Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Bob Dole, Giant Of The Senate, Dies At 98; Michigan School Shooting; At Least 16 States Identify Cases Of Omicron Variant; Daily COVID Cases Spiking Amid Winter Holiday Season; CNN Returns To Charlottesville Four Years After Deadly Rally; College Football Playoff Committee Announces Top Four Teams. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired December 05, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:23]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me this Sunday.

I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

We begin with this breaking news. Bob Dole, a giant of the U.S. Senate and a 1996 Republican presidential nominee has died at the age of 98. His family issued a statement saying Dole passed away this morning in his sleep. Dole had announced in February that he was being treated for advanced lung cancer.

His American journey took him from the plains of Kansas to the battlefields of World War II and to Capitol Hill. There he became one of the most powerful politicians of the 20th century. Wolf Blitzer takes a look back at the life and legacy of Bob Dole.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Bob Dole was the kind of politician you'll have a hard time finding in Washington these days. Much of the country only saw the cartoon image "hatchet man".

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Dole has richly earned his reputation as a hatchet man tonight.

BLITZER: Sharp-tongued partisan.

ROBERT DOLE, FORMER KANSAS REPUBLICAN SENATOR: In the (INAUDIBLE) used election promise from my opponent.

BLITZER: Pundits who didn't know better labeled him mean-spirited, but the man wasn't defined by grouchiness or gridlock. In the Senate where he spent the bulk of his political life, Dole became a master at forging compromise, working together with Democrats to cobble together bills that left the country better off. A Food Stamp bill with George McGovern, the Americans with Disabilities Act with Tom Harkin, Social Security Reform with Daniel Patrick Moynihan. DOLE: Some might find this surprising given the view that congress has

been my life, but that is not so. With all due respect to Congress, America has been my life.

BLITZER: He also was a driving force behind Washington's magnificent World War II Memorial.

DOLE: I've sort of become the unofficial greeter. I try to greet every group. I can't explain the emotion and what it means to one of these 85, 90, 95-year-old veterans who get a chance to touch and feel the World War II Memorial. It's probably the best thing that's happened to them in years. And they are going to remember for the rest of their life.

BLITZER: Dole was one of the young Americans who went off to the war. On a hillside in Italy, an explosion severely damaged his shoulder and spinal cord. Dole spent 39 months in hospitals, hovering near death more than once.

DOLE: First, I didn't think it was fair and then I looked around in the next bed and they were taking somebody away that had passed away or somebody had lost both legs or done something else so I didn't feel so sorry for myself.

BLITZER: His right hand remained virtually useless for the rest of his life. His mind, however, was fine. Voters in his home state of Kansas sent Dole to Washington for five terms where he thrived, becoming a Republican leader in the Senate.

He was President Gerald Ford's running mate in 1976 and ran for president in 1980 and 1988. Finally winning the Republican nomination in 1996.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: William Jefferson Clinton has a job for four more years.

BLITZER: It didn't work out.

DOLE: A lot more fun winning. It hurts to lose an election. But stay involved and keep fighting the good fight.

BLITZER: A 45-year political career was over. Dole moved on with grace.

MELANIA TRUMP, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Great Senator Bob Dole.

BLITZER: After the bitter 2016 primaries, Dole was the only former Republican presidential nominee to attend the convention that nominated Donald Trump.

He poignantly saluted the casket of fellow Republican but frequent rival George Bush. And to the end Dole kept the trademark humor so familiar to those who knew him and so surprising to those who did not.

DOLE: We always tried to have a little fun. My view is if it's not any fun, it's not worth doing.

You look at your life and your own reflection and I think success and failure are not opposites. It's just part of your life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: My CNN colleague Wolf Blitzer joining me right now on the phone with his reflections. Wolf, you know, what do you think Dole's legacy will be? I mean, that was a beautiful tapestry of all that he has done, but what stands out particularly?

BLITZER (via telephone): He was simply a great American, Fredricka. He was really an amazing politician. I got to know him over the years covering Washington. And I was always impressed, not only by the substance of what he had to say but the way he delivered his message, the way he spoke.

