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Parents Of Alleged Michigan School Shooter Arraigned Today; At Least 12 States Have Identified Omicron Cases; Two Pro-Trump Lawyers Plan To Plead The Fifth Amendment; Prosecutor: Dad Bought Alleged School Shooter Gun for Christmas; School Shooting Suspect's Parents Charged With 4 Counts Of Involuntary Manslaughter; Facebook Sold Ads Comparing U.S. COVID Response To Nazi Germany & COVID-19 Vaccines To Holocaust; Hawaii Under Blizzard Warning. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired December 04, 2021 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me this Saturday. I'm Frederick Whitfield.

We start this hour with our breaking news.

The parents of the accused Michigan school shooter appeared in court for the first time after being arrested late last night after a statewide manhunt. James and Jennifer Crumbley were arraigned in court this morning, now facing four charges each of involuntary manslaughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIE NICHOLSON, JUDGE: Do you understand that you're charged in count four for the death of Justin Shilling with involuntary manslaughter which is punishable by up to 15 years in prison, and are up to a $7,500 fine along with mandatory DNA testing?

JENNIFER CRUMBLEY, MOTHER OF MICHIGAN SHOOTING SUSPECT: I understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: They each pleaded not guilty to all the charges against them. CNN was there as the couple was taken into custody following an hours-long manhunt that ended when police got a tip and tracked them down to a Detroit warehouse.

Their 15-year-old son, Ethan, was arrested Tuesday and faces multiple charges including four first-degree murder counts. Four students were killed in the Oxford high school shooting and seven others were injured.

CNN's Athena Jones is in Pontiac, Michigan outside the Oakland County Sheriff's Office. Athena, what more do we learn about what potentially could be next for this couple?

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Fred.

Well, there's a few interesting things that happened this morning at the arraignment of Jennifer and James Crumbley, both of whom were being (INAUDIBLE) the Oakland County Jail which is not very far from here, the same jail where their son Ethan Crumbley is being held.

One thing we heard from the lawyers representing the Crumbley -- the parents is that they argued that they were not on the run, they were going to turn themselves in, at one point, one of their lawyers even apologize to the court. This is what she said, Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHANNON SMITH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR JENNIFER CRUMBLEY: I had no idea there was a four o'clock arraignment, Miss Lehman didn't know either. The media had so many reports of random times that quite frankly, we didn't believe that --

(CROSSTALK)

JULIE NICHOLSON, JUDGE: We're not going to get into --

SMITH: I just want to apologize to the court because we weren't aware.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: And so there you hear the judge saying we're not going to get into that.

I mean, these parents withdrew $4,000 from an ATM very near the place they were supposed to be arraigned yesterday and they certainly didn't act as though they were planning to turn themselves in.

But what's also interesting about this case is the fact that charges are being brought at all against the parents in a high school shooting case.

That is not commonly done, but in this case, Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said these parents need to be held accountable.

They failed to take action that could have saved the lives of these four teenagers, who, their son is accused of shooting and that the seven others who were injured.

That all of that could have been prevented if the parents had just acted on the knowledge they had. They knew that they bought a gun for Ethan Crumbley the Friday prior to this shooting.

They were made aware of disturbing incidents by two teachers seeing that even Crumbley looking for ammunition on his phone the day before the shooting, the day of the shooting, there was a drawing that was depicting a violent act, a body with two gunshots in it that was bleeding, a picture of a gun.

So these are warnings that -- an indication the parents should have acted on knowing that he had access to this gun. And so that is why this prosecutor says if these parents, in this case, are criminally negligent and they should be charged, they should be held accountable by no means that she's saying that all parents would be facing charges in any high school shooting.

But then, in this case, the facts are so egregious that she needed to bring these charges, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Yes. So many lives forever changed. Athena Jones, thank you so much in Pontiac, Michigan.

