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Fox Host Doubles Down on Nazi Comparisons and Network Silent; Independent Voters Weigh in on Biden Presidency; Man Who Says He Faked Hate Crime Attack on Actor Testifies. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired December 02, 2021 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Fox News personality Lara Logan is doubling down on her absurd comparison of Dr. Fauci to the Holocaust Angel of Death. Dr. Joseph Mangala forced grotesque and often lethal experiments on prisoners in the Auschwitz concentration camp, also on children.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Fox News channel is silent. So, we can assume, they support this.

Joining us now is Rabbi Ammiel Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York City. Rabbi, thanks so much for being here. I am always torn at this moment rather we should play what Lara Logan said so the viewers can hear it again, but it also helps it get out there into the broadcast world. Do you want to hear it again before you comment?

RABBI AMMIEL HIRSCH, SENIOR RABI, STEPHEN WISE FREE SYNAGOGUE: I know what she said. I feel the same way. It's really demoralizing, despicable, depressing, and it says a lot about not only other kinds of things but about the American political culture. You know that our culture has deteriorated so that we can't really disagree with each other without equating one another with the worst evil that we can think of. Joseph Mangala, the Angel of Death.

CAMEROTA: One of things that she said, is this is what people say to me, she said. This is the comparison I'm hearing. And I'm talking about people all across the world are saying this. So, in other words, these vague sources -- I mean, this is so incredible what she is saying. She could mean one person that she talked to in London, who knows. In other words, there's nothing reportorial about that statement.

HIRSCH: Right, and she's a reporter. When people say that --

CAMEROTA: Allegedly. And she was, she was a credible reporter at one time but that time has passed.

HIRSCH: And again, I think that says something about the decline of American political culture and how we debate one another. Because she was a respected reporter. And for a reporter -- you're in the business, I'm not in the business. But I'm also in public life. And for somebody in public life to say, I heard, people are saying, what they really mean is this is what I mean. This is my position. This is what I say.

BLACKWELL: You also choose -- especially she's got a program called "Lara Logan Has No Agenda." OK. But Fox News has said nothing about this. Lara Logan is one person. Fox News, a corporation, news core. What's your reaction to hearing nothing from the company?

HIRSCH: It's kind of depressing. Right. Because look, I run an organization. If somebody who represented my organization said something like that on any issue, I would call them to account, I would ask them to explain themselves. If they misspoke, and we who are in public life do that all the time. We err, we misspeak, we say things that were not particularly accurate. We apologize.

BLACKWELL: But was interesting though is -- and I've heard this misspeak line is that what we've heard from Lara Logan, what we heard from Marjorie Taylor Greene about gold stars a couple months ago, these are not details that people who just have a cursory understanding of the Holocaust know. You've got to do a little research. You've to understand a little more to reach for this comparison. So, it's not like, oh, I kind of just of made a sloppy comparison. This seems intentional.

HIRSCH: It does, and it seems like it's feeding into a group of people who want to hear this kind of message. You know, you mentioned Mangala -- describe him as the Angel of Death. I met somebody in Prague who was a prisoner in Auschwitz and he knew Mangala. His job in Auschwitz was to keep the children relaxed and not panic so that the Nazis could send them to the gas chambers without trouble. And he told me that Mangala used to visit the barracks once a week. So, I said, really, you knew Mangala that well. What was he like? He said he was the kind of person that could bounce a baby on his knees one day and send the children to the gas chambers the next day. That was Joseph Mangala. The worst of the worst.

CAMEROTA: It's also sickening really. And when she tries link what she says her facts are. They're from such bogus, just horrible sources. I mean none of it is, again, credible. But, Rabbi, we really appreciate you coming in and letting us know that there are real world consequences of this kind of garbage.

HIRSCH: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much for being here.

BLACKWELL: Thank you for your time.

[15:35:00]

CAMEROTA: All right, next up, we're going to hear from independent voters about how they grade President Biden's handling of the pandemic, the economy, the toxicity in this country. We're going to have "The Pulse of the People," next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Since taking office, President Biden has overseen the distribution of more than 400 million vaccine doses, the return of 5.8 million jobs and the creation of one of the biggest bipartisan infrastructure deals in U.S. history.

