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Blinken Says, It's Now on Russia to De-Escalate in Ukraine; Stacey Abrams Announces She's Running for Governor in Georgia; Supreme Court Appears to Lean Toward Limiting Abortion Rights During Mississippi Law Arguments. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired December 02, 2021 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:07]

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: We are seriously considering them. And, of course, we should note, as you did in the introduction there, Jim, that he said that President Putin and President Biden may speak in the coming days. So, that is a conversation that we'll watch for closely.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: and we know that, as we reported, that President Biden sent his CIA director to speak with Putin about this very issue.

Matthew Chance, as you know, particularly in Ukraine, NATO is at the center of this. Russia considers any closer association between Ukraine and NATO really a red line. You have a NATO secretary general telling me yesterday, listen, that decision is up to Ukraine and NATO. What are you hearing from Ukrainian officials?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jim. Well, that's precisely what the Ukrainian position as well. I mean, they've been somewhat angered by the fact that Russia, the foreign minister and Vladimir Putin, the president of Russia, and the day before this meeting with Secretary Blinken, has come out and said, look, what we want are legal agreements to physically prevent or to legally prevent NATO from expanding east wards any further towards Russian borders. The Russians have been arguing for some time that's a red line for them and that they need it for their national security.

But, as you mentioned, the alliance, the United States has been pushing back on that. Ukraine is very much in that fold as well. A statement issued by the Ukrainian foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba, saying this, Russia cannot stop Ukraine from getting closer with NATO and has no right to have any say in relevant discussions. Any Russian proposals to discuss with NATO or the U.S., any so-called guarantees that the alliance will not expand to the east are, in the words of the foreign minister, illegitimate.

And so the Ukrainians are getting pretty annoyed with the fact that the Russians are trying to do a bargain with the United States essentially to get some legal agreement to exclude them from any kind of inclusion in the western military alliance in the future, Jim. SCIUTTO: Interesting Ukraine is sensitive to what Washington might do to defuse this. Matthew Chance there in Kiev, Kylie Atwood at the State Department, thanks so much.

Setting up for a big political rematch, Stacey Abrams announcing another run at the Georgia governor mention, but the incumbent, Republican Brian Kemp, might have some competition within his own party first. How this race could be a preview of the broader political landscape in 2022 and 2024, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:35:00]

SCIUTTO: Grassroots efforts led by Stacey Abrams helped Democrats turn Georgia blue in 2020. Now, she's hoping that same blueprint makes her the nation's first black woman to be elected governor. Abrams just announced her bid for 2022, the second time she has run for governor. It sets up a potential rematch with current Republican Governor Ryan Kemp, her opponent in 2018. But, first, he has to make it to the general election, facing challengers within his own party.

Joining me to discuss, Andra Gillespie, she's a political scientist at Emory University in Atlanta.

First, big picture here, how would this race play out? And is Georgia potential fertile political ground for Stacey Abrams as governor?

ANDRA GILLESPIE, POLITICAL SCIENTIST, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Well, most people have been anticipating that Abrams was going to announce she was going to try to run for governor again. The wrinkle in the race is whether or not David Perdue will challenge Brian Kemp in the Republican primary and whether or not he would win.

But assuming that this is a Kemp/Abrams rematch, this is something that people have been anticipating since the day that Abrams acknowledged that she wasn't going to be governor in 2018. The differences are she would be running against an incumbent, so it's a lot different than running in an open-seat contest. And the electoral dynamic in 2022 is going to be different from 2018, even though I expect that we're still going to see some themes that we saw three years ago next year.

SCIUTTO: I wonder, and I want to get to the primary in a moment, but Brian Kemp not liked by Donald Trump because we wouldn't go along with his big lie that he actually won the state of Georgia, which has lost him some rapport among Republicans, might that play to Abrams' advantage in a general election?

GILLESPIE: If Kemp is able to survive the primary and be the nominee, I would expect that Republican voters would coalesce around Brian Kemp. And Brian Kemp looks like, based on what he said yesterday, he's going to try to run a national campaign where he's going to try to portray Stacey Abrams as an out-of-touch progressive. And he's going to invoke the same tropes that many Republicans are using nationally to deride the Democrats. Also given the fact that we expect Republicans are going to pick up seats in Congress during the 2022 election cycle, this might be a cycle that is going to be good for Republicans. Abrams' strategy is to find every Democratic voter that she possibly can and make sure that they turn out to vote.