[14:04:57]

BLITZER: And as I mentioned in the obituary, his sense of humor and his colleagues always appreciated that. And I noticed that especially when he was running for president as the Republican nominee against Bill Clinton in 1996, his running mate at the time was then, you know, the former Congressman Jack Kemp from my former hometown of Buffalo, New York, former football legend quarterback for the Buffalo Bills. And I got to know both of them very well.

But it was Bob Dole who always, you know, had a sense of what was good for America. And that line, that you know we often say nowadays, Fred, you know, when politicians are negotiating and trying to come up with some sort of compromise and the hard lines -- the hardliners on the right and the hardliners on the left don't want to make a deal. The moderates usually do want to come up with some sort of compromise.

He really believed in working with the Democrats whether with Daniel Patrick Moynihan or Joe Biden who was then a senator or Tom Harkin, he always believed in that line don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

He was willing to go ahead and make concessions so that something could be done for America. And I think so many people were always grateful to him for doing that. He was really a really terrific American and a great patriot.

WHITFIELD: You underscore while he was, you know, tough, you know, trying to negotiate, you know, for legislation for and against while on Capitol Hill, it was his humor, too that would also kind of, you know, break barriers. People loved him for that.

And it's pretty remarkable how he balanced his humor with also the hardships that he faces, a World War II veteran and how he was able to kind of bridge gaps on some levels.

BLITZER: You know, people don't really appreciate. I mean, you know, we always knew him as a senator, a Senate majority leader, a Republican leader, a presidential nominee. But those 39 months he spent in hospitals as a result of being injured during World War II while fighting in Italy. Can you imagine, Fred, 39 months, all those surgeries.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

BLITZER: Losing, you know, one arm and barely able to use the other arm, and he managed to come through with that, and not only, you know, survive but he thrived as a politician, as an American patriot.

And you know, it's amazing that he lived to be 98 years old. I've seen him in recent years, and even though he was frail and getting older and older and older he was always very aware of what was going on. He always had a sense of what the news was.

He conveyed that to me, and he always had that great, as you pointed out, sense of humor even near the end. And so, you know, I just think I speak for all the journalists who covered him over the years and all the people who got to know him over the years and admired him that we've lost a great American hero, a really remarkable man, you know.

The last few weeks we also lost General Colin Powell, another great American hero. Now Bob Dole. And it's something to reflect on, to learn from and especially for some of the politicians who are operating today, to go back and take a look at Bob Dole's career.

Sure there were fights, sure he got into political arguments with the opposition, even within his own party, but you know what? He always had a sense of what was right for America and he was willing -- and he was willing to do that. And I think all of us are grateful.

And I think I speak for all of us when I want to express our deepest condolences to his wife Elizabeth Dole, to his family, to Robin Dole. And I think I speak for all of us when I say may he rest in peace and may his memory be a blessing.

WHITFIELD: Agreed on that, Wolf. You know, while he was partisan, you know, he was also willing to cross party lines, work with Democrats to pass legislation he felt was important for the country. American Disabilities Act being one of those, a very strong marker of his legacy.

How might his style of how he was able to conduct business across party lines, how might that serve as an example today to what we see on Capitol Hill -- a divisiveness, you know? What kind of advice through his living example is he giving to those members today?

BLITZER: I think the best advice was the example that he showed, that he was, yes, a fiercely partisan conservative Republican from the state of Kansas, but he was also someone who understood that in order to get things done for the American people, you have to compromise.

You have to make deals. You fight for what you believe in, but in the end you have to come up with something that's realistic, something that's going to pass.

[14:09:50] BLITZER: It's not easy to get legislation passed in the Senate and the House, especially nowadays when you have 50 Democrats in the Senate, 50 Republicans in the Senate and you have a very, very close tiny little Democratic majority in the House of Representatives.

So you need to work together if you're going to get that legislation done and create great laws for the American people. It's not going to be everything you want, but it's going to be a lot better than nothing.

And I think if people go back and study Bob Dole's history, Bob Dole's example, how he worked with Democrats, I think that they will learn something and maybe he'll have an impact on the political divisiveness that's going on right now in our country which, you know, is pretty intense as you know, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Yes. And if many have not done that thus far, maybe this is the inspiration in which to do that and go back and study, you know, his style and those of his contemporaries.

