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January 6th Committee Seeks Contempt Charges; Supreme Court Leans Towards Limiting Abortion; Baldwin Comments on Movie Accident; Key Witness Testifies against Smollett; No Path Forward after Blinken/Lavrov Meeting. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired December 02, 2021 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[09:30:20]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: The House select committee investigating January 6th has moved to hold another witness in contempt of Congress. Former senior Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark defied his subpoena by refusing to answer questions or hand over documents during a recent deposition. But he may have one more chance to comply, if he appears for a deposition on Saturday and pleads the Fifth Amendment, the panel might stop the criminal contempt process.
Let's bring in CNN's senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.
Paula, is that his way out here in effect, pleading the Fifth?
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's certainly a shift in strategy. And since the beginning of this investigation, lawyers sympathetic to former President Trump have been telling me, this is exactly what witnesses should do. Don't stonewall. Show up and invoke the Fifth Amendment. That makes it a lot more difficult for them to hold you in contempt and it's also not terribly helpful to the committee.
Now, it appears the committee is still moving forward with potential contempt proceedings against Clark. But his lawyers, in this last minute letter, saying that now, now he intends to invoke his Fifth Amendment, but they're not just going to let him get away with sending a letter. They're going to make him come in on Saturday and take the Fifth for every single question.
SCIUTTO: But the end result's the same. He's not going to supply the documents or the information.
REID: Exactly, which is why this has been a strategy that a lot of lawyers who are sympathetic to the former president have said, this is what you should be doing. It also marks a significant shift in the strategy so far which has been to try to lean on privilege or executive privilege.
SCIUTTO: Right.
REID: So far that has not been successful. The current administration is not supporting that. That issue is, of course, working its way through the courts, but it does not look like the former president is going to prevail on that issue.
SCIUTTO: Right.
REID: So a significant change in strategy, but they could still -- still potentially try to pursue contempt against Clark.
Representative Jamie Raskin had a warning for Clark. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): You can't -- you can't plead the Fifth to an entire prosecution. You can't plead the Fifth to every question you might be asked. So, it applies only when you have a specific and reasonable apprehension that your answer could be used against you in a criminal prosecution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: But, look, if he actually shows up, and he pleads the Fifth to most of these questions, it's going to be really difficult for the committee to pursue criminal contempt proceedings against him successfully. Very different than Steve Bannon, who just completely stonewalled the committee.
SCIUTTO: Right.
REID: Didn't show up. Didn't try to invoke this right.
SCIUTTO: And, by the way, seems like that's exactly the fight he wanted.
REID: Exactly.
SCIUTTO: Paula Reid, thanks very much.
REID: Other big story we're following this morning, the very real possibility that Roe v. Wade could be overturned. It's been the law of the land for some 50 years. The Supreme Court, yesterday, heard dramatic oral arguments in a case that revolves around a Mississippi abortion law seeking to ban abortions after 15 weeks. And we should note, with so many of these laws, no exceptions for rape or incest. It has already been blocked by two lower courts, but the conservative justices appeared skeptical of the landmark Roe decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS, SUPREME COURT: But if it really is an issue about choice, why is 15 weeks not enough time?
JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO, SUPREME COURT: The fetus has an interest in having a life. And that doesn't change, does it, from the point before viability to the point after viability? JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH, SUPREME COURT: And the reason this issue is
hard is that you can't accommodate both interests. You have to pick. That's the fundamental problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Let's bring in CNN Supreme Court reporter Ariane de Vogue, who's been following this closely.
A big takeaway seems to be that the clear majority questions Roe v. Wade at the very minimum. As you -- as you read that, is that the direction that this is going? Not just with regards to the Mississippi law, but big picture that Roe v. Wade does not survive this court or these decisions?
ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Oh, it seemed clear that the conservatives want to get rid of Roe v. Wade. The big question, do they want to do it here, in this case? Or do they want to gut -- say that states can bar abortion much earlier and then try to leave some remnant of the right, maybe for another case.
Because Chief Justice John Roberts, he was pushing that middle ground. Don't touch Roe for right now. And the reason it is, is because he cares about the institutional legitimacy of the court. He doesn't want the first case where this court is asked to overturn Roe v. Wade for it to swerve hard. The question is, he needs other votes.
It was clear that he wasn't going to get Justice Clarence Thomas, Justice Neil Gorsuch yesterday. So others might be in play.
For instance, Justice Brett Kavanaugh, in the past, has looked at things incrementally. So maybe he would be interested.
[09:35:00]
But yesterday he did seem to suggest that this issue doesn't belong in the courts, maybe it does belong in the states for the public sphere.
SCIUTTO: Right.
DE VOGUE: And he also went out of his way a couple of times to say how many times the court has overturned precedent. Take a listen to what he said.
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JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH, SUPREME COURT (September 8, 2018): As a judge, it is an important precedent of the Supreme Court, by it I mean Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood versus Casey, been reaffirmed many times, Casey is precedent on precedent, which itself is an important factor.
