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Mark Meadows and Election Fraud Claims; President Biden Unveils Winter COVID Strategy. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 02, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:01:13]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Start of a brand-new hour. Good to be with you. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

President Biden just unveiled his new national strategy to fight the pandemic this winter. He presented a plan to protect Americans from the Delta variant and the new Omicron variant, which has now been detected in a second state, Minnesota.

Health officials there say the person had not traveled outside of the country, but had attended a convention in New York City the week before Thanksgiving.

BLACKWELL: Now, experts is still working to determine if Omicron evades vaccines, spreads more easily or makes people sicker than the other variants.

But the president repeated Omicron is no cause for panic. He said again that the need for vaccinations and boosters, those are paramount.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We knew there be cases of this -- of Omicron here in the United States, and it's here.

But we have the best tools, the best vaccines in the world, the best medicine and the best scientists in the world. We're going to fight this variant with science and speed, not chaos and confusion, just like we beat back COVID-19 in the spring and more powerful variant, Delta variant, in the summer and fall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN's Phil Mattingly is at the White House. We also have CNN aviation correspondent Pete Muntean following the new travel rules.

Phil, we will start with you.

And take us through the key points of the president's plan. PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: A couple of things that really stand out, particularly from the president, the idea of not panicking right now.

It's been the message we have heard from the White House over the course of the last several days, but there have absolutely been urgent deliberations behind the scenes to walk through how they could implement new proposals to try and address not just the Omicron variant, if it requires that, but also rising cases and deaths due to the Delta variant that is still dominant in the country.

And the primary focus from the president you saw today was on two issues, vaccines and boosters, and testing. On the vaccine and booster side of things, you see the White House really starting a national campaign of sorts to try and get people to get their boosters.

If you look over the course of the adults right now, in terms of numbers, more than 70 percent of those us individuals over the age of 18 have been fully vaccinated, but only 23 percent of those individuals have gotten boosters. That, more than anything else, is what administration officials believe is the best defense at this moment in time, given how much is unknown, related to the Omicron variant.

And then on the testing side of things, those with private insurance will be able to get free tests. For those who don't have insurance, the administration is putting out tens of millions of tests that will be available to those individuals, trying to ramp up that aspect as well.

But I was also struck, guys, by the president's message. Obviously, this has been an extraordinarily divisive issue inside this country for pretty much the entirety of the president's time of office. And, instead, he said this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: It's a plan that I think should unite us. I know COVID-19 has been very divisive in this country. It's become a political issue, which is a sad, sad commentary. It shouldn't be, but it has been.

Now, as we move into the winter and face the challenges of this new variant, this is a moment we can put the divisiveness behind us, I hope. This is a moment we can do what we haven't been able to do enough of through this whole pandemic, get the nation to come together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Guys, that may be a little bit aspirational.

The Republican National Committee just a few minutes after he finished putting out a statement related to the remarks, calling it a failed administration. However, right now, this is the policy proposal and a little bit of optimism or hope from the president on the messaging side too. CAMEROTA: OK, Phil, thank you.

Pete, so does this new plan include new travel requirements?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Two major changes to the travel space, Alisyn, and they really have to do with battling the Omicron variant, according to the administration.

First -- and this affects everybody -- the extension of the transportation-wide federal mask mandate. It was set to expire January 18, 2022, now set to expire March 18, 2022, so a two-month extension

[15:05:06]

This applies on all public forms of public transportation, planes, trains, buses, boats, also in airports. Also a big change here when it comes to the testing requirements for international travel. This applies to foreign nationals and U.S. citizens. You were supposed to show a negative coronavirus test to your airline within three days of your return into the United States.

Now you have to show one within one day of your flight back into the U.S. These travel restrictions are coming with a lot of pushback from the travel industry. And they say that these restrictions about eight countries in Southern Africa are really a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

I asked United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby about this yesterday before these announcements were just made. And he said that travel restrictions are really not the answer here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT KIRBY, CEO, UNITED AIRLINES: I don't think travel restrictions are a very effective tool in the toolkit against COVID. They're -- the most effective tool is -- frankly, is vaccines and getting everyone vaccinated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: When it comes to vaccines, now the question is whether or not the administration will go further on vaccines for travel.

