all facing life in prison if convicted on the most serious charges, malice murder and felony murder. The jury just requested to review and just reviewed three -- just wanted to see a piece of video evidence and also a 911 call. They wanted to watch that video three times. They've just completed that.

This as we have learned that Ahmaud Arbery's family in those same moments has just arrived at the courthouse.

SCIUTTO: Yes, a shocking moment in that courtroom there to see video repeatedly of the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery.

Let's begin in Brunswick, Georgia. CNN's Senior National Correspondent Sara Sidner, she is outside the courthouse.

What did you hear -- what are you hearing from others perhaps who are trying to judge the significance of this moment here with the jury requesting this particular evidence?

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The one thing that you can say when you have a jury that is asking for evidence is that they are doing their job. They are trying to go over the evidence. They're trying to look through it and be conscientious. And these are, if you looked at that video, which I know is extremely difficult to watch, especially over and over again, but it is their job to try and determine what happened there.

And all perceptions aside, you have the video, you can go over the video and you can discuss all of the evidence, including the video. And, obviously, this video of the incident itself, of the killing of Ahmaud Arbery, is pivotal in this case. And they also wanted to hear that 911 call. What did Greg McMichael, the father of Travis McMichael, who ended up shooting and killing Ahmaud Arbery, what did he say to police? Did he say something like, we're trying to make a citizen's arrest, this person has -- we've seen him do X, Y, Z.

The prosecution has been very pointed, if you will, on the law, on what a citizen's arrest is. And part of that law says that you have either had to see the crime as it was being committed, so that you know who to go after, or that somebody was fleeing from a crime and you were able to see someone do a felony and then you chase after that person.

They had not seen him commit any crime, the prosecution has said over and over in front of this jury, but the defense has said that once this all happened, once the gun came into play, once there was a fight over this gun, that the defendant, Travis McMichael, was simply defending himself, afraid that Ahmaud Arbery was going to take his shotgun and use it against him.

And so that's where we are right now. The jury has to decide between those two ideas, and we are just waiting for their decision. Jim?

HILL: Absolutely. Sara Sidner with the latest for us there in Brunswick, Sara, thank you.

Also with us this hour, White Collar Criminal Defense Attorney Sara Azari and Criminal Defense Attorney and former Prosecutor Bernarda Villalona. Good to have both of you with us.

Bernarda, I want to start with you here, the video, which we just saw, disturbing video, which is why we only showed it to you once. We're not going to play it again, as Jim pointed out, but that was the moment that Ahmaud Arbery was shot and killed. And as you see him stumble at the end, the request to see that specific video -- they were asked if they wanted the video at half speed. The jury said, no, they wanted to see the original video, Bernarda, that moment is key here. Why?

BERNARDA VILLALONA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, that moment is definitely key here because actually you're seeing the death of Ahmaud Arbery. My question would be are they focusing on this video because they want to see what Travis McMichael was doing or what Greg McMichael was doing, or at what position was William Roddie Bryan. There are so many things that we can infer from this question but we'll learn more based on what is the follow-up note that the jury sent to the judge.

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SCIUTTO: Sara, I wonder how you view this. And, again, it's a difficult position to put you in, right, because you're trying to guess what's inside the mind of 12 jurors. But in your experience, when folks ask for evidence like this, and what you see in that evidence, because Page Pate made the point a few moments ago that some of the witnesses in the trial and expert witnesses said that the video, in their view, showed self-defense, right? I mean, you do have a possibility where two people look at the same video and come away with different conclusions.

SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Jim, you're asking me to read tea leaves. Good morning. Like Bernarda said, there could be so many possibilities because there are so many issues. But what we do know is that the jurors are paying attention, right? We saw this happen in Rittenhouse, where they asked to see the video frame by frame. Of course, this is a very different jury composition than in that case.

But the idea here is that they're potentially looking for self- defense. The defendant, Travis, testified that, for the first time, he added facts before the jury that Arbery was trying to grab his gun and Arbery struck him with the gun. These are all issues that the jury needs to decide.

But I think that the fact that they listened to the 911 call was really key here, because the idea is that, you know, Greg McMichael said -- they said what's the emergency, he said a black man is running down the street. I mean, that's what really this case is all about, right?

And I think the jurors were trying to listen to see whether there was any mention made of we're trying to effect a citizen's arrest. Because, remember, Jim, you can't get to self-defense, that analysis, unless you establish a valid citizen's arrest.

