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Michigan School Shooting; Omicron Reaches United States; Supreme Court Prepared to Gut Roe v. Wade?. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 01, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

GLORIA BROWNE-MARSHALL, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: And that goes against science, so then we will just forget about science and make up standards as we go along.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: And, Steve, to the question of precedent, Justice Sotomayor talked about -- or asked the question, will the institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception of -- that this is all political?

STEVE VLADECK, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I think it's the right question from Justice Sotomayor.

And one of the things that really came through in the argument today is, yes, there have been bad precedents throughout the course of history that the justices have overruled, usually, though, in the favor of expanding individual rights.

Here, we have a case where overruling precedent would be to take away rights that the court has recognized. We haven't seen that kind of decision where the country is so evenly divided, where there's so much reliance built into women assuming that they have the right to pursue a pre-viability abortion.

I think Justice Sotomayor is are saying, hey, conservative colleagues, we're not ready for this, if you actually take the step that it looks like you're willing to take.

BLACKWELL: All right, Steve Vladeck, Gloria Browne-Marshall, thank you for being with us.

We have got some breaking news at the top of the hour. Thanks for being with us.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And it is the top of the hour. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

BLACKWELL: And I'm Victor Blackwell.

We are following multiple fast-developing stories this hour.

The first case of the Omicron variant has been detected in San Francisco. A person who traveled from South Africa tested positive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: The individual was a traveler who returned from South Africa on November the 22nd, and tested positive on November the 29th.

The individual is self-quarantining, and all close contacts have been contacted and all close contacts thus far have tested negative.

The individual was fully vaccinated and experienced mild symptoms, which are improving at this point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Also, any moment now, we expect to hear from authorities investigating yesterday's deadly school shooting outside of Detroit. A fourth student has now died from his injuries.

Last hour, the Oakland county prosecutor announced that the 15-year- old suspect will be tried as an adult.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN MCDONALD, OAKLAND COUNTY, MICHIGAN, PROSECUTOR: We are charging this individual with one count of terrorism causing death, four counts of first-degree murder, seven counts of assault with intent to murder, and 12 counts of possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is live from Oakland, Michigan, and CNN national security analyst Juliette Kayyem with us.

Shimon, just tell us, what other headlines did the prosecutor say?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the most significant charges here are the four counts of first-degree murder, which allows the prosecutor here, Karen McDonald, to charge him as an adult.

The 15-year-old now charged as an adult, facing the prospect of life in prison. And that is the one significant piece of news, obviously. We also learned that there was perhaps some kind of premeditation here, the prosecutor saying that this was not an impulsive act. Would not tell us any other information, because, obviously, this is still an active investigation.

And they also obviously need to now take this through the court system. So they don't want to do anything to hurt the case. So the prosecutor wouldn't reveal more information.

But, clearly, there is information that they have obtained that says that there was some kind of planning that went into this. Also very significant here is the gun. The sheriff confirming that the father, the father of the alleged shooter, buying the gun four days before the shooting. The father and mother now potentially facing criminal charges for failing to secure that weapon, perhaps other charges as well, but obviously still a lot for prosecutors and for investigators to figure out. But there's been a lot of new developments here, the 15-year-old now charged as an adult, the fact that this was some kind of premeditated act -- excuse me, Alisyn -- and now, of course, the idea that the parents could potentially face charges.

BLACKWELL: All right, let's turn now to Juliette.

This -- trying this 15-year-old as an adult, and also the terror charges, what do you make of those?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So it's interesting, and people shouldn't make too much of it yet.

We do know that now, according to our reporting, is that there is some sort of premeditation or motivation. So we don't know what's in the writings or what they may have taken down by social media.

Michigan state charges of terrorism are not how we normally think about them. They go to intimidation or felony and death to intimidate a civilian population or the government. So, you can -- by killing, that's intimidating, of course, a coercion.

So we really have to take a political motivation out of this right now, right now. This is what we don't know. So the charges themselves are not telling us anything, except for, one, he's being tried as adult, two, life without parole. I mean, that is going to be -- there's no chances for him if he's convicted.

[15:05:14]

And then, of course, leaving open -- with these charges leaving open that the parents are charged under the same statute as aiding and abetting this terrorism felony that Michigan uniquely has. That's a big deal for them, for the parents, of course, who clearly -- whatever you say about them, were clearly negligent, at best.