SCIUTTO: It's not out of the realm of imagination that Donald Trump might publicly undermine a Kemp candidacy. I mean, we saw him -- he's attacked him publicly before, and we saw the president, in view of Republicans, by the way, undermine Republican Senate candidates in 2020, perhaps helping to reduce Republican turnout. Is that a possibility if Kemp wins the primary?

GILLESPIE: Well, I mean, first, I think we need to think about what would happen in the primary. I would expect that if David Perdue chooses to run that Donald Trump will come to Georgia and stump for him.

[10:40:03]

I think the challenge will be in a gubernatorial race, can he stay away from Georgia in the way that he stayed away from Virginia. That seems less likely just given the dynamics of the state, and then we just have to wait to see how that would undermine support for Kemp.

SCIUTTO: So, where is the polling currently on Kemp versus the possibility of Perdue in a primary?

GILLESPIE: Well, I mean, I think at this point, it's much too early to speculate, and so any of the polls would need to be take within a grain of salt. I think right now, people are just looking to see whether or not Perdue is actually going to make the decision to run for -- to run and challenge and Kemp.

SCIUTTO: Well, it will be a big test, interesting race for sure. Andra Gillespie, thanks so much.

GILLESPIE: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: The future of abortion rights in this country is on the line, and the majority of Supreme Court justices seem open in opening arguments to upholding Mississippi's controversial abortion law, perhaps overturning Roe v. Wade. The key takeaways from those landmark arguments, coming up.

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[10:45:00]

SCIUTTO: This morning, abortion rights and public perception of the Supreme Court as an institution perhaps hang in the balance. The conservative-leaning Supreme Court seems ready to uphold a state law that bars abortions after 15 weeks, no exceptions for rape or incest. After hearing tense oral arguments in a Mississippi abortion case, it could result in an overall appeal -- repeal, rather, of Roe v. Wade.

Here is one key exchange from Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH, SUPREME COURT: And to be clear, you're not arguing that the court somehow has the authority to itself prohibit abortion or that this court has the authority to order the states to prohibit abortion, as I understand it. Correct?

SCOTT STEWART, MISSISSIPPI SOLICITOR GENERAL: Correct, your honor.

KAVANAUGH: As I understand it, you're arguing the Constitution is silent and therefore neutral on the question of abortion, in other words, that the Constitution is neither pro-life nor pro-choice on the question of abortion but leaves the issue for the people of the states or perhaps Congress to resolve in the democratic process, is that accurate?

STEWART: Right. We're saying it's left to the people, your honor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Only the court's three liberals made a case for keeping Roe intact, stressing the importance of precedent.

Here to discuss, CNN Chief Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin, he's a former federal prosecutor also author of American Heiress.

Jeffrey, during his confirmation hearings, Brett Kavanaugh referred to not only Roe v. Wade but Casey from 1992, which provided more details, set a new standard timeline for abortion as precedent and then made the point it's precedent on precedent, therefore, had greater weight. As you noted on Twitter yesterday, Senator Susan Collins, during the confirmation hearing, said that Kavanaugh assured her that he considered Roe v. Wade settled law.

Based on his questions yesterday, is Kavanaugh going back on those apparent commitments?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: He seemed to go almost out of his way to go back on his commitment because he went through a series of questions about the Supreme Court's ability to overturn its prior precedent precedents, which it clearly has. But Kavanaugh went on at some length about famous examples of the court overturning its precedents, the most famous being Brown v. Board of Education in 1954, overturning Plessy versus Ferguson, which said that separate but equal was constitutional.

You know, I don't know if he was trying to troll Senator Collins and say, hey, I'm confirmed, I can do whatever I want, but the contradiction between his confirmation position and the position yesterday seemed especially stark.

SCIUTTO: Let's talk about the potential consequences here, and it does seem that you have two pads, that you have a certain number of justices on the court who are willing outright to overturn Roe entirely. You had Justice Roberts presenting the possibility of some sort of middle ground where you lower the legal standard to be 15 weeks as opposed to 23 weeks for legal abortions. Is that middle ground possible or would it stand, I suppose is another question?

TOOBIN: Well, the question -- you're exactly right. Those were the two positions set out by the six conservatives on the court. However, that middle ground position of saying, well, 15 weeks is okay, but, you know, we'll see about other restrictions. Only Chief Justice Roberts, among the conservatives, showed any sympathy for it. The other five conservatives seemed very much more sympathetic to the idea of overturning Roe v. Wade altogether and saying, as in the exchange you just played, this is for the democratic process. This is an issue that the states should evaluate. It's not one for the courts.