HILL: In terms of that citizen's arrest, this was the point -- a point of convention, as Jim pointed out earlier, between the prosecution and the defense specifically in their closing arguments and even yesterday in their rebuttal in terms of the way that the state was talking about the law in the rebuttal. The defense objecting multiple times on that as they ended up going back and forth with the judge on the actual language, how it was being presented.

Bernarda, not all of that was heard by the jury. Some of it was though. They could hear the objections. How does that tend to sit with the jury if they're hearing the attorneys from both sides squabble over that interpretation of the law?

VILLALONA: Yes. So, the jury is going to be forced to actually make their own interpretation based on the black letter law that the judge instructed them. Because, remember, what the judge said, that is the law that they have to follow. That is the law that they have to apply the facts to.

So, the question would be, because they know it's a crucial issue, especially since the defense was strategic and objected at the exact time when it was being defined and interpreted by the prosecutor. It may just boil down to that the jury may accept the interpretation on the attorney that they find the most credible, because in the end, when we're looking at this video, the video does not lie.

So, they're going to have to apply inferences, their common sense and just look at the totality of what took place to determine whether there was a citizen's arrest. I'm curious though why they asked to view this video, because if you find that there was no citizen's arrest, then you don't get to self-defense, because you can't avail Rail yourself with self-defense if you're committing a felony.

SCIUTTO: And, Sara Azari, specific to the question of self-defense, because this is the second we've heard, because on Rittenhouse, the same argument was made, someone brings a loaded weapon to an altercation or a situation and then says their fear that someone else is going to take the loaded weapon away from them and harm them is their argument for self-defense. I'm just curious how the law sees that.

AZARI: Right. And the law in Wisconsin and Georgia are very similar in that respect. If you are the first aggressor, if you have provoked the incident or you're committing felonies, which all these things fit here, then you don't get to claim self-defense. And here, we don't just have the loaded weapon. We also have two trucks, Jim. We have two trucks that were used to trap Arbery before he was shot and killed.

So, I found interesting, with respect to him being unarmed, how the prosecutor really highlighted his appearance. Much like the defense attorneys stooped really low and used Arbery's appearance to vilify him, the defense attorney got up and said, those baggy shorts that he was wearing actually showed the defendants that he was unarmed, he didn't have a weapon, he didn't even have a wallet or a cell phone, right?

So, I thought that was clever to really sort of nail down that he was unarmed. You're the one with the gun and you're claiming self-defense? Please.

SCIUTTO: Well, we'll keep watching. It's could we could do. A lot can happen in that jury room. Sara Azari, Bernarda Villalona, please stay with us.

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We'll be following developments and we are continuing to follow the trial this entire hour.

There are other stories we're following, including six people now dead after an SUV rammed into a crowded Christmas parade in Waukesha, Wisconsin. Here is the latest victim, just eight years old, Jackson Sparks. He died after undergoing brain surgery, spending days in the hospital fighting for his life. His brother, Tucker, is expected to be discharged from the hospital soon. He suffered a fractured skull.

HILL: The suspect, Darrell Brooks, now likely to face a sixth count of first degree intentional homicide following the death of Jackson Sparks. And he remains in jail on $5 million bail.

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KEVIN COSTELLO, WAUKESHA COUNTY COURT COMMISSIONER: It's extraordinarily high, but it's an extraordinarily big case. It's an extraordinarily serious case with an extraordinary history of this gentleman, of fleeing, of hurting people, of not following court orders.

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HILL: CNN's Adrienne Broaddus joining us now live from Waukesha. So, what more do we know about -- there's some new video, as I understand it, capturing the moments before his arrest, Adrienne.

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Erica, yes. Minutes before Brooks was arrested, he showed up at a resident's home, rang the doorbell and asked that person to use their cell phone to call an Uber, told this person he was homeless. So, the 24-year-old said he was inside his home watching Sunday football and he let Brooks in, and this is what happened.

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DANIEL RIDER, ENCOUNTERED WAUKESHA SUSPECT AFTER PARADE: He was pretty flustered. I gave him a jacket, made him a sandwich and then just kind of watched over to make sure everything was okay. And he said the Uber or the Lyft was going to be there in a few minutes. The next thing, five minutes goes by, I'm starting to get nervous.

The Uber he was calling with his mom on the phone, his mom had called him an Uber, showed up maybe a minute after he was in cuffs. So, I just think about sometimes if he had gotten in that car, what could have happened.