CAMEROTA: OK, Shimon Prokupecz, Juliette Kayyem, thank you both very much.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

Joining us now is Fred Guttenberg, whose daughter Jaime was killed in the 2018 Parkland High School shooting. And Zachary Cartaya, he's a survivor of the Columbine shooting in 1999. He's the founder of The Rebels Project, which supports victims of mass trauma.

Thank you both so much for being here.

I'm sure that you are sickened to have to have this conversation again, as I am.

Fred, you and I have spoken way too many times about this. I have lost track of how many school shootings I have covered in the past 22 years since Columbine. I don't know if it's 40. I don't know if it's 45 anymore.

Fred, I don't -- I'm out of questions to ask about this. What do we need to know about the shooter's motive? What are the right questions today?

FRED GUTTENBERG, FATHER OF PARKLAND SHOOTING VICTIM: Regarding the shooter's motive, I actually don't want to talk about him.

I want him to get what's coming to him from the court of law. I'd rather talk about how we got to this place, because, listen, you're so right. It's not even four years ago that my daughter was killed. But since she was murdered with a gun, we have lost over 150,000 other Americans in the less than four years due to gun violence.

Since Columbine -- and I know Zachary's on the line, with -- it's probably over -- well over a million Americans that have died because of gun violence. And here's what you need to know today. There was just a big, huge Supreme Court hearing today. There was another one just a couple of weeks ago.

Today, they talked about sanctity of life. And a couple of weeks ago, those same justices argued against the sanctity of life. This is the sanctity of life conversation that America should be having. We don't stop protecting life when people are born. That's when we're supposed to start.

And yet, in the aftermath of this shooting yesterday, we had Congresswomen Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Mace acting like children, and then we wonder why our kids think acting out is OK.

I'm sorry. I am pissed. I have had enough. It's enough. This is not impossible to solve.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

GUTTENBERG: It is not a Second Amendment issue. We can save lives. It's not rocket science.

CAMEROTA: Fred, you deserve to be angry. You deserve to be angry. You lost your daughter. We're all angry and having to be in this position again.

And what I find -- and I'm so glad you raise this. We talk all around the edges of it. Well, what other security measures could have been taken? Was it about mental health? What -- instead of getting to the heart of the matter, which is that we're awash in guns here.

GUTTENBERG: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And, clearly, we haven't figured out how to keep them out of the hands of volatile 15-year-olds.

Zachary, I just want to turn to you, because it's been 22, 23 years. And I think you do such a great job of talking about it's not just the day of the school shooting that's horrific enough. It's the next 23 years of your life that are marked by that episode. What are your thoughts today?

ZACH CARTAYA, FOUNDER, THE REBELS PROJECT: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Thanks, Alisyn.

And, Fred, it's good to hear from you. And I'm again sorry for your loss.

But every kid at Oxford High School and in that community has now been touched by gun violence. And it's not something that gets solved overnight. There's no quick fix to this. You deal with this for the rest of your life.

And it's unfortunate, and it's so hard for young people, who have their whole lives ahead of them, to have to start this journey now. It's absolutely heartbreaking. For me, myself, I'd be remiss to say that I'm not in a tough spot at the moment with Michigan.

And we had two shootings, school shootings here in Colorado, at Aurora Central High school at Hinkley High School, over the last couple of weeks here. This keeps happening with such frequency that there has to be a commonsense answer that we can get to ensure the safety of our kids.

Just echoing what Fred said, if life truly does started at conception, then it doesn't stop after birth. It's something that we have to do to protect children not only from the violence and the physical injury, but some of the mental injuries that can take place that I know personally have a massive detrimental effect on your life if you don't keep up with them and do the work.

[15:10:01]

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CARTAYA: And so, today, for me, it's just once again heartbreaking and hard to find myself here after so many years and after screams 23 years ago of never again. And here we are once again.

CAMEROTA: And, Zachary, you have done such a great job of talking about how it sticks with you, even when you're on a plane at a tarmac delay, the feeling of claustrophobia of something possibly going horribly wrong, when you have been in a conference room at work in a meeting, that being in a small room and having a panic attack.

It stays with you forever. And my feeling today is that all we have done in 23 years is teach our young kids how to get better at these safety drills.

GUTTENBERG: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I mean, you should what one of the students -- let me just play for you what one of the students described, how good they have gotten at what they have to -- how they have to hide now in their classroom after their years of drills.

So listen to this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ABBEY HODDER, OXFORD HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT: And I heard him initiate our Nightlock system.

And then next thing I knew, I was helping barricading doors with our tables that we have in the rooms. I think we have been through these trainings since around seventh or eighth grade. Once we started pushing like tables, I kind of understood what was happening, just because of our training.

