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Jens Stoltenberg is Interviewed about Russia and Ukraine; Trump Tested Positive Days Before Debate; House GOP Fracturing in Real Time. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired December 01, 2021 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[09:33:26]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Secretary of State Antony Blinken, after a meeting with top diplomats, said this morning that it is unclear yet whether president -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has decided to invade Ukraine, but said that he does have in place the capacity to do so, on short order, should he decide.
Growing tensions between Russia and Ukraine.
Joining me now to discuss, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg.
Secretary General, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.
JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Thank you so much for having me.
SCIUTTO: So you heard Secretary of State Blinken's words there that Russia has the capacity to not only invade Ukraine militarily, but also destabilize it from within. Do you believe that Russia plans to use that capacity?
STOLTENBERG: There's no clarity about intentions by the Russian military buildup. But what we do know is that over the last weeks, Russia has increased the number of troops along the borders with Ukraine, and this is an unusual concentration of military force. And we also know that Russia has demonstrated the will to use force against Ukraine before, because it did that in 2014 when they invaded Crimea and they annexed a part of Ukraine. And we also see a heightened aggressive rhetoric by Russia against Ukraine. So, we need to be prepared for the worst, even though we hope for the best.
SCIUTTO: You have told reporters in recent days that NATO must, quote, send a clear signal to Russia about its military activity.
[09:35:06]
You have also said that there would be serious political and economic consequences were Russia to invade.
What are those consequences? What would NATO do if Russia crosses the border? STOLTENBERG: So, first of all, we call on Russia to not use military
force against Ukraine once again. We call on them to be transparent, to de-escalate, and to reduce tensions. If they decide, despite that, to once again use military force, invade Ukraine, then there will be a high price to pay for Russia.
We have wide range of options, economic sanctions, financial sanctions, political restrictions and also after the last time, NATO actually implemented the biggest enforcement of our collective defense since the end of the Cold war with combat (INAUDIBLE) groups in the eastern part of the islands, in the Baltic countries, and that's where we are now. But also in the Black Sea region and all these options are on the table.
SCIUTTO: Are you saying that a military response to a Russian invasion is on the table?
STOLTENBERG: I think it's important to distinguish between Ukraine, Ukraine is a partner, we provide support, training, capacity building, (INAUDIBLE), some equipment, some military hardware, and that's a part of Ukraine. Then we have NATO allies, like, for instance, Romania, Bulgaria, other -- Poland, the Baltic countries and the eastern part of the alliance. For them we provide security guarantees. We say that if one of those countries are attacked, the whole alliance will respond -- will come and defend them.
So this is a difference between being a partner, highly valued partner, Ukraine we support them, and NATO allies, where we provide absolute security guarantees.
SCIUTTO: Understood.
The trouble is, each side has different red lines here because Russia is saying their red line is NATO military support to Ukraine, including both the possibility of troops, advisers and weapons, and Russia warned that if NATO crosses that red line, it would threaten GPS satellites, saying that it has the capability -- and, of course, you saw the test, the anti-satellite test a couple of weeks ago, to take down all 32 GPS satellites.
I wonder, do you fear that a conflict in Ukraine could develop into a larger conflict between Russia and NATO?
STOLTENBERG: The task is to prevent that from happening, and that's, first of all, the reason why we call on Russia to stop its aggressive actions against Ukraine. Every nation has the right to self-defense. That's actually enshrined in the U.N. Charter and the -- and Ukraine has been under attack for a long time from Russia, invading Crimea, but also continuing to support the separatists -- the armed separatists in Donbas (ph) and eastern Ukraine and now aggressive rhetoric, cyberattacks and the strong concentration of Russian forces close to Ukraine's borders.
So, NATO support Ukraine is 110 percent, or is absolutely in line with our national obligations. And NATO -- and Ukraine, of course, has the right to self-defense. And allies support Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty.
SCIUTTO: One other issue here, right, is what Ukraine wants, what NATO is willing to give, and how Russia would react. Because Ukrainian officials have been very public about their desire for a closer association with NATO. Russia is saying, any closer association with NATO, they will not tolerate.
What is NATO willing to do here? Will NATO assure Russia that Ukraine will not become a member state? What does NATO then say to the Ukrainians? What is the answer?
STOLTENBERG: But just the whole idea that Russia can decide what Ukraine can do is absolutely wrong. That's actually the idea from the past, where we have -- where we have big powers like Russia had a sphere of influence where they control -- where they were controlling small neighbors.
Ukraine is an independent, sovereign nation. They have the right to choose their own path, including whether they will be part of an international security alliance, like NATO.
So, Russia has no veto, no say on whether Ukraine will become a member of NATO or not. That's for Ukraine to decide.
[09:40:01]
And the 30 allies to decide when Ukraine is ready and meet the NATO standards.
So, again, Russia tries, in a way, to control neighbors. And that's the main problem in this conflict, that Russia doesn't respect the integrity of a sovereign, independent nation.
SCIUTTO: So you're saying, to be clear, that Ukraine, either association or membership with NATO, is still a possibility?
STOLTENBERG: So we have decided and stated in NATO that Ukraine will become a member of NATO, but Ukraine will become a member of NATO when 30 allies agree that Ukraine meet the NATO standards. And that's for the 30 allies to decide, not for Russia to decide.
And I, myself, I'm coming from a small country, Norway, bordering NATO. I'm very glad that our NATO allies never gave Russia that, in a way, power over Norway to deny us the obvious right to choose our own path when we decided to join NATO many years ago.