Let's talk more about all this now. Joining us now is CNN Law Enforcement Analyst and Former Acting Police Commissioner for Baltimore, Anthony Barksdale. Commissioner, so good to see you.

I mean, given what we saw, you know, playing out in Detroit overnight, the fact that the parents were on the run for quite a while, are you in agreement that this bond should have ever been offered?

ANTHONY BARKSDALE, FORMER ACTING BALTIMORE POLICE COMMISSIONER: No bond. Nothing should have been offered. Actions speak louder than words.

The lawyers are doing what lawyers are paid to do. They are defending their clients, but these two parents should be held accountable and I do not see how they got any bond.

WHITFIELD: You've also said on CNN that you know some of the ways in which law enforcement there mishandled this case, calling it a fumble, explain.

[13:05:00]

BARKSDALE: When you know that you're going to proceed against certain individuals for significant crimes, you put surveillance on them, you put resources on them.

It doesn't matter what it takes, you want to keep your eyes on them because you know where you're going with the case.

So for these individuals, for these parents to be able to make it to a warehouse in Detroit, now, law enforcement missed. They fumbled.

And it's something now we have to put behind us and focus on making a solid case.

WHITFIELD: Fugitive Apprehension teams are even deployed, you know, several hours after the couple then was not reached.

Today, their defense attorneys argue that they were just trying to avoid the media, you know, and that they had every intention of doing the right thing, they had already obtained an attorney before being on the run.

What do you say to that argument and how does that impact the road ahead for them? BARKSDALE: I really honestly, I'm just going to ignore that argument because of the -- you know, as mentioned earlier, the $4,000, then heading out to Detroit being in this warehouse, they've shown us too much to say that they were just going to say, hey, we're ready now.

And it's not up to them. It's not up to them to decide if they are pending legal action. The law enforcement arm of this, whoever called them the tip? Excellent work.

You know, Detroit did their thing, the person that called in a tip really help, so we have to deal with these individuals in the court of law, the parents and the son.

WHITFIELD: Yes, reportedly, someone saw, recognize the vehicle, called police, and then come to find out the parents were inside that warehouse. I wonder what kind of charges, if at all, do you think the person who helped them have access to that warehouse potentially? If there is someone who helped them have access, might they be facing charges?

BARKSDALE: Well, I hope they are. I mean, if -- you know if it's on the books, if there's a charge for it, aiding and abetting, you know, let's charge these individuals too because it's going to be important to know whatever conversations they've had. We know that the mother likes to text.

So you know, from text to conversations, we have to build a case against the entire family.

WHITFIELD: I mean, speaking of the text -- I mean, so much of this entire case is just simply stunning.

And you mentioned the text that prosecutors are saying the mother Jennifer texted her son, don't do it, the day of the shooting.

What explanation could Jennifer Crumbley have about that kind of text and tone?

BARKSDALE: I don't know what she can say. They're going to come up with something.

So whatever she wants to say, fine, but if you even fought to sin your son, that you had a mother in Sunday at the range with was up to no good and you send that text, then you know what you were dealing with in your household.

WHITFIELD: What potentially do you see -- how do you see this case? The handling of it, meaning now it brought, you know, four involuntary manslaughter charges against the parents.

How do you see this as either helping to lay the groundwork or setting a tone on how cases like this?

I mean, let's hope there are no more, you know, school shootings taking place but you know, this might be precedent-setting if there are. In what way are you hoping some lessons learned from this might be applied as a deterrent for this ever happening again?

BARKSDALE: Right, that is a great question. This case is huge because it's going to set the tone around the United States for responsible gun ownership.

You know, you have individuals what they call a straw purchase, where they go into a store, buy a gun and then pass it off to someone else.

In a sense, this is pretty close to that. They bought a gun for a 15- year-old that had no business owning a gun. They put it in his hands and we see what he did with this weapon.

So yes, they should be held accountable. I hope the prosecutor, I hope the police put something together that is silent and I hope to get it can -- I hope to see them get a conviction. But this case is really, really important. I hope they do not lose.