But COVID is still circulating, inflation has spiked and the partisan animosity is toxic. Biden's poll numbers have some. So, we wanted to know how voters, particularly independent voters, feel about the president's handling of these issues.

[15:40:00]

We assembled a group of self-described independents from Tennessee, Oklahoma, Indiana, Michigan and Kansas, all of whom have voted for both Democrats and Republicans in past presidential and statewide races. So here now is our "Pulse of the People."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: The president's poll numbers have gone from I think they were 49 percent approval rating on Inauguration Day. They've gone as high at 52 percent. Now they're down to 42 percent at last count. So, what do you blame that on?

ANDY MOORE, INDEPENDENT VOTER: Yes, I mean he inherited some really difficult times, the pandemic, our economic situations, the dysfunction in Congress. It just is kind of dragging down, I think, Americans' opinion of what's going on. And as president, that onus rests on him.

CAMEROTA: Why don't you all just tell me what grade you would give President Biden today.

MARK RITTER, INDEPENDENT VOTER: Oh, a "B", a "B." You know, it's been very unique after the insurrection and "Stop the Steal" movement, which is really unprecedented in our history. And he just maintained a certain level of sanity, and I applaud him for that.

AMIKKA BURL, INDEPENDENT VOTER: I would say a "B." between a "B" and a "B minus."

CAMEROTA: And what's your reasoning?

BURL: Yes, and so I would definitely say that he has delivered on many promises but some of them he has not. He promised when he was actually running on his campaign trail that he would wipe out $10,000 worth of student loan debt for every individual that had student loans. That has yet to come to fruition. So, I'm waiting for that to happen.

MOORE: Yes, I give President Biden a solid "B-plus," maybe an "A- minus" if you catch me had a good day. I think he gets blamed for a lot of what happens or doesn't happen in our country with the economy. We've been living in a pandemic for two years. We've got another variant on the way. We're all exhausted.

OK, Elaine, what grade do you give President Biden?

ELAINE STEPHEN, INDEPENDENT VOTER: Probably a "C-plus." He has not shown the fiscal restraint that I would like to see. At the same time, he has done well at -- at least trying to work in a bipartisan manner. One of the things that Biden has done really, really well is lead with integrity and with maturity and discipline.

AMBER HYSELL, INDEPENDENT VOTER: I would probably go with a "C-minus," because he's definitely an improvement over the last administration. There's no doubt on that. But I have yet to see any meaningful addressing of our immigration issues. I've yet to see any meaningful, you know, movement toward addressing the looming homelessness crisis that's coming.

BETH HARDESTY, INDEPENDENT VOTER: I think I would give him a solid "B." Kind of like what Andy said, on a good day maybe a B-plus.

CAMEROTA: Why not an "A", Beth? What's keeping you from giving him an "A"?

HARDESTY: There's been some bumps on, you know, different stages of the vaccine rollouts, but I think there was just some poor communications.

CAMEROTA: Show of hands, how many of you think that President Biden could be handling coronavirus better? OK, two of you think he could have been. So, Amber, what could he do differently?

HYSELL: I think a lot of the problems are misinformation. And until that is addressed in a meaningful way, I don't think we're going to see a lot of progress.

CAMEROTA: But what could he do about misinformation?

HYSELL: I think you'd have to look at regulations for things like social media, have harsher penalties.

CAMEROTA: Elaine, what do you wish he were doing differently?

STEPHEN: Staying out of it. I'm sitting here in Wichita, Kansas and we are at most 50 percent fully vaccinated in my county. And what I see here in Kansas is I see people saying, well, if a Democratic president wants me to do it, then absolutely no, I'm not even going to consider it.

CAMEROTA: When you say he should have stayed out of it, I mean what would that look like?

STEPHEN: Turn it over to local physicians, to state health officers, stop commenting, stop with the federal mandates. Anything that comes to Kansas a federal mandate from a Democratic administration, or even for that matter probably a Republican administration, is going to be instantly just laughed at.

CAMEROTA: Beth, you're in Indiana. Do you agree with that logic?

HARDESTY: So, I'm going to speak from experience as a business owner who has a couple of employees that will not get vaccinated.

[15:45:00]

They are both young, and so they both feel like if they even got COVID, they probably would not get sick, and if you are vaccinated, you could still potentially spread the virus to other people. So why do they need to get the shot? They just feel like they don't need to get the shot. They're being selfish, and the more that people go at them, you need to get it, you need to get it, the more they kind of push back on, no, I don't think I do.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about what you all think are the biggest issues right now.