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BROADDUS: And as he thinks about what could have happened, many of you listening at home might be wondering, well, why did he invite this stranger into his home? Rider told us minutes before Brooks showed up, his family shared with him a pastor's sermon that called on the community and called on people to help the homeless. So, that's what he did. Keep in mind, Brooks, when he rang that doorbell and knocked on the door, told Rider he was homeless. So, Brooks experienced the kindness of a stranger.

We've also seen kindness on display at this tribute behind me. There are six crosses here in memory of the six people who died. Each cross holds a heart and people have been leaving messages on those hearts. One message in particular says, I love and miss you, mom. I will continue to keep you proud. Erica?

SCIUTTO: Yes, the sixth cross, just a little boy. Adrienne Broaddus, thanks so much.

Still to come this hour, a steady drop here, the latest jobs report showing a huge improvement for Americans workers. What it means for employers trying to make hires, coming up.

HILL: Also millions of Americans, you can be one of them, I know Jim is, getting ready to travel to gather for the holidays as COVID cases are climbing in the northern and eastern parts of the United States. So, what can you do to stay safe? We have a few tips.

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SCIUTTO: New this morning, the number of weekly jobless claims has fallen below pre-pandemic levels for the first time last week, in fact, the number, remarkably, the lowest since 1969.

HILL: 52 years. This, as we should soon, hopefully -- there's some hope, anyway, the gas prices will begin to drop. How realistic is that hope?

CNN Business Reporter Matt Egan following all of it for us. So, let's start though, Mark -- Matt -- I do know your name, Matt, I swear -- with last week's jobless claims. So this -- 199,000, when adjusted for seasonal swings, that feels like it would be really good news for the economy. Is it?

MATT EGAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: Well, Erica and Jim, absolutely. This is definitely more evidence of how the U.S. economy is entering the holiday season with serious momentum. 199,000 for the jobless claims, that is not only the lowest number of the entire pandemic, that is the lowest since 1969 when Richard Nixon was in the White House. Also, some more context, during the height of COVID, that figure stood at 6 million. And for months, it was at very high levels.

There's a lot of other signs right now that the economy is actually doing pretty well. First off, we've got to look at the fact that the unemployment rate is off 4.6 percent. That's down from nearly 15 percent from the height of COVID. People are shopping, retail sales surging at the fastest pace since March when stimulus checks were handed out. And Americans are quitting their jobs at record pace because they feel so confident in their ability to get better jobs.

And yet consumer sentiment is at a ten-year low. Americans give the economy very poor marks in polling, and that's because of inflation and high gas prices. That is causing anxiety for millions of Americans. And it's really overshadowing a lot of these other positives.

I think that we really need to pay more attention to what Americans are doing, rather than what they're saying. That means paying attention to how much they're shopping and what they're doing in terms of quitting their jobs.

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Because, big picture, I do think that Americans are saying they hate the economy but they're kind of acting like they love it.

SCIUTTO: Yes, they're spending a lot of money. That's a big test.

Okay, gas prices, folks are focused on this. A lot of them are going to filling up today and tomorrow. National price $3.40. Those 50 million barrels from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, that's just about 2.5 days consumption in the U.S. but you have it happening globally. What are forecasters saying about if and when we might see those prices go down?

EGAN: Well, first, some context on where we are. This $3.40 a gallon price, that is the highest for thanksgiving since 2012. That's according to a new government report out just now. And you can see how that has played out. That's up 62 percent from the same point last year when many people were staying home because of COVID. Also, it's 32 percent higher than the same point in 2019.

Now, the good news is, yes, there is some help on the way. President Biden announcing that 50-million-barrel release from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, that is the biggest release in U.S. history. China, Japan, India, other countries are apparently joining in on this. And so just the rumor of this international intervention has already lowered oil prices, and that, in turn, has put a lid on gas prices.

We see the national average is actually down by a penny from a week ago. The bad news is that none of the experts I'm talking to are expecting a dramatic increase in prices. That's because the president has limited power here. In many ways, this feels more like a band-aid than a game-changer. So, big picture, this is good news that the president is taking action, but I don't really think it's going to live up to the hype, ultimately.

SCIUTTO: Oil market is global, right, a big factor here. Matt Egan, thanks very much.

EGAN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Joining us now to talk about all the politics, Ron Brownstein, CNN Senior Political Analyst and Senior Editor at The Atlantic, also Rachael Bade, CNN Political Analyst, co-Author of Politico's Playbook. Good to have you both on.