WHITFIELD: Yes. All right, CNN Law Enforcement Analyst, Commissioner, Anthony Barksdale, always good to see you, thank you so much.

BARKSDALE: All right, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, two of Michigan's most prominent sports teams are honoring the victims of the Oxford high school shooting.

[13:10:00]

WHITFIELD: The University of Michigan football team will add a logo to the Wolverines uniform for today's Big Ten Championship game. The University tweeted these photos showing what the logo will look like.

And the Detroit Lions are also honoring those killed or injured in the shooting. The team announced that they will hold a moment of silence before kickoff tomorrow at Ford Field.

All right, coming up COVID cases are rising across the country. But experts warn it's not just the new Omicron variant that we need to be worrying about right now.

Plus, the January 6 Committee is facing a major test as former Trump officials indicate that they will plead the Fifth, details straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: The Omicron variant is confirmed to be in at least a dozen states at this moment and that list is shorter grow as health experts study the mutations that could make it more transmissible. Here is CDC Director Rochelle Walensky.

[13:15:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: What we do know is that early data and even mutation data are telling us that this may well be a more transmissible variant than Delta. And so we're -- this is going to take some time to sort it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Whatever Omicron may bring, the problem right now is the Delta variant. Dr. Walensky mentioned over half of states spiked more than 50 percent in the last week, and the country as a whole is back over a hundred thousand cases a day, on average.

Jessica Malaty Rivera is a Microbiologist and a Senior Adviser at the Pandemic Prevention Institute. She's joining me now from Los Angeles, always good to see you.

All right, so do you think more focus needs to be on the Delta variant right now?

JESSICA MALATY RIVERA, SENIOR ADVISER, PANDEMIC PREVENTION INSTITUTE: I do. And that's because it continues to be the dominant strain that is circulating here in the U.S. and globally. Like you mentioned, we're back at nearly -- a daily average of a hundred thousand cases.

But I think it's important to remember that even though we're seeing these big numbers again, we're not back at square one, right?

We have still so many safe and effective tools in our toolkit to help keep these numbers down and to prevent the most acute cases turning into hospitalizations and deaths.

WHITFIELD: In so many tools among them, meaning just vaccinate fully?

RIVERA: Well, definitely vaccinations are among the most important and powerful tools but it's all the things, right?

It's masking, it's being mindful of your risk and avoiding high-risk indoor gatherings, it's keeping your distance, it's making sure that you are fully vaccinated, and if you have been at least six months out of your last dose to get boosted, of course, too.

WHITFIELD: A study out Friday suggests the Omicron variant may share some of its genetic makeup with a virus that causes the common cold. And we all know that the common cold is something we all just kind of have to live with.

Is that the path that you see us potentially being on with something like an Omicron variant?

RIVERA: So I think the emphasis should be on the word may and all and possible. There's a lot of speculation.

We still are waiting some really crucial data to help us understand the true impact of this variant's transmissibility if it's going to cause more severe illness if it's going to actually evade any immune protection that we get from the vaccines.

That said, it is very likely that the SARS-CoV-2 virus becomes endemic, meaning it continues to circulate in our population but over time, it should become less and less disruptive. The hope is that as we become more protected as a population, that it won't be as disruptive, meaning it won't put our health -- our healthcare systems at risk of strain and it won't cause such tremendous loss that we're seeing all over the world.

WHITFIELD: Vaccine makers all say that they're going to try and make some kind of adjustments but what do you think of the preparations that some of them have already laid out?

RIVERA: So I think this is all as a just in case, right, so all the speculation about vaccine effectiveness is far from helpful.

We have to remember that the Omicron variant is still the SARS-CoV-2 virus and so our immune systems are not going to be completely incapable of recognizing the spike protein on the virus, it is still the same virus.

And there's no current evidence yet to suggest that the variant is going to reduce its effectiveness in preventing severe disease and we definitely don't have data to show that it's out competing Delta.