Knowing that the shooter was close, we knew that it was a better idea. And it was also part of the ALICE training to evacuate if possible. So we all just slowly hopped out a window one by one, and started to run towards the mire that was nearby.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Fred, they have been going through these since seventh grade, so now they know how to barricade their classroom door.

GUTTENBERG: I heard that young person earlier.

And I'm going to be really honest. After I heard that, I cried. We can't keep doing this. We're teaching our kids to be -- to expect terror. We are raising a generation of kids who are growing up with the expectation that they can be shot any time, any place, instead of showing them the leadership and doing something about it.

And, again, to save lives is not saying you're against gun owners or the Second Amendment. It's saying you want to ensure everyone also has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I heard that young person and I cried this morning, because it's not fair. It's not right. I visit my daughter at a cemetery. But you know what? My son was in the school at the same time, just like Zachary. And these kids are going to grow up living with that forever. We are better than this as a country.

This is the sanctity of life conversation. And we can still get this right. But we're running out of time.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CARTAYA: And to jump on Fred's point there, it's sickening. I had one bad day at Columbine. I had four good years and one bad day.

I lived like a typical kid who got to enter and exit the school at my own discretion and go to lunch with my friends and live my life. That's not a reality anymore. They don't get that luxury. And I worry about the ongoing trauma of having to learn to barricade yourself in, run, hide or fight, that's taught in our schools now, as opposed to taking some action that can save kids' lives.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Guys, the press conference is beginning, it looks like, here on this topic.

Gentlemen, I so appreciate you. I appreciate everything that you have said. And if we're not tempted to cry today, then I don't know what has become of us, because everything that you're saying, Fred and Zachary, makes me want to cry right now.

We're -- we have gotten ourselves into a horrible position. And I just appreciate always both of your wisdom on this very much.

So, Fred Guttenberg and Zachary Cartaya, thank you very much.

CARTAYA: Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: We're going to listen in now for this update.

GUTTENBERG: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, gentlemen.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

MICHAEL BOUCHARD, OAKLAND COUNTY, MICHIGAN, SHERIFF: ... this individual wholly and completely responsible for the deplorable, tragic event that occurred, by choice.

And so we appreciate her stepping up quickly and charging this individual as an adult, which I have said from the beginning of this I believe is most appropriate.

You also know we put out a release, sadly, the 17-year-old fourth victim passed today at McLaren Hospital shortly after 10:00, as our fourth decedent to die from gunshot wounds in Tuesday's senseless shooting. You already know the other three tragic victims, and, thankfully, we're learning more about them. And, hopefully, we will honor their memory, not just with the charges, but to talk about their life and what amazing young people they were.

You also know seven other people were injured. I'm going to update you on their status, six students, one teacher. Four remain hospitalized. Three have now been treated and released. A 14-year-old male remains in serious condition with GSW, gunshot wounds, to the jaw and hand.

[15:15:07]

A 17-year-old female with neck wounds, she is at the local area McLaren Hospital. A 14-year-old female has improved, thankfully, I would say no small part to great medical care, emergency responders, fire service, and prayers, quite frankly, of the public. She's been removed from critical to stable with gunshot wounds to the left chest and neck. She's at Hurley Medical in Flint.

And we have a 17-year-old female that still remains in critical condition with a gunshot wound to the chest, so still looking for prayers and support for her and her family. The following discharged was a 15-year-old male who had a wound to the

left leg. A 17-year-old male who had a hip gunshot wound, he was discharged. And a 47-year-old female teacher that had suffered a gunshot wound to her left shoulder was discharged, as you already know.

Again, the charges levied by the prosecutor were supportive of, including one kind of terrorism causing death, because very clearly there were a lot of victims in that school other than the ones that were actually struck. And then, in addition to that, she charged four counts of first-degree murder, seven counts of assault with intent to do murder, and 12 counts of felony firearm.

Our detectives right now are in the car on the way to District Court 52-3 for a swear-to, to the facts and allegations contained in these warrants. And after those are sworn to, we anticipate that a video arraignment from Children's Village direct to the court will occur.

And we are asking and joining the prosecutor to ask the judge that this individual be transferred to the Oakland County jail from Children's Village. So we hope that the judge rules on that as well.

I'd like to update you on some of the information. This is still evolving, right? It's a crime scene. We have still got a ton of interviews to do, video to review, documents to review, search warrants that have been completed that have to be examined in terms of content and items that were seized. So, sometimes, things evolve.