If we think that the prior precedents are seriously wrong, if that, why then doesn't the history of this court's practice with respect to those cases tell us that the right answer is actually a return to the position of neutrality. (END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Did he contradict himself there from what he said in the hearing?
DE VOGUE: Well, so there you have him during the confirmation hearings talking about the importance of precedent, which every single nominee does, right?
SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.
DE VOGUE: But that often changes. And that was clear yesterday. Suddenly he's saying, well, there are some times when we've overturned precedent.
So the takeaways yesterday, this Mississippi law, it looks like they're going to uphold this one. We don't quite know what's going to happen with the John Roberts middle ground. As far as Trump's nominees, we've talked about Brett Kavanaugh, Neil Gorsuch. A lot of supporters of abortion rights were looking at Amy Coney Barrett, but she did worry them yesterday because she seemed to buy into Mississippi's argument that maybe there are laws that are different now, are stronger, that would protect a woman who wanted to relinquish an infant or adoption laws.
SCIUTTO: OK.
DE VOGUE: That was problematic for this court.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this as sort of an endgame here. Right now it stands at 23 week, abortion legal, up to that point, set by Casey. Mississippi is 15 weeks. You did have Roberts talking about the possibility of, well, maybe 15 -- is 15 weeks really an undue burden? Is this a possible outcome here where rather than getting rid of Roe entirely, a right to an abortion entirely, they just set the timeline earlier?
DE VOGUE: So, practically speaking, that's what he seemed to be -- put forward. Let's do 15 weeks. Problem with that, the moment the court does that, Mississippi has another law it's working through that's six weeks.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.
DE VOGUE: And don't forget that Texas -- already this court is considering that Texas law that bans it at six weeks, they haven't even come out with an opinion on that.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
DE VOGUE: So that would seem to be a real slippery slope.
SCIUTTO: Say the least. Ariane de Vogue, thanks very much.
DE VOGUE: Thank you. SCIUTTO: Still ahead, Alec Baldwin is now speaking out saying he did
not pull the trigger in the fatal shooting incident on the set of his film. More from his first sit-down interview since that deadly incident, next.
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[09:42:22]
SCIUTTO: Alec Baldwin is now speaking out after the deadly shooting on the set of his film "Rust." The actor sat down with ABC News for his first formal interview since the October incident that you'll remember left cinematographer Halyna Hutchins dead, also injured the film's director.
Have a listen.
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ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: She was someone who was loved by everyone who worked with and liked by everyone who worked with and admired.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: It wasn't in the script for the trigger to be pulled?
BALDWIN: Well, the trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So you never pulled the trigger?
BALDWIN: No, no, I would never point a gun at anyone and pull the trigger at them, never.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: CNN's Lucy Kafanov joins me now.
Lucy, some crew members are already responding. What's been their reaction?
LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jim. The assertion by Alec Baldwin that he didn't pull the trigger is being disputed by at least one crew member, and that's Serge Svetnoy. He is the head lighting technician for the film "Rust." He's actually suing Baldwin and other crew members claiming that the lethal bullet almost hit him as well and that he suffered severe, emotional distress because of that death on set.
Now, his lawyer issued a statement blasting Mr. Baldwin's comments to CNN saying, quote, guns only fire when someone pulls the trigger or if someone pulls the hammer back and lets it go. Either way, the gun was in Mr. Baldwin's hands when it fired and the bullet -- when it fired the bullet and he bears responsibility for the harm done. As the producer and actor on the "Rust" set, he knew or should have known all of the corners that were cut on safety and about all the serious safety violations occurring on a regular basis on his film. Now, Baldwin was holding an antique revolver during a dress rehearsal
for "Rust" when that firearm discharged the live round, killing the film's cinematographer, Halyna Hutchins. The bullet, as you mentioned, also injured the film's director in the shoulder.
And it's important to note, Jim, that the preview of the clip, of course, didn't include Mr. Baldwin's description of how he thinks that weapon discharged. This was an hour-long interview. He appeared emotionally distressed during some of the questions, saying this was one of the worst things that's ever happened to him.
Take a listen.
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GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: You said you're not a victim. But is this the worst thing that's ever happened to you?
ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: Yes. Yes. Yes. Because I -- I -- I think back and I think of, what could I have done?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAFANOV: Now, the focus of the investigation now is how those live rounds ended up on that set.
[09:45:00]
We know that investigators initially determined that two other people had handled that loaded gun before it was discharged. That was the film's assistant director, as well as the head armorer. A new search warrant that was carried out on Tuesday focused on a place called PDQ Arm and Prop, which is one of the suppliers of dummy weapons and bullets for the "Rust" film. It's owned by a man named Seth Kenny (ph), a movie gun supplier.
A detective who carried out that warrant found additional, quote, suspected live 45 millimeter rounds according to a court document obtained by CNN on Wednesday and gun prop experts have told CNN that it's very unusual to find live ammo at a gun prop business.