As Dr. Walensky mentioned, it is still the dominant strain and we have to be mindful of that.

But I think preparing for modifications of the vaccine is the right thing to do as a just, in case.

WHITFIELD: President Biden announced that his administration's plan to tackle COVID this winter looks something like this with you know, people are traveling into the U.S. internationally, take their test -- negative test a day before, you see you know, masking up is still one of those measures. Is this enough?

RIVERA: It's not enough. I think that all of these plans are important and I would like to see them turn into actionable policies.

I think that there have been a lot of talk about limiting domestic travel and international travel to those people who have been vaccinated.

But I think I want to separate that too from the very unhelpful travel bans that we've seen that have specifically targeted a lot of African countries, those are actually not helpful policies.

But when it comes to this stuff that we're doing here in the U.S., per the Biden administration, what I would really like to see is actually much more effort being done on biosurveillance.

What we're dealing with right now is a consequence of not doing enough to find indicators and warnings of this type of stuff. We need to majorly improve our genomic surveillance capacity.

Even if we've doubled it to about 80,000 samples per week, we still have a long way to go to get a really good head start on trying to actually identify these risks of pandemic threats.

WHITFIELD: All right, Jessica Malaty Rivera, thank you so much, always good to see you.

RIVERA: You too.

WHITFIELD: All right, still ahead. Potential key witnesses in the January 6 investigation have indicated that they will plead the Fifth and one has told the Committee that he isn't showing up for today's deposition. Details straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:00]

WHITFIELD: A pair of pro-Trump lawyers, who the January 6 Select Committee wants to talk to, are planning to plead the Fifth Amendment.

Both men who were subpoenaed by Committee have notified lawmakers that they plan to invoke protections against self-incrimination.

For more on this let's bring in CNN's Marshall Cohen. Marshall Good to see you. So what more can you tell us about these developments?

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Hey, Fredricka, as we all thought today might have been a big day for the Committee but actually it's ending up a little bit more like a dud because as you said, these guys are not going to be testifying.

Two key players, I'll break them down in a second. But the news is that they are going to be invoking the Fifth Amendment.

It's their constitutional right not to say something that they think might incriminate themselves or be used against them later on so they're exercising that right.

[13:25:00]

COHEN: The first guy is Jeffrey Clark. He was a Justice Department official under the Trump administration.

He was involved in those schemes with Trump to try to use the DOJ to overturn the election, to try to unseat the acting Attorney General, depose him in a way, and send letters to states like Georgia, and Pennsylvania to try to get them to overturn the results.

Those schemes weren't successful, but the Committee wants to know more about what he was doing behind the scenes.

The second guy who said that he is not going to answer any questions and will plead the fifth, his name is John Eastman, you can see him here on your screen at that infamous rally on January 6.

He is now famous for his efforts to try to get Vice President Pence to break his oath, defy the Constitution, and use his position overseeing the Electoral College to overturn the election. That, Fred, obviously didn't work, either.

But the Committee really wants to hear from these guys to learn more about those efforts behind the scenes. It sounds like they're probably not going to get any answers.

WHITFIELD: And then Trump's former Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows is cooperating in some ways, with this -- with his subpoena, but also claiming executive privilege on other parts.

He has a new book out about his time to the White House. What is he saying and how might it impact the January 6 probe?

COHEN: That's right, Fred. Mark Meadows is cooperating to a certain extent with the Committee. He's expected to go in and speak with lawmakers this upcoming week.

That book though is definitely something that lawmakers are going to want to read before they question him. It's incredible.

We obtained a copy yesterday and we read through a lot of it. He doubles down on the big lie and is peddling conspiracy theories about the 2020 election and he's whitewashing the January 6 insurrection.

Let me read you a quote from the book. This is the only thing he divulges about his conversations with Trump on that day after that speech.

You just saw some footage from the speech. It was when Trump said to the crowd, we are going to walk to the Capitol.