When I said last night that he had seven rounds left, he actually had 18. Seven were in his pocket there were loose, so he had an additional rounds in an actual magazine. Excuse me. So he had a total of 18 live rounds left.

We have recovered 30 spent shell casings at this point by processing the scene, meaning he fired more than 30 shots. More to the point, again, I think it highlights the fact that, with this much ammunition still with him 18 live rounds, the quick actions of the school and the lockdown, as well as the deputies getting in and going to the sound, going to the danger, saved lives.

That doesn't minimize the loss or the tragedy. But it's important that we continue to look for ways to prevent these and, if they ever tragically happen, how we can mitigate and reduce that tragedy.

The suspect, we believe at this point, now had 3 15-round magazines. Two were initially recovered by investigators. And after a thorough forensic examination of the crime scene, which went until 5:30 this morning, another magazine was recovered.

As I mentioned, the crime scene was searched and processed until 5:30 this morning and has now been turned back to Oakland -- excuse me -- Oxford Schools.

We're coordinating counseling and therapist efforts with CARE House to assist all oxford community schools. And we also have an offer for a crisis team from the FBI. And we're grateful for that assistance. I would remind and encourage anyone, whether they were there or feel traumatized by the event, it is strength to seek help, not weakness, that trauma affects people in dramatic and sad ways.

And asking people for help, seeking a therapist or a counselor or a chaplain, is an important step to process such a tragedy.

Also, I want to clear up some of the incorrect information that keeps circulating. Social media keeps ginning up a great deal of false information.

[15:20:00]

A video was disseminated rather widely that showed the students in a classroom and depicted someone knocking on the door, and pretty much the allegation was that that was the suspect.

We have now been able to determine that was not the suspect. Excuse me. More than likely, it was one of our plainclothes detectives. And he may have been talking, "Bro," in a conversational manner to try to bring them down from the crisis to say, "Come on, bro, let's get out of the classroom. Let's get you outside. Let's get you" -- that kind of comment.

The suspect, we have now confirmed by analyzing all of the video from the time it began until the time we took him into custody, never knocked on a door.

So, the other thing that we are seeing that we have heard on social media was that, again, we were notified about this threat in advance. False. The threat that we were notified in advance was one from November 11 that actually we did investigate. And it was determined to be from Georgia, not Oakland County, and had no relationship to Oxford Schools, and was cleared as such.

That is continuing to be cross-populated to this event. It has nothing to do with this event. So, people are posting: I called the sheriff's office about a threat.

It was a different set of circumstances that had nothing to do with this individual or the facts at hand. There were two events that happened fairly close proximity and timelines in locations to Oxford. Both of them had nothing to do with this. We received no information about this individual prior to the shooting.

We also were told that the school had some information or some contact with the individual. We had no information from the schools. But we have since learned that the schools did have contact with the student the day before and the day of the shooting for behavior in the classroom that they felt was concerning.

In fact, the parents were brought in the morning of the shooting, and had a face-to-face meeting with the school. The content of that meeting, obviously, is part of the investigation. But we did not learn of that meeting, nor of the content of that meeting, until after the shooting and during this investigation. So, please, I remind everyone, be wary of social media and what is

spread, because it's hurtful to the community. It's hurtful to the victims. And it spreads false, sad misinformation.

If anyone has information or believes they know something about this case, or, frankly, any case or any potential threat anywhere in Oakland County, please call our phone line that we have given out before at 248-858-4911, or you can e-mail us at OCSO -- Oakland County Sheriff's Office -- OCSO@oakgov.com.

And, of course, we always accept anonymous tips.

So I will try to answer questions, if it doesn't get too deeply into the evidence, because we're right now at the baton point where we're passing the baton from investigation to prosecution. And we don't want to say anything that may jeopardize that furtherance of the case.

Secondly, one of the victims' families has been getting a great deal of contact from the media. They don't want to talk to the media. And they're feeling bombarded in this unbelievable moment of pain.

So we would ask you to leave the family members that lost loved ones alone.

Yes, the father described it as wolves at the door. And they're dealing with the loss of a child. Let's not victimize them again, please.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) victim who passed today, multiple ages have been given.

Seventeen.

BOUCHARD: Seventeen.

QUESTION: The prosecutor just said 15.

BOUCHARD: Seventeen.

QUESTION: That's 100 percent?

BOUCHARD: We verified it via driver's license.

QUESTION: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: Sheriff, can you confirm that the suspect, that the suspect was at school and then left and then came back.

(CROSSTALK)

[15:25:01]

QUESTION: Is that true?