So earlier this year, I mean, Dole announced his cancer diagnosis. It was in February and it wasn't long after President Biden's inauguration that he visited Dole at his home. What do you know about their relationship?

BLITZER: It was very good. It was always good, and I'm sure that President Biden wanted to have that opportunity for all practical purposes to say goodbye because everybody knew that Bob Dole, you know, he had suffered lung cancer. It was a tough situation.

He had gone through so many illnesses over the years. It's really a miracle almost that he lived to be 98 years old but he and Joe Biden -- Biden spent, you know what, 36 years or so in the Senate, and most of that time he was in very close contact with Bob Dole.

They worked together on a lot of legislation, especially on foreign policy, on national security issues, they work together. And Joe Biden, the current president of the United States, deeply admired Bob Dole's history, you know.

When we speak of that World War II generation as the greatest generation, Bob Dole certainly exemplified. He underscored that World War II greatest generation, and Joe Biden totally appreciated that.

Sure, they had differences. Sometimes they disagreed publicly, and sometimes it was pretty vocal. But you know what? In the end they both agreed that you've got to work together, and I know having had conversations with both, you know, Joe Biden when he was a senator and Bob Dole when he was a senator, I know that they admired each other, they trusted each other, they worked together. And it was so significant. I wish there was a little bit more of that going on nowadays.

WHITFIELD: Yes. Wolf, of course, our condolences going out to Bob Dole's family and to Elizabeth Dole specifically, too. I mean what an incredible marriage and union what they exemplified on the public stage, being together throughout so much. Our hearts go out to her and the family.

Wolf Blitzer, thank you so much for your reflections. Really appreciate it.

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. We've also just received a statement from President Biden on Bob Dole's passing and he writes "A month after being sworn in as president, one of the first conversations I had with anyone outside the White House was with our dear friends Bob and Elizabeth Dole at their home in Washington. Bob had recently been diagnosed with lung cancer and I was there to offer the same support, love and encouragement that they showed me and Jill when our son Beau battled cancer.

And that the Doles have shown us over the half century that we've been friends, like all true friendships regardless of how much time has passed, we picked up right where we left off, as though it were only yesterday that we were sharing a laugh in the Senate dining room or debating the great issues of the day. Often against each other on the Senate floor.

I saw in his eyes the same light, bravery and determination I've seen so many times before. In the Senate, though we often disagreed he never hesitated to work with me or other Democrats when it mattered most.

He and Ted Kennedy came together to turn Bob's lifelong cause into the Americans with Disabilities Act granting tens of millions of American lives of greater dignity.

On the Social Security Commission he led a bipartisan effort with Pat Moynihan to ensure that every American could grow old with their basic dignity intact.

When he managed the bill to create a federal holiday in the name of Martin Luther King Jr., a bill that many in his own caucus opposed, I will never forget what he said to our colleagues. No first class democracy can treat people like second class citizens.

Another bipartisan effort, the McGovern/Dole International Food for Education and Child Nutrition Program provided school meals and food for nursing mothers and young children. It saved the lives of countless young people who would otherwise have died in infancy, and brought dignity to tens of millions of families at home and abroad."

[14:14:47]

WHITFIELD: "This work for Bob was about more than passing laws. It was written on his heart. Bob was an American stateman like few in our history, a war hero and among the greatest of the greatest generation. And to me he was also a friend whom I could look to for trusted guidance or a humorous line at just the right moment to settle frayed nerves.

I will miss my friend, but I am grateful for the times we shared and for the friendship Jill and I and our family have built with Liddy and the entire Dole family.

Bob was a man to be admired by Americans. He had an unerring sense of integrity and honor. May God bless him and may our nation draw upon his legacy of decency, dignity, good humor and patriotism for all time."

That from the president of the United States.

[14:15:41]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. New developments in the Oxford High School shooting in Michigan. Police have identified a person of interest who they believe helped the suspected shooter's parents evade capture.

The couple James and Jennifer Crumbley were found in a Detroit warehouse on Saturday after an hour's long manhunt for them. They are charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter.

The school district superintendent is now requesting an independent investigation into the deadly attack.

CNN's Athena Jones is in Pontiac, Michigan for us. So Athena, you know, what do we know about this independent investigation requested by the school district?