Apparently, according to Meadows, it was kind of a joke. Here's what he said in the book.

"When he got off stage, referring to Trump, President Trump let me know that he had been speaking metaphorically about the walk to the Capitol. He knew as well as anyone that we couldn't organize a trip like that on such short notice. It was clear the whole time that he didn't actually intend to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue with the crowd."

OK, Frederica, I have read dozens and dozens of cases against these rioters, Meadows is not telling the truth here.

Many of those rioters said I wasn't planning to go to the Capitol but when Trump said let's all go together, I decided to march.

And some of them even were expecting him to be there as ridiculous as it sounds. Many of them told the FBI they did expect him to be there. So Meadows is kind of whitewashing January 6.

And one last thing about this is that he's talking about this in his book his conversations with Trump, but also claiming that they're privileged when the Committee is asking about it.

That could be an issue for him so we'll see how it all plays out later this week behind closed doors.

WHITFIELD: Yes. And it will be interesting to note how many drafts of those thoughts he may have had before it finally went to be published.

COHEN: True.

WHITFIELD: All right, Marshall Cohen, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

All right, still ahead. Teachers flagged concerning behavior from the suspected Michigan shooter just moments before the fatal attack was carried out. What could have been done differently in those critical moments? We'll discuss straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:33:15]

WHITFIELD: All right, we're learning chilling new details about the events that led up to that deadly school shooting in Michigan.

Investigators say James Crumbley purchased the gun for his 15-year-old son, Ethan, as a Christmas present just four days before the shootings.

Ethan and his mom, Jennifer, even posting about the gun on social media over the day that followed.

The morning of the shooting, a teacher found a disturbing note written by Ethan. His parents were immediately called to the school.

Prosecutors say Ethan had the gun in his backpack even before his parents had a meeting with administrators.

The Oakland County prosecutor is now charging his parents with four counts of involuntary manslaughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN MCDONALD, OAKLAND COUNTY PROSECUTOR: And I am, by no means, saying an active shooter situation should always result in a criminal prosecution against parents.

But the facts of this case are so egregious. Reading this document, look at it, readying the words, "Help me," with a gun, blood everywhere.

This doesn't just impact me as a prosecutor and a lawyer. It impacts me as a mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Joining us now, the co-director for the University of Michigan's Institute for Firearm Injury Prevention and the co- principal investigator for the National Center for School Safety, Marc Zimmerman.

Also with us, Sandra Graham-Bermann, a psychology professor whose research included traumatic stress reaction in children exposed to violence.

So good to see both you.

So, Marc, you first.

Teachers sounding an alarm, a few alarms. As someone who studies shootings extensively, what more should have been done to prevent all of this?

[13:35:04]

DR. MARC ZIMMERMAN, CO-DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR FIREARM INJURY PREVENTION, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN & CO-PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR, NATIONAL CENTER FOR SCHOOL SAFETY: I don't know all of the specifics of the case. Clearly, there were probably earlier signs than that. But this idea of identifying signs, trying to get at the issue early is really important.

But I tend to try to think of this ecologically, as we think about the trauma being not only of the families who were victims of the actual shooting but the rest of the families in the school and the children at school who were also affected.

Similarly, I think about community violence and how that might affect a child. A family conflict and what happens in the family. Access to firearms. And of course, the school climate itself.

So I think about all of those factors together in thinking how we can prevent school violence more generally and shootings more specifically.

WHITFIELD: All of this is just so heartbreaking.

Sandra, we have four families now who have lost children. And there were seven others who were injured. And their families, too, are grieving and suffering.

But the trauma extends to every student who was in that school that day. Really any student, you know, who, even if they weren't in school, this is their place, you know, of refuge, the safety.

So what do you expect that all of them are experiencing right now?

DR. SANDRA GRAHAM-BERMANN, PSYCHOLOGY PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: It's very clear that this was quite a traumatic event. And it affects everyone. Those close to the people who died, of the families of the students who died.