Remember, foreign nationals coming into the United States still need to show proof that they are fully vaccinated. I asked a top official just yesterday about this in the travel space. And he said that, if that does get expanded maybe to domestic travel even, it would kill the major travel rebound that we have been seeing huge numbers over the Thanksgiving travel period, Alisyn and Victor.

CAMEROTA: OK, Pete Muntean, Phil Mattingly, thank you for all the reporting.

Let's bring in now Dr. Ali Khan, a former senior official at the CDC and the dean of the University of Nebraska Medical Center's College of Public Health, and CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner, professor of medicine and surgery at George Washington University. Gentlemen, great to have you.

Dr. Reiner, I know you have looked at the president's nine-point plan. Is there anything in particular that you think will be effective at combating COVID?

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I think it's all going to move the ball in the right direction. But I think it's just not bold enough.

And, really, the big issue right now is that about 55 million adults have chosen not to get vaccinated. And that is the giant pile of dried timber for this relentless fire. And the only way to get the really recalcitrant group of Americans to get vaccinated, I think, at this point, is to do what our neighbors in Canada have done, which is to require vaccination for air travel in this country.

We're requiring people who travel to the United States to be fully vaccinated, but we don't require Americans to be vaccinated before they get on airplanes in this country. There are very few places on the planet that have more virus than we have in this country right now.

And if we're going to incentivize Americans, the last 17 percent of adults who just have refused to be vaccinated, to finally get a shot, the way to do it is to require vaccination before air travel in the United States.

And I was hoping that the administration would have done that now, be bold, but they just have not felt they can pull that trigger.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Reiner, you have advocated for that, and others we have had on the show have advocated for that. I remember that Juliette Kayyem wrote a piece for CNN.com advocating for that requirement.

Who manages that? The bureaucracy that it would take to check and make sure that every domestic passenger was vaccinated, does that fall onto the airlines? Does it fall onto TSA? Who does that?

REINER: You know, we show an I.D. before we go through security. You will show your vaccine card.

Look, I think one of the original sins of our pandemic response was not instituting a national digital vaccine verification system for your mobile phones. We had the opportunity to do that right when vaccines were being rolled out.

But now we're left with vaccine cards. And that's what we have. When you go through security, you show your vaccine card. If you don't -- if you haven't been vaccinated, you can't get on board an aircraft. That's what -- we're requiring verification for international passengers coming to the United States.

Why are requirements lower for the massive number of people who travel every day in this country? CAMEROTA: Dr. Khan, one of the things that jumped out at me from the new White House plan is the supply treatment pills. And so you know the molnupiravir -- too many syllables -- is why...

BLACKWELL: Close enough.

CAMEROTA: Is the pill that has been -- well, an advisory committee at the FDA looked at it, and it was approved very narrowly, I think in a 13-10 vote.

Is that unusual? And what do you think moves the needle in this plan?

[15:10:00]

DR. ALI KHAN, FORMER CDC OFFICIAL: So, Alisyn, I think the message, the political message you had earlier in the segment about don't panic about government shutdowns is the same message around don't panic about Omicron.

Nothing's really changed. Regardless of how you get to it, we have vaccinated an insufficient number of Americans. We probably need to be about 85 to 90 percent of Americans that need to get vaccinated. And having this worker mandate would actually do the trick.

So I think there's a strategy to try to get to that 85 to 90 percent. But if you couple that with early testing, and this plan will include a lot more rapid testing, including free at-home testing, which is important, and then these new pills, oral antivirals that are going to be available, the reason that the Pfizer pill was -- molnupiravir was approved narrowly was that it doesn't seem to really be as effective as initially reported.

And there's concerns about it in pregnant women and nursing moms.

BLACKWELL: All right, so we have got a challenge out to cut the name of that pill to three syllables. Figure that out.

CAMEROTA: Yes, just a nickname, a nickname for it.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Reiner, let me come back to you.