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Fred. Well, of course, from the very day of the shooting and from the very beginning, a lot of questions were being asked about how the school handled Ethan Crumbley and the meeting with his patients and so now you have the superintendent of the school district calling for -- or requesting an independent third-party investigation.

One thing that they brought up in what the superintendent called the school's version of events is that they walked through the two complaints and the two concerns that teachers raised the day before the shooting and the day of the shooting.

The day before the shooting when Ethan Crumbley was searching for ammunition and he was talked to by counsellors. He said that, you know, he and his mother had gone to a shooting range, that shooting sports are part of what the family does together. That is something that the school officials weren't able to confirm until they finally reached the parents on Tuesday.

Now, when it comes to Tuesday and that very disturbing drawing that a teacher reported Ethan Crumbley making of a body with bullet holes, appeared to be bleeding, of a bullet, of a gun and words like "blood everywhere". Well, Ethan Crumbley interestingly told the school, the drawing was part of a video game he was designing and informed counselors he planned to pursue video game design as a career.

And so they say these are some of the details that they're providing to show why they did not act. They say that he acted calmly, at no point did he appear that he was going to be -- going to harm himself or others, Fred.

WHITFIELD: And Athena, what more are you learning about this person of interest?

JONES: This is a man identified as 65-year-old Andrzej Sikora (ph) as you say. He's a 65-year-old immigrant from Poland. He is local artist and he has retained an attorney, but I should be clear that charges have not been brought. We did hear from the sheriff here in Oakland County that charges could come against this person who did help the Crumbleys.

This man has now contracted a lawyer. He voluntarily got in touch with law enforcement. His lawyer who CNN has spoken to said that this man didn't really know what was going on with the Crumbleys, didn't know that there was a warrant out for their arrest. And so that person's lawyer believes that there's not going to enough to charge him but we're going to have wait and see, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thank you so much, Athena Jones.

So many in Michigan are finding ways to honor the four teens killed in the shooting. Here they are: Tate Myre, Madisyn Baldwin, HANA St. Juliana, and Justin Shilling. On Saturday, the University of Michigan wore patches in their memory during the Big Ten Championship game with four hearts and the number 42, the same number Tate Myre wore for his high school team.

A football star at Oxford High School, Myre rushed the gunman in an attempt to disarm him, saving lives. The Michigan Wolverines won the game scoring 42 points.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM HARBAUGH, HEAD FOOTBALL COACH, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: I wanted to honor Tate Myre in this game. You know, dedicated the game to him, you know, for his courage and what he did in the shootings in Oxford. You know, he's a hero. We got our 42nd point up there and you know, my patch fell off, but I think God was with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The shootings have forced so many families to relive their own tragedies. Among them Richard Martinez, his son Christopher was one of six people killed during a violent rampage by a gunman near the campus of the University of California Santa Barbara back in 2014.

Richard, so good to see you. Sorry under these circumstances. It's -- it's always heartbreaking. And Richard now is a senior outreach associate for the nonprofit group Every Town For Gun Safety which advocates for gun control and against gun violence. So good to see you.

So, first of all, I'm so sorry for your loss. I mean, many times over we've talked several times over the years. Do you feel like you are reliving the loss of your son, especially when you first heard about this shooting at Oxford High School? [14:24:45]

RICHARD MARTINEZ, SENIOR OUTREACH ASSOCIATE, EVERY TOWN FOR GUN SAFETY: Well, I think about these kids, you know, Hana, Tate, Madisyn and Justin. And you know, when these things happen to young people like my son and these four kids, I mean, you just think about all the life they had ahead of them and how much, you know -- I know that Hana was supposed to play in his first high school basketball game that evening. And my son Chris was a basketball player, and -- Tate, you know, played football and my son played football, and Madisyn was an artist and she loved to draw and my son did.

And so you -- I mean, those things don't mean anything to your audience in general, but it makes these kids, you know, real and personal to me. And Justin had three jobs that he worked at after school, you know.

These -- these were people's children. These were people -- these were young people who, you know, had just spent Thanksgiving with their families and were looking forward, to you know, Christmas vacation and the holidays.

And I -- you know, I think about Sandy Hook during this time period, too, because December 14th is going to be -- you know, that was the day that that --

(CROSSTALK)

MARTINEZ: -- Sandy Hook took place.