Those who had friends, those who were injured. Those eyewitness to the events or felt their own life was threatened at the moment.

But also people who are just students in the school who know someone who no longer feels safe and no longer have the same feelings about their school but about, also, how things are going to go for them.

It's important to understand that almost everyone will have a reaction of traumatic stress to such an event. For example, having nightmares, difficulty sleeping, becoming more anxious or fearful. But most people adjust over time. Most people are able to -- to heal somewhat and to go forward, even though they'll never forget the event or the people, but they're able to manage it.

But there's a number of people who can't. And I think the immediate programs that are being made available to the students in the school, having the evening vigils, things like that, bring people together, provide the support that's going to help in that healing.

But there are a number of people who may not recover over time. Kind of like long-haulers with traumatic stress. And those people are going to need more help, more professional help.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

Marc, I mean, the numbers are astounding. I mean, 48 shootings on K-12 campuses this year alone, 32 of them since August 1st.

I mean, how does anyone make sense of why is something like -- why is this happening on any school campus?

ZIMMERMAN: Again, it's all contributing factors just not school. COVID doesn't help either.

Anecdotally, I've spoken to educators across country. They noted that there's been more bullying, more fighting since kids have returned to school who were not in school all of last year or most of last year.

And, really, firearms and shootings are the tip of the iceberg. With 20 percent to 30 percent of our youth are bullied in school. And 20 percent to 25 percent are -- report being in a fight. Three quarters report witnessing bullying in the schools.

Those are all precursors to the horrific event we saw in Oxford.

But context matters. Schools can do many things about changing the environment of the school. They could focus on social emotional learning.

Helping youth develop skills so they can address the conflicts they're having. Bullying prevention programs that would provide bystander support and bystander intervention, if they see somebody getting bullied.

And kind of creating the environment of support rather than tension and conflict.

WHITFIELD: Well, Sandra, you know, you touched on this. I mean, there's a trickle-down effect.

There are a lot of people who are suffering from trauma as a result of this. Not just the students and faculty in the schools but the entire neighborhoods. It's all the community.

You heard the prosecutor. You heard police, law enforcement, who say this has happened to all of them. So collectively, how is everyone going to help each other heal or

cope?

GRAHAM-BERMANN: Well, I think you're raising a good point. It's very important to come together. To take the time to heal. To be respectful and to help each other.

[13:40:02]

For parents to talk to their kids. They don't have to have all the answers. They just have to be available to listen, and answer questions that come up.

But there's so much more that we can be doing on the community level by supporting more mental health people in the school system. But also mental health services available in the community.

These kids don't just suddenly become this way in high school one day. This is something that's developed over time.

If the parents can't see it, we need more education to help parents understand and to help other kids be able to talk about, you know, how they're feeling, if they see trouble signs from others, et cetera. There are many steps we can take.

We don't have to wait until high school. The sooner we can help kids develop -- as Marc said, develop better coping strategies but also get support from the family and services available in their communities.

There just aren't enough services. Waiting lines are a year long for mental health.

WHITFIELD: Terrible.

Invaluable information both of you are sharing with us. Thank you so much, Sandra Graham-Bermann, Marc Zimmerman. Appreciate you both. Thank you.

ZIMMERMAN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Still ahead, Facebook is under fire right now for making money off ads comparing the U.S. government's response to the pandemic to Nazi Germany. The alarming CNN reporting, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:45:50]

WHITFIELD: Facebook again under fire after an exclusive CNN report. The social media network sold ads promoting anti-vaccine messages, even comparing the U.S. pandemic response to Nazi Germany.

Other ads casting doubt on the 2020 election and pushing political violence sold as well.

Merchandise companies spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on Facebook featured these posts.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan has been following this story closely for us and has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Fred. Yes, some really disturbing and, frankly, disgusting ads running on Facebook.

Take a look at these.