We've reached out to Seth Kenny for comment. The investigation at this stage, Jim, still very much ongoing.
SCIUTTO: Yes, what could possibly be the use of those live rounds?
Lucy Kafanov, thanks so much.
This morning, it's day four of the Jussie Smollett trial underway. The actor is accused of making false reports to authorities that he was the victim of a racist and homophobic attack in 2019. One of two men who prosecutors claim helped Smollett stage the hoax is now testifying that Smollett wanted him to, quote, fake beat him up.
CNN correspondent Omar Jimenez live in Chicago.
This is key testimony from a key witness here saying that this is exactly what Smollett asked him to do.
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jim, this is the key witness of the trial, him and his brother. These are two people that Smollett allegedly paid to stage a fake hate crime.
Now, we're on the other side of some very significant testimony that Abimbola Osundairo, or Bola as he's known, gave over the course of yesterday. Specifically, he said that Smollett picked him up in a car at a separate location days before the alleged hate crime would have taken place back in January of 2019. And as they drove toward Bola's apartment, he said Smollett told him that he wanted Bola to fake beat him up. And Bola said he was confused at first but then eventually agreed because he felt indebted to Jussie Smollett, even saw him as a brother.
But then they realized, according to testimony, they needed another person, a third person to help, so they got Bola's brother, Olabinjo Osundairo.
And then they were all riding around together discussing exactly what Smollett wanted them to say and do, including to hurl racial slurs at him, including to hurl homophobic slurs at Smollett and what would be days later.
And Osundairo testified as well that they wanted to do a dry run of this two days after they unusually met to show that there was a surveillance camera where they wanted this to unfold in front of for media, as Osundairo described over the course of testimony. They wanted this to be seen.
Ultimately, it was not seen in the end of the surveillance camera in that area missed things, but prosecutors, if there was any doubt by jurors, tried to paint a crucial bottom line with this witness when they asked Bola, who was in charge of this? To which Bola simply responded, Jussie was.
Now, looking ahead, we're going to hear from the defense today. Today is cross examination. The defense will have a chance to push back on some of these narratives that the prosecutors did -- what was likely an effective job at showing that Osundairo was in on this plot, as it has been described from the very beginning. The defense, though, has said that over the course of this, as they alluded in opening statements, that this was someone who took advantage of a close relationship to Smollett, and we'll see if that plays out in court, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Omar Jimenez, thanks very much.
Still ahead this hour, the secretary of state speaking out, this hour, after a high stakes meeting with his Russian counterpart, warning of severe consequences if Russia were to invade Ukraine. Is there a path forward?
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[09:53:18] SCIUTTO: These are live pictures from Stockholm, Sweden, where Secretary of State Antony Blinken has just met with Russia's foreign minister. To date, that meeting did not yield a concrete path forward over tensions in and around Ukraine. This according to a senior State Department official.
Blinken has warned of, quote, serious consequences for any Russian military action in Ukraine.
CNN's Alex Marquardt, traveling with the secretary of state, joins me now from Stockholm.
Alex, this is a key meeting, Lavrov, Blinken. Do you have any sense from speaking to officials there that they discussed a path forward or have even an outline of a path forward?
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The path forward, according to both sides, Jim, is really just more diplomatic discussions. The senior State Department official that you just mentioned said that there would be intense, diplomatic discussions in the coming days.
But this was a highly anticipated meeting between these two men that in the end was very short. And, in the end, they did not emerge with any sort of concrete plan to de-escalate. Now, that was not the expectation going in.
I think also what's interesting is Secretary Blinken, we are told, did not lay out in explicit term what those serious consequences would be. He had said yesterday that they would be, amongst other things, high- impact economic measures. But we're told he did -- he did tell Lavrov today that there would be serious costs.
Here's a little bit of what Secretary Blinken had to say just ahead of that half-hour meeting with Lavrov.
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ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: We have deep concerns about Russia's plans for renewed aggression against Ukraine. That would move us in exactly the opposite direction. And it's simply not in anyone's interest.
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[09:55:04]
MARQUARDT: For his part, Foreign Minister Lavrov said that this is a question of Russian self-defense, that their security is threatened when they see NATO moving eastwards. Now, of course, Ukraine is not a member of NATO, but they certainly have political and military support from the NATO countries, including the United States.
Jim, Blinken has said that it is not clear whether Putin has made up his mind whether or not to actually invade Ukraine, but that they have put in place the capacity to do so in short order as he said. And all the indications that they're seeing now are virtually identical to the conditions that they saw on the ground in 2014 when Russia did invade Ukraine.
Jim.
SCIUTTO: And still occupies Crimea seven years later.
Alexander Marquardt, thanks so much.
President Biden set to announce stricter guidelines as the country fends off the new omicron variant. Not shutdowns but other measures designed to control the spread. We're going to have live, team coverage, next.
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