WHITFIELD: Right. A marker, yes. All lives senselessly cut short and so many lives including yours and all the family members of all of these victims impacted forever.

You know, according to a CNN tally, I mean, this was the 32nd school shooting since August 1st. I mean, that number is astounding. If there's a way in which to explain, you know, why is this happening. I mean what does your mind hold on to in terms of why this does keep happening, especially after a Sandy Hook, after the shooting involving your son.

Collectively people say this has got to be the last time. It can't happen again, but it keeps happening again.

MARTINEZ: Well, in this particular case, if kids weren't able to get their hands on guns we wouldn't have school shootings like we had this week. Responsible gun ownership means storing guns locked, unloaded and separate from the ammunition.

And when parents and gun owners fail to uphold this responsibility and tragedy results, there needs to be accountability like we're seeing here.

WHITFIELD: And do you think that this perhaps is a starting point of holding parents accountable when we're talking about minors and accessibility to guns. That they are a new example of what is likely to come sadly if it happens again.

MARTINEZ: Yes. But it's a start. The reality is you talked about the number of school shootings just this year. And right now the shooting at -- the school shooting at Oxford High School is the second -- is the deadliest since the Santa Fe High School shooting in Texas I think two years ago. You know, we had Parkland. We had Virginia Tech. We had, you know, Columbine and Sandy Hook.

And the reality is, Fredricka, that every minute, every hour that passes without action just brings us closer to the next deadliest school shooting. And what we need to do now -- what should happen now, the prosecution of these parents is a step.

But states need to pass secure gun storage legislation and red flag laws. Some states, like California, have laws which make it a crime for a gun owner to not store their gun safely when children are in the home, and that needs to happen in other states.

It isn't currently the law in Michigan, and there needs to be outreach to parents from schools providing information about safe storage, and it needs to be a requirement by law.

WHITFIELD: Yes. And as painful as it is, your advocacy Richard Martinez is certainly an impetus and hopefully helping to move all of this in the right direction so that we don't have to keep seeing each other to talk and reflect on the painful loss of your son Christopher and the painful loss that too many families enduring right now.

[14:29:56]

WHITFIELD: We appreciate your time and your advocacy. Thank you so much, Richard Martinez.

MARTINEZ: Thank you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:34:40]

WHITFIELD: Another four states are confirming cases of the new COVID variant Omicron. That brings the number up to 16 and chances are this map will look a lot more red in the coming days, but it is the Delta variant driving this chart. The country is back to averaging 1,500 deaths every day, and that line is on a steep climb right now.

[14:35:01]

The majority of those deaths, however, are still coming among the unvaccinated.

I want to bring in now Dr. Richina Bicette-McCain, medical director at Baylor College of Medicine.

Good to see you, Doctor. So, for the first time in months, the U.S. is averaging now 100,000 cases a day. We're seeing 1,500 daily deaths and the number is climbing. Can a push for vaccinations alone tamp down these numbers? What's it behind it you see?

DR. RICHINA BICETTE-MCCAIN, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: A push for vaccinations can definitely help but we also have to push for changes in behavior. I know that there are a lot of businesses that have done away with capacity restrictions. Social distancing for patrons are a thing of the past. And we're seeing things almost get back to what they were before the pandemic, although our case load is nowhere near where it needs to be for our behaviors to start changing just yet.

WHITFIELD: So, holiday get-togethers, you know, after Thanksgiving. Do you think that's a contributing factor to why we're seeing a spike again?

BICETTE-MCCAIN: Holiday get-togethers may be a contributing factor, but I think holiday travel definitely has something to do with the spike. We also know that the weather is changing, and changes in weather can lead to changes in behavior as well. People are moving indoors and being inside is a higher risk for transmission of COVID. People aren't wearing masks as much as they used to in the past. So, all of those things together are contributing to the high case numbers.

WHITFIELD: So, Moderna says it should know more about how its vaccine will respond to Omicron within the next seven to 10 days. So, what would happen next if they find that it's not as effective as they has hoped - as effective as they had hoped?