What was surprising, at least for me, is that Omicron was identified. And then fewer than two weeks later, it was the dominant variant in sequencing in South Africa. Does that also suggest that -- we have got two cases identified here in the U.S. -- that a similar path would happen here?

REINER: No, not necessarily.

Remember that, in South Africa. Until just a few weeks ago, there was really quite a low amount, small amount of virus circulating, unlike the United States, where we are experiencing now 100,000 cases per day.

In South Africa, there was very little circulating virus. So, Omicron has not had a lot of competition. In the United States, there's a tremendous amount of Delta around. So it's not at all clear whether Omicron will outcompete Delta in the United States or even in parts of Western Europe.

That's something we're just going to have to see.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Khan, what do you think of this "New England Journal of Medicine" report that finds that Moderna, the Moderna vaccine is more effective than the Pfizer?

KHAN: In general, yes, it looks like.

But, remember, it's a higher-dose vaccine also, Alisyn, so there's reasons to believe it's more effective. But for our purposes, Pfizer, Moderna, they're both mRNA vaccines. Whichever one you can get, go get it, especially if you have never been vaccinated.

That's a key group we want to get vaccinated. And if you have been vaccinated, good time to go get that booster before the holidays.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Reiner, we just at the top of the show got this new analysis of Johns Hopkins data that shows that the risk of death in red states 50 percent higher than that of blue states.

Of course, this is since the vaccines have been released, and the overlap of the science and the medicine here in which the states that voted for President Trump more likely a greater indicator of whether they will get vaccinated, certainly if they will get boosted.

How does a Democratic president break through that wall? President Biden has been struggling to do it for his entire administration.

REINER: A Democratic president needs the buy in of the GOP.

But yet we have had over 100 members of Congress refuse to disclose their vaccine status. What kind of a message does that send to their constituents? What we need is both houses of Congress and both sides of the aisle to come together and say, this is a war. And we need a wartime footing.

And every member of Congress should be telling their constituents, you have to go get vaccinated. And if you -- and show them their vaccine card and tell their constituents that, if you have been vaccinated, now you need to get boosted.

This is how we get to the other side. But yet we really -- only one side of the chorus is singing right now. Look, Republican politicians somehow believe that this whole notion of vaccination is offensive to their constituents, so they don't want to irritate them.

But their constituents are dying. The data from Hopkins, the CNN analysis, shows that you are much more likely to die now of COVID if you live in a red state than if you live in a blue state, and it's solely attributable to this gigantic gap in vaccination.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

REINER: Less than 60 percent of Republicans have been vaccinated.

BLACKWELL: Well, instead, we have got some members of the Senate Republicans who are threatening to hold up funding to try to defund the president's mandate.

[15:15:00]

We're wrapping here.

Dr. Ali Khan, you got a message for us?

KHAN: Same message always. Get vaccinated and wear a mask.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACKWELL: Oh, I like this one. This is very snazzy.

CAMEROTA: This is a crowd-pleaser here, Dr. Khan.

BLACKWELL: All right. All right.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Khan, Dr. Reiner, thank you both.

KHAN: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: All right, so there's this new CNN reporting showing the central role former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows played pushing baseless conspiracy theories about the 2020 election inside the government.

CAMEROTA: And FOX News host Lara Logan is saying hideous things that bear no relation to reality. Is FOX encouraging her?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:18]

CAMEROTA: Investigators are preparing to interview former President Trump's Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, as new CNN reporting reveals just how far he went to pursue election conspiracy theories.

BLACKWELL: Several sources tell CNN that Meadows reached out to some of the country's top national security officials to try and connect them with Trump allies, pushing unfounded claims of foreign election interference and voter fraud.

Harry Litman is here. He's a former U.S. attorney and legal affairs columnist for the L.A. Times.

Harry, welcome back.

No wonder the committee wants to speak with him. He is the man at the center, as the title of his new book, "The Chief's Chief." He plays down his role ahead of the insurrection. But what, if you can tell us from what you have learned, is any criminal exposure here for him?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Right.