Now, of course, the liberal position is the reason why we have a Constitution is we take some issues away from the democratic process. We don't allow states to invade freedom of religion or freedom of speech or equal protection of the laws. That's what a Constitution is. But the argument that Mississippi was presenting and many of the conservatives seem sympathetic to was abortion is just like any other law, we should leave it to the states.

[10:50:09]

SCIUTTO: You have a legal point of view that the court, in effect, made up a right to abortion, right, and a right to privacy not mentioned explicitly in the Constitution, they basically said it's implied in the Constitution. Where is the law on this? And how does the law on this right compare to others that are specifically delineated in the Constitution?

TOOBIN: Well, you know, the Supreme Court, since its very beginning, has defined rights outside the specific words of the Constitution. Justice Sotomayor raised the question of the Supreme Court itself. There is nothing in the Constitution that says the Supreme Court has the right to declare laws unconstitutional. That is not in the Constitution.

However, in 1803, in the famous case of Marbury versus Madison, Chief Justice John Marshall said it's the province and duty of the Supreme Court to say what the law is, and that's been the Constitution's interpretation for the last 200-plus years.

So, there are lots of areas where the Supreme Court goes beyond the written words of the Constitution. It says nothing about carrying a picket sign, but that is considered freedom of speech under the Constitution, lots of areas like that. But this is a battleground. You know, whether so-called unenumerated rights, rights that are not specifically mentioned in the Constitution, should be respected by the Supreme Court.

SCIUTTO: Jeffrey Toobin, hugely, hugely consequential decision, we'll be watching it closely. Thanks very much.

TOOBIN: All right, Sciutto.

SCIUTTO: This just in to CNN. Minnesota has confirmed its first case of the omicron variant. That would be the second then detected case of this new strain in the United States. We should note this was expected.

The first was a person who traveled to San Francisco from South Africa three days before Thanksgiving. Health officials say the man who tested positive in Minnesota developed mild symptoms on November 22nd after a trip to New York. Those symptoms have since resolved, so in both cases, mild symptoms.

Worth noting here, additional cases in the U.S. are expected not by itself an indication of growing threat. We're going to stay on top of that story.

Other story we're following this morning, the women's tennis organization is sending a tough message to China. The major move in the wake of the treatment of the tennis player, Peng Shuai, that has the country responding, coming up.

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[10:55:00]

SCIUTTO: Developing this morning, the Women's Tennis Association is suspending all tournaments in China and Hong Kong over concern for the situation involving Chinese Tennis Star Peng Shuai. The WTA says the decision was based on the lack of transparency by Chinese officials following Peng's sexual assault allegations against a senior Chinese communist leader.

CNN's Will Ripley joins me now from Hong Kong.

Will, this was quite a bold decision by the WTA. We've seen other professional sports, the NBA among them, not take this line. Tell us what more we know.

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Even the International Olympic Committee, Jim, not standing up to China on this issue. In fact, they are now claiming that they have had another video call with Peng Shuai and continue to insist, just like the Chinese government does, that she's fine, she's relaxed, everything is okay, totally ignoring the fact she made a highly emotional and painful allegation of sexual assault in a Weibo post that was erased by Chinese government censors in less than 30 minutes.

The WTA making the announcement on CNN, but the signal blocked inside Mainland China. Chinese censors erasing the story, Chinese state media staying silent inside the country, but outside, they have been engaging in a propaganda war mainly on Twitter, which is interesting, because Twitter is a platform that is blocked for people in Mainland China.

But Chinese state media propagandists have been tweeting ferociously about this throughout the day and they're even tweeting just in the last couple of hours, claiming that they have new details about the case, claiming that Peng Shuai is offended by the WTA's, in their words, unfair decision to suspend tournaments in China, even saying that the west is depriving Peng Shuai's freedom of expression, even though the Chinese system is the one that has censored and believed to have silenced her, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And, by the way, we've seen you, have we not, get taken off the air when you're discussing sensitive cases in China, including one recently.

RIPLEY: Absolutely. It happens more times than I can count. But every single time that CNN is on the air talking about Peng Shuai, it's erased. And it just speaks to the sensitivity that she made an accusation about a retired senior Chinese communist official, something that you just don't do in China without serious repercussions.

Some activists have said that the videos that China has released remind them of propaganda videos, forced confessions that they had to make, they were forced to make, when they were detained inside China. So, when you see Peng Shuai all smiles, well, pictures don't tell the whole story.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Well, Will Ripley, thanks so much. We'll see if there are any consequences for the upcoming Winter Olympics in China as well.

[11:00:00]

Thanks so much to all of you for joining us today, a lot of news today. I'm Jim Sciutto.

At This Hour with my colleague, Kate Bolduan, starts right now.