BOUCHARD: The suspect was at school and did not leave, was brought into a meeting and then went back and into the school area.

QUESTION: Sheriff (OFF-MIKE) nature of the concerning behavior (OFF- MIKE) in the classroom? Was it a threat? Was it violent behavior?

BOUCHARD: I can't -- I can't get into that.

Again, we're at the evidentiary handoff point. But...

QUESTION: Was that information that should have been relayed to the liaison officer or (OFF-MIKE)

BOUCHARD: We always prefer to err on the side of too much, rather than too little. I can't really go much beyond that.

But we would rather, as I said yesterday, check out 1,000 nothings than miss one real deal.

QUESTION: Is that going to be investigated? Is the school going to have to potentially answer questions?

BOUCHARD: Well, it's certainly part of our investigation. And that's where we learned about it.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

BOUCHARD: Yes.

QUESTION: And the parents left, but he stayed in the school?

BOUCHARD: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you know what time of the morning that might have occurred (OFF-MIKE)

BOUCHARD: Shortly after 10:00, I believe.

QUESTION: So, between 10:00 and almost 1:00, right?

The shooting was at close to 1:00, right?

BOUCHARD: Correct, 12:52, or thereabouts, the first call came in, or was dispatched.

QUESTION: Sheriff, we're hearing that he went into the bathroom, he loaded the gun in the bathroom before walking out to shoot.

Can you confirm that?

BOUCHARD: I can tell you he came out of the bathroom with the firearm and began shooting. I can't tell you if he loaded it in there.

QUESTION: Any updates on a motive just yet, Sheriff?

BOUCHARD: No.

We obviously are not communicating with the suspect. So we can't get that from him. We're working items that we have seized, as I talked about, documents, papers, phones, evidentiary value, items to look to see if there's something that would lead to us understanding what motivated him.

But I will say again, there is nothing that he could have faced that would warrant senseless, absolutely brutal violence on other kids.

And I have also asked the school if they have any records of him being bullied. And the coordinator of anti-bullying programs had no information that he had been bullied by anyone.

QUESTION: The prosecutor talked about premeditation, in her estimation, but was not able to clarify whether it was premeditation of certain victims.

Did he go there with an intent to just kill and these people were randomly targeted, or is there any indication they were specifically targeted?

BOUCHARD: We have no indication that these students were specifically targeted. And based on what I have seen, I don't think that's the case.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) Was there any discipline that was discussed that you know of or just discipline that was decided in that meeting?

BOUCHARD: I really don't want to get into the specifics of that meeting, because now it's part of the investigation.

But I wanted to be transparent that we learned that a meeting had occurred and we did not know about that until after the shooting.

QUESTION: Sheriff, was he ever expelled from school?

BOUCHARD: No.

He -- prior to those two meetings, there was no contact and nothing in his file by either concerning behavior or discipline.

QUESTION: In the investigation, how has the interaction been with the parents?

BOUCHARD: With the parents the child?

QUESTION: Of the suspect.

BOUCHARD: Yes.

Well, they have apparently hired an attorney. So we're not talking to the child or the parents.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) not reported to your office, but as you go through the digital evidence and the writing, how clear or specific were threats (OFF-MIKE)

BOUCHARD: Yes, I really don't want to get into ultimately what will be disclosed at trial and what we recover in terms of documented evidence.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) social media (OFF-MIKE). Can you address some of the rumors about a countdown being displayed on one of his social media accounts, something that was ticking down to the day?

BOUCHARD: That's the first I have heard of it right now. So, again, there's so much out on social media that we have spent a lot of time investigating and finding there was nothing to it, then debunking.

And it's causing us a great deal of resources. And it's causing the victims more harm and more hurt.

QUESTION: Is there any indication the suspect has been treatment for mental health conditions (OFF-MIKE)

BOUCHARD: We have no information about that.

QUESTION: Sheriff, what was his proximity to the victims? Was he within (OFF-MIKE) walking down the hall?

BOUCHARD: Very close.

QUESTION: He was very close, as opposed to...

(CROSSTALK)

BOUCHARD: Very close. Very close.

QUESTION: Sheriff, I know all of this happened within like five minutes. But is there like a timeline that you can give us as far as where the shooting started and the direction or avenue that he took?

BOUCHARD: Again, I don't want to get too awfully specific into the actual elements.

He came out of the bathroom, began shooting, moved through hallways, and back through hallways, and was apprehended in the hallway, never went into a room. He was in the hallway the whole time.

[15:30:00]