And, by the way, so, yes, he is the center of the center. He is Trump's conduit to all these agencies for all these wacky theories, from distortion of U.S. law to possible international conspiracies with China and the like.

And you can see now why they didn't want to refer him for criminal content, because, with Bannon, they lose his testimony when he goes over to that other side. With Meadows, they really need it.

Now, look, he's got a really solid criminal former deputy attorney general counsel. If they do tiptoe up to the edge of criminal exposure, he will certainly refuse on Fifth Amendment grounds. But, for now, he's sitting for what the committee has called an initial deposition. So they have in mind more than one.

And they have reached a deal to avoid the criminal contempt, which would have been catastrophic for him. So he may have some criminal exposure, potentially. But he will steer clear of that and can still give the committee all kinds of valuable information because he was, as you say, at Trump's shoulder during these critical days.

CAMEROTA: Harry, let me put a finer point on that so that our listeners and viewers understand.

This is new CNN reporting.

LITMAN: Right.

CAMEROTA: Two sources with direct knowledge of this situation told CNN this.

Here it is: "Meadows reached out to officials at the FBI, Pentagon, National Security Council and Office of the Director of National Intelligence to tell them about election fraud claims, including the China thermostat allegation," which basically claimed that China was able to with a thermostat change election results, "which Flynn and Sidney Powell had been pushing."

OK, so that seems important. If he pleads the Fifth, then does he skirt contempt charges? I mean, is it -- it's his prerogative, right, to the plead the Fifth.

LITMAN: He can...

CAMEROTA: And then the committee doesn't get this information.

LITMAN: And this comes up with Jeff Clark. He can plead the Fifth, Alisyn, but question by question.

And he's already going to be giving them a lot of information. By the way you put your finger right on it. This is -- Trump wants him -- we think now in terms of Jeffrey Clark, but this was any port in a storm territory, China. Anything that basically Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani were saying, Trump wanted Meadows to sell to any federal agency. And he tried to do it.

On the Fifth Amendment, again, if it gets too uncomfortable, and they're looking at, what, insurrection or fraud, George Terwilliger, his very good counsel, former deputy attorney general, says, take the Fifth, and he will. Next question, please.

It's not -- that doesn't mean he stands up and walks out, as, by the way, Jeffrey Clark is going to try to do on Saturday.

BLACKWELL: So let's talk about Jeffrey Clark.

LITMAN: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Because the committee, they have now voted for this criminal referral, but it's not going to the full House yet. They have decided to give him one more shot. He sent a letter saying that he is intending to invoke his Fifth Amendment protections.

And if they do that, they will set aside the criminal contempt referral process. But if he invokes it in ways that the committee deems illegitimate, they will move ahead with a floor vote.

What's the line here from a legitimate and illegitimate use of that Fifth Amendment protection?

LITMAN: Here's the committee and Schiff's line. The line is, it must be question-by-question invocation. Remember, Schiff is an ex-federal prosecutor.

They will sit him down and say, did you have this job? He will say, on advice of counsel, I decline to answer. They will go to next question and next question, and probably he will keep asserting the Fifth.

He's the one that asked for this extra interview so he could do it, because you can't refer somebody for content if they take the Fifth.

Now, the ultimate audience here, Merrick Garland. The committee will say, well, that's not good enough. But if he takes it in a blanket way and they serve up a criminal contempt motion to the Department of Justice that sees that this guy just took the Fifth and wouldn't answer, would that be enough for criminal content? I don't think so.

[15:25:15]

So I think his game is probably to go up and make a blanket assertion question by question. It will be, by the way, out of the public eye, in a private deposition Saturday. So I think it'll be a very uncomfortable, but unsatisfying back-and-forth for both parties.

BLACKWELL: All right, a lot to understand here.

Harry Litman, thank you.

LITMAN: Thank you, Victor. Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Harry.

BLACKWELL: FOX News host Lara Logan is doubling down on her outrageous comparison of Dr. Fauci to an infamous Nazi doctor known as the Angel of Death.

So far, FOX News has said nothing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)