SCIUTTO: Understood.
Jens Stoltenberg, thanks so much for joining us this morning. We appreciate you joining the show.
STOLTENBERG: Thank you so much for having me.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Still ahead, former President Trump now refuting reports he hid a Covid diagnosis before his debate with Joe Biden. We have a live report with the latest details, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:46:01]
SCIUTTO: Former President Trump is now responding to a new report that raises serious questions about the timing of his coronavirus diagnosis. His former chief of staff has said in a new book that Trump tested positive days before the White House at the time, the administration, revealed that fact to the public.
HILL: And now CNN has learned there were whispers in the White House about Trump's positive test before his first debate with now President Biden.
CNN's Gabby Orr joining us from Washington.
So, Gabby, you know, it wasn't just this debate. There were a number of other places along the way where the former president was interacting with people.
GABBY ORR, CNN REPORTER: That's right, Erica. What we know, based on this new reporting, is that former President Donald Trump received a positive test for Covid-19 on September 26th. Three days later, he took the debate stage in Cleveland for that first presidential debate against Joe Biden on September 29th. And in between that positive test that Meadows writes about in his new book, and the first presidential debate, he held an indoor press conference at the White House, he held an indoor reception for gold star families at the White House, he held a press conference at the Rose Garden about coronavirus testing updates, and he met with supporters and held a rally in Pennsylvania.
So, if you add all of those events together that the president -- then President Donald Trump attended in between that positive test and the presidential debate, it's potentially hundreds of people that he knowingly put at risk after receiving a positive test for Covid-19.
Now, the former president did just issue a statement minutes ago in which he denies having tested positive for Covid-19 before or during the presidential debate. Here's what he said. He said, quote, the story of me having Covid prior to or during the first debate is fake news. In fact, a test revealed that I did not have Covid prior to that debate.
But as you mentioned, there have been whispers inside the Trump White House about this test, and according to "The Guardian's" reporting on this excerpt from Mark Meadows' new book, he said to aides to basically proceed as though everything was normal after the former president received that positive test.
HILL: Proceed as though everything is normal. You know, you think you can't be shocked anymore and then sometimes you are.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HILL: Gabby Orr, appreciate it, thank you.
SCIUTTO: Put other people at risk. Put other people at risk. Yes.
HILL: Yes.
Well, up next, it is the congressional version of "Mean Girls." Republican women publicly name calling, calling each other trash, grifter. So where is party leadership in all of this? Call the principal.
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[09:53:08]
SCIUTTO: Very public infighting among the House GOP. At the center of the exchange, Representative Nancy Mace, who criticized fellow Republican, Lauren Boebert, for making anti-Muslim comments about Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar and others. In response to Mace's comments, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene tweeted in part, Nancy Mace is the trash, her words, in the GOP conference. Mace, you can back up off of Lauren Boebert or just go hang with your real gal pals, the jihad squad.
OK, so Mace responded this way saying.
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REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): Make no mistake, Marjorie Taylor Greene is a liar.
She's crazy. She's insane. She's bad for the party.
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HILL: Well, Greene, of course, not surprisingly, returned fire, tweeting she'd spoken with Trump about Mace. She responded saying this is about Greene's anti-Muslim rhetoric.
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REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): What it says to me is that if you say something that's batshit crazy, you say something extreme, you're going to raise money. And that is the only reason that she does that. I mean she's a grifter of the first order and she does it to raise money.
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HILL: CNN's Melanie Zanona joining us now from Capitol Hill.
Look, I mean, no one ever said that Congress was neat and pretty and polite, but not sure you thought you'd be spending your days this way.
How is, if at all, Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy handling this public feud? It was a little quiet in the beginning when it was just dealing with Boebert and her comments about Ilhan Omar. Where do we stand this morning? MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, Kevin McCarthy is
working behind the scenes to try to keep the peace in his conference. He knows this is a huge distraction for Republicans. They would much rather keep the focus right now on the Biden agenda. In fact, that was the message at a conference meeting this morning.
[09:55:02]
The head of the GOP campaign arm said we should not be the headline here. Let's stay focused on our goals.
And as Manu Raju and I reported yesterday, Kevin McCarthy also hauled in Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Mace for private, separate meetings where he essentially told them to knock it off. But that message clearly didn't hold because after the meeting I caught up with Greene and she told me that she would actually support a primary challenge to Nancy Mace and that Nancy Mace, after her meeting, told reporters, all I want to say about Marjorie Taylor Greene is bless her f-ing heart. So, clearly, the two wings in the party, the moderates versus the (INAUDIBLE), are at a loggerheads and tensions are boiling over.
And, meanwhile, Democrats say this behavior from the extremists in the party, like Lauren Boebert, is completely unacceptable.
Take a listen to what Ilhan Omar had to say yesterday at a press conference about Lauren Boebert.
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REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): So when a sitting member of Congress calls a colleague a member of the jihad squad and falsely -- and falsifies a story to suggest that I will blow up the Capitol, it is not just attack on me, but on millions of American-Muslims across this country.
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ZANONA: Now, what's unclear at this point is whether Democrats will actually try to punish Lauren Boebert. So far, however, most of them are saying the onus should be on Kevin McCarthy.
Jim. Erica.
SCIUTTO: We'll see what appetite he has to try to stop it.
Melanie Zanona, thanks very much.
Right now, hundreds of people are gathered outside of the Supreme Court as justices are set to hear arguments on a case that could end possibly abortion right for many parts of the country. We're going to take you there live, next.
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