"I'm originally from America but I currently reside in 1941 Germany." That's a comparison for the U.S. response to COVID.

And another one with a picture of a syringe slowly and quietly but it's the Holocaust.

And another ad seeming to condone political violence. "Making Hunting Traitors Great Again."

Facebook, for all its systems, they talk about all of their moderators say they hire, they missed these ads. Didn't see them, apparently, until they were brought to their attention by CNN.

Facebook said those first two ads, the Nazi and Holocaust comparisons, do actually go against their policies and they will not be allowed to run again.

But the last ad about hanging traitors, Facebook seems to say that's OK and you can pay them to run that sort of ad on the platform.

Facebook oftentimes will put all of these and try to frame it as a free-speech argument.

But these aren't just the random posts on a platform. These are actually paid ads that Facebook is accepting money to run to target their users.

Worth mentioning, of course, the Instagram CEO -- and Instagram owned by Facebook's parent company, Meta -- he'll be appearing before the Senate this coming Wednesday, he likely will be asked about this and many, many other issues facing the company -- Fred?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Donie O'Sullivan, thank you so much for that.

Joining me right now with more on this topic, Roger McNamee. He is the co-founder of Elevation Partners. He's also an early Facebook investor, a former adviser to Mark Zuckerberg, and now a critic of the company.

Roger, so good to see you.

ROGER MCNAMEE, CO-FOUNDER, ELEVATION PARTNERS & EARLY FACEBOOK & GOOGLE INVESTOR & FORMER ADVISOR TO FACEBOOK CEO MARK ZUCKERBERG: Fredricka, a pleasure to be back.

WHITFIELD: All right, so we heard from Donie's explanation there, or Facebook's explanation from Donie O'Sullivan's reporting. Is this an issue not noticing or is it an issue of just looking the other way?

MCNAMEE: Fredricka, it's very much the latter. Facebook does not prioritize the safety of its users.

There are literally billions of posts on Facebook platforms every single day, and some percentage of them -- you know, I don't know if it's 1 percent or 5 percent -- are harmful posts. That means tens of millions of harmful posts a day.

Now, Facebook would have to hire hundreds of thousands of people to police that. Artificial intelligence just isn't good enough.

Their strategy is simple. Do nothing and wait for people to complain. Or for intrepid reporters like Donie to find them. And the problem with that, of course, is the harm's already been done.

And there are literally millions of instances of this, of people who cannot get their story out into the public. This is a terrible, terrible thing. This product is currently unsafe.

WHITFIELD: Then you have Mark Zuckerberg, whether on Capitol Hill or maybe other lieutenants, who say, look, we're doing everything we can.

MCNAMEE: Yes.

WHITFIELD: But then you're also painting a picture of there's just too much and they don't have enough staff in order to find all of this stuff.

But whether it's our Donie O'Sullivan or any other users of Facebook, it certainly sounds like, from the reporting, that all of this is pretty easy to find.

MCNAMEE: Well, and it's actually worse than this, Fredricka, because the business model itself encourages exactly this kind of harmful behavior because they're trying to grab our attention.

Their systems all amplify, promote and recommend the things that engage us. So things like fear and outrage.

[13:49:59]

So hate speech, disinformation, conspiracy theories, scams. All of those things have special advantages on Facebook because they generate more revenue and more profits.

And the reality is there are no real rules, there's no regulator watching this stuff. So they can get away with unapologetically. At least they have for the past 15 years.

The problem is that the harms now include undermining a pandemic or undermining our response to a pandemic. They include an insurrection. And the scope of harm is so serious that the government has to enforce some kind of safety laws on these companies.

WHITFIELD: You're saying the government needs to do that because, in your view, it doesn't sound like Facebook really has the impetus to ever change anything?

MCNAMEE: The incentives are perverse.

Basically, Facebook is in a position where they can say to the government, we're bigger than you are, we have three billion members, right?