Ron Brownstein, explain the disconnect here, right? Because based on unemployment, based on the size of people's checking accounts, based on jobless claims, right, based on economic growth, as predicted for the third and fourth quarter, I mean, it's a very strong economy. People feel it in inflation. Things are more expensive, no question. Is this an administration messaging problem here? What explains the disconnect and what can Biden do about it?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: No, I don't think it's messaging. Look, I think the answer is pretty straightforward. Inflation is the political equivalent of an invasive plant species. We haven't had a lot of bouts of inflation in the U.S., but when we have, they tend to submerge everything else.

There's a poll out today from NPR/PBS/Marist. 48 percent of Americans pick inflation as the biggest problem facing the economy, far more than anything else. There are -- As Matt noted, there are a lot of positives behind that. And the question is, most economists still believe that we are dealing with a shift in how Americans spend their money, away from services, post-COVID, towards goods.

That is the core of the problem, driving up the problem -- driving up the prices of durable goods, plus energy. And most economists still believe this will abate sometime in the coming year. Now, it's not clear whether that's going to happen fast enough to save Democrats in 2022, but if this recedes and all of those other positives come forward, plus the agenda that Biden is on the brink of passing that would also juice growth in the years ahead, the picture could look very different down the road. But right now, it's inflation.

HILL: Right now, it's inflation. But to that point, I wonder if there is maybe an element though of messaging here, Rachael. Because when it comes to messaging on inflation, Republicans are running with it, right? This is a gift for them. It's great for them heading into an election year.

But the White House really hasn't figured out what that message is in terms of how they're doing things. Even this move with the strategic reserves, it's great but that's really -- as Jim pointed out, this is 2.5 days' worth of gas. That's a political move.

RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I mean, it's a drop in the bucket. And going out there saying they're going to be sort of juicing the economy by putting out these oil reserves could actually raise hopes for people, and then when they see it, it doesn't really impact anything, that could also sort of almost blow back on Democrats.

So, Democrats' fundamental problem here is that their core agenda right now is focused on the middle class, in terms of making people's lives easier, low and middle-income Americans. But they're addressing the wrong issue right now. Americans, time and time again, poll after poll, say they want something to be done about inflation.

And these bills that they're passing right now, yes, long-term, they're going to help the middle class, but they're not going to do anything in terms of these higher gas prices right now. They're not going to help at the pump. They're not going to help when it comes to the supply chain issues. People, can they find enough Christmas presents for their kids? Can they even afford Christmas presents for their kids?

And so that's the fundamental problems Democrats face right now. Americans want them to be talking about inflation and doing more about inflation. There's not a lot they can do. And that's just the reality of the situation and it's going to blow back politically.

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SCIUTTO: Ron Brownstein, I'm going to throw two difficult questions for you, and you don't have much time to answer them. Is Biden running in 2024 and is Trump running in 2024?

BROWNSTEIN: I think Biden is running in 2024 if conditions have improved. I think if you're in a more neutral environment, I think there will be enormous pressure on him to run from the Democratic Party because they see Trump as such an existential threat for the future of democracy.

And, Trump, I don't think we know. I think it was guaranteed from the day of the election that he would leave the impression that he is running up until the last moment because it maximizes his influence in the party, but we will see. He's reluctant to let anybody else replace him in the shadow -- replace him in the sun, but he is also, I think, very reluctant to take on a race if he's not confident he's going to win.

HILL: Rachael, how much are those two questions handicapping Democrats right now?

BADE: I mean, the question about Biden has set off a behind the scenes jockeying, where there's a lot of talk right now about Pete Buttigieg, is he going to run, and obviously Kamala Harris potentially being the mantle, taking the mantle. Can she have it? Can she win? And so, yes, I think those questions will continue to sort of plague Democrats as Republicans surge right now in the polls.

And I'm skeptical Biden will run again personally but we'll have to see. And 2024 is a long way away.

HILL: Indeed it is. The good news is, though, Thanksgiving is just hours away. I hope that's good news for both of you. I hope you both have a very happy holiday. Grateful for you, always. Thanks, guys.

Still ahead, long lines at the airport as holiday travel nears pre- pandemic levels. We're watching that, a rise in travelers along with a rise in COVID cases in some areas of the U.S. There are things you can do though to keep this a safe holiday. We'll go through those, ahead.

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