RITTER: I think the labor shortage problem, jobs not being filled.

BURL: I mean we have over $1.73 trillion in student loan debt, so I would definitely say that.

HYSELL: I think our most immediate issue right now is homelessness.

MOORE: I think the biggest issue facing America right now is the threat that our democracy faces. The two parties have a stranglehold and I'm gravely concerned about what our democracy will have to go through next year and if we'll make it.

HARDESTY: I think the biggest threat is disinformation and misinformation. That really scares me.

STEPHEN: Yes, I think the biggest threat facing our country right now is partisanship. It's this partisan divide, this red team versus blue team, and if I'm on this team, I can't agree with anything that that team says. It's tearing families apart. It's tearing communities apart, and I think that, like Andy said, this is the biggest -- our democracy is at risk.

CAMEROTA: If the election were held today between President Biden and former President Donald Trump, would you still vote for President Biden?

STEPHEN: Yes.

MOORE: Absolutely.

BURL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: OK, so five of you would. What about you, Amber?

HYSELL: That's a "Sophie's Choice" for me. I don't -- if I had to choose between the two and there were no other options, I would vote for Biden, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Yes, I think that's interesting, when you hear that several of them say that the biggest problems are the disinformation and partisanship, well, that colors everything. I mean that colors, of course, the response to the pandemic, the economic challenges as well. Those two are paramount.

CAMEROTA (on camera): Absolutely, and I also thought it was really interesting to talk to them because every one of them had a different issue that they wished that President Biden were focused more on and so you realize how challenging it would be to be president right now.

Tomorrow we hear from them about whether they think that former President Trump will run again and what that would look like.

BLACKWELL: All right, looking forward to it.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: The brothers who allegedly faked an attack on Jussie Smollett detailed in court what the actor told them to do to stage the racist and homophobic hoax. We've got the latest from the trial. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:00]

BLACKWELL: The man who says he was told to fake a hate crime attack on the actor Jussie Smollett has now taken the stand and testified that Smollett had an idea for two MAGA supporters to attack him so he could put it on social media.

CAMEROTA: So, two brothers allegedly faked the racist and homophobic attack, this was back in 2019. Prosecutors say Smollett staged it to enhance his Hollywood profile. CNN's Omar Jimenez has been following today's testimony in Chicago. What happened, Omar?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor and Alisyn, Olabinjo Osundairo, otherwise known as Ola, told jurors that Jussie Smollett had this crazy idea of having two MAGA supporters or Trump supporters attack him and he was going to post it on social media.

And prosecutors specifically painted a crucial bottom line over a series of questions tied to that saying, Mr. Smollett, asked you to fake attack him pretending to be Trump supporters so he could then post it on social media? And Ola answered yes to all three of those questions.

We also learned some new details about the alleged plan for the fake attack where Ola said he was the one designated to put the noose around Jussie Smollett's neck and he was supposed to pour gasoline on Smollett but that it changed to bleach because he didn't feel comfortable with that particular part of the plan.

That of course, came -- or that testimony, I should say -- came after we heard from his brother, Bola Osundairo, who went through cross examination by -- at times tense cross examination I should say -- earlier today where the defense accused him or asked at one point if he was in a sexual relationship with Smollett to which Bola he denied.

He accused -- or he said -- the defense said that Smollett may not have been serious when this was first brought up because he was smoking marijuana at the time.

The defense also accused Bola of wanting to do security for Smollett and that rising tension there over not having the job may have been a reason for this which Bola denied as part of it.

[15:55:00]

When prosecutors got the chance to speak to Bola later in the morning, they pointed to a crucial threshold in this that neither Bola nor Ola testified that they knew the police were going to be involved at any point of this alleged scheme.

And that at least Ola testified not too long ago that he wouldn't have been involved at all if he knew the police were going to be called as part of this.

And that of course is the main crux of what Smollett is charged with. It is not necessarily the scheme of the fake hate crime that is being alleged here, it is more that they reported it as a real hate crime to police.

CAMEROTA: OK, Omar Jimenez, thank you for the reporting.

BLACKWELL: And "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:00:00]