So they basically ignore the rules unless the law is brought down on them like a hammer.

They've gotten away with this for 15 years. Expecting them to change is unrealistic.

We need regulations -- (INAUDIBLE).

WHITFIELD: So in one respect, you say Congress, there has to be some regulation. But then you have previously said that Facebook executives should also face criminal probes for various offenses.

MCNAMEE: Yes.

WHITFIELD: How might that happen without any kind of congressional regulation?

MCNAMEE: So, Fredricka, the challenge of Congress is it takes 10 years to do anything. And these companies, not just Facebook, but also Google and others, have, maybe by indifference, violated the law. It's really important.

Facebook and Google are accused by the state of Texas for -- (INAUDIBLE).

Facebook has been accused with evidence by the whistleblower of enabling and allowing human trafficking on its platforms. That is a felony with jail time.

They were clearly --

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: By being complicit, you're saying?

MCNAMEE: All of these things are criminal things that require an investigation. If we're going to have laws, we have to enforce them. Not just on the poor and disadvantaged but also on the rich.

WHITFIELD: Roger McNamee, good to see you. Thank you so much.

MCNAMEE: Thanks, Fredricka. Thank you very much.

WHITFIELD: Have a great holiday season.

Still ahead, we'll have much more on our breaking news. The parents of a suspected high school shooter now in the same jail as their son. We'll have details straight ahead.

But first, today's "START SMALL, THINK BIG."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRAVIS POTTER, FOUNDER, TRACTOR BEVERAGE CO.: Farming is interesting. You learn everything from the dirt to livestock, then biology and chemistry and physics.

As we were building this, I was thinking legacy not just for our family, but everybody's families.

The reason we built this, and what Tractor is, is it's got to be good for the farmer, good for the distribution channel, and good for the consumer.

As I was developing it, I'm like, OK, I'm going to go back to how we make everything else, from scratch, from the dirt. Understanding it, like an organic ingredient, and taking that and turning it into something wonderful, delicious.

There's cherry, berry. There's orange zest or Lemon. I can use things that are more impactful on small level, like orange blossom or rose essence, to amplify the flavor of something as simple as like a lemonade or an orange drink.

And then put it in a package that's as sustainable as possible. Because it's concentrated, it's significantly more sustainable.

Our biggest year to date was last year. And the reason why it went up a ton is people started thinking about their health.

We're pretty much in every town in the country now, which is beautiful.

[13:53:43]

We've created a new standard for what beverages are for the future and that's also going to be what food is doing and farming is doing. And it's going to make everybody's life better in the long-term.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:58:45]

WHITFIELD: All right, if you're planning a winter getaway to Hawaii, you may want to pack your parka. The National Weather Service has issued a blizzard warning for part of the big island.

CNN's Allison Chinchar is live in the CNN Weather Center. She joins me right now.

Brrr. I mean, usually people go to Hawaii to escape the cold. And now they're going to be hit in the face with it.

ALLISON CHINCHAR, AMS METEOROLOGIST: I want to point out that if you go to the beaches, the lower elevation, it's still going to be mild. You'll still have sunshine there.

We're talking about the higher peaks on the big island of Hawaii. And actually, they get snow on the big island pretty much every year.

Blizzard warnings aren't as common. This is the first we've had in nearly four years on the big island. They're expecting up to about a foot total. And wind gusts about 80- to 100 miles per hour.

On the lower elevations, where it's going to be warmer, rain will be the big factor. And a lot of rain. Widespread. You're talking four to six inches. But some islands could pick up eight to 10 inches of rain.

The interesting thing is that parts of Hawaii actually have had more snow this year than areas of the lower 48, including Denver. There's only about 8 percent of the U.S. under snow cover right now in the lower 48.

[13:59:56]

But that may change in the coming days because we have not winter storm that will be sliding across the central portion of the country in the next 24 to 48 hours from now.

A winter weather alert stretches all the way from Washington State over toward the U.P. of Michigan.