BICETTE-MCCAIN: Well, you know, Fred, the positive thing about the Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines is that these mRNA vaccines are actually quite easy to tweak and to change. If they find that the Omicron variant is evading immunity by vaccines, what they can potentially do is sequence that spike protein on the Omicron variant and insert it into the vaccine similar to what they did when the vaccines were initially developed.

WHITFIELD: All right. I like your optimism. I hope that, too, is contagious.

Dr. Richina --

BICETTE-MCCAIN: You know what, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Yes, go ahead.

BICETTE-MCCAIN: I will say that me being vaccinated and boosted, although Omicron is potentially going to be one of our most formidable opponents yet, I do feel safe with the vaccines that we have right now.

WHITFIELD: Very good.

All right. I'll take it.

Dr. Richina Bicette-McCain, good to see you. Thank you so much.

BICETTE-MCCAIN: Bye-bye.

WHITFIELD: All right. Still ahead, a new Special Report.

CNN is returning to the scene of the deadly Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville and taking you inside the events of the day.

We'll bring that to you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:20]

WHITFIELD: All right. Four years after the violent and deadly Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, CNN is returning to the scene with a Special Report that takes you inside what happened.

And talks to a defend - or to defendants, rather, in a federal civil suit including Richard Spencer about their roles that weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of that juvenile ironic Nazi humor, it's just so over. And I cringe when I even think about it now.

ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think I said this a couple of times, but you have said you have regrets.

RICHARD SPENCER, EX-LEADER OF ALT-RIGHT: Mm-hmm.

REEVE: But every time I ask you to explain those regrets.

SPENCER: I have explained them.

REEVE: It's framed in terms of I was hanging out --

SPENCER: I made those decisions, Elle.

REEVE: -- with losers.

SPENCER: I made those decisions.

REEVE: You're like I let myself get dragged down by this filth, but those were your people. Those are your guys. Why don't you take responsibility for them?

SPENCER: I -- I have.

REEVE: If they wanted to be you and they went into the street and beat people up, what does that say to you?

SPENCER: Well, you seem to just want to -- your entire point here is just to prove that I'm like a piece of (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and why don't you just accept it.

I mean, look, Elle, I don't -- I'm not here to be insulted.

Maybe when someone is actually honest and expresses a regret you should probably allow them to do that as opposed to jumping on their (EXPLETIVE DELETED) back, you know.

REEVE: Do you regret injecting such explicit intense racism into the American politics?

SPENCER: I did not inject that in there. If anything, I injected a kind of ideology that could, you know, articulate something that's already there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Wow. That was very perplexing and confusing, but enlightening, too.

CNN's Elle Reeve is a reporter that we saw in that clip and she puts this documentary together for tonight's CNN Special Report.

Elle, good to see you.

So, this -- that was a remarkable moment because we're hearing from him, and yours was award-winning reporting when you were with Vice News, when you helped show the world what was happening in Charlottesville.

And now, as a member of the CNN family, you're going back, retracing some of those steps, talking to key players including him and while he's revealing, he's talking about where the frustration of his regret. At the same time, it sounds like he doesn't want to fully expound on what he was thinking and feeling at the time, the power of his position and even the responsibility of reflecting on it today.

Do I kind of get that right?

[14:45:05]

REEVE: Yes, for sure. And that's true of several people involved -- several of the defendants. Publicly, they want to say the violence wasn't their fault. And what they did wrong was depending on people who were ultimately unreliable.

But privately, behind the scenes, some of them will say, why did I do that? One of them told me he had been asking himself when he saw people talking about violence in the lead-up to the rally, why didn't he say something, why didn't he just tell them to stop.

WHITFIELD: And is it why? Is it - is a reflection of why did I do this now because they are all looking at, you know, the legal roads ahead, looking at, you know, prosecution or culpability or being held accountable and that's the why now? Or is it really a consciousness? Is it really a reflection of, you know, I'm a changed person now and now I'm reflect on my actions? REEVE: Ooh, that's tough. You can never really know what's inside someone's heart.

But a lot of them, they don't want to grapple with that. They don't want to believe that they were racist. Some of them say I'm not racist. I just want something special for white people I mean, it's very difficult to bridge that ideologically.

WHITFIELD: Wow.

REEVE: A lot of them do say, like they admit that the violence was bad, and they shouldn't have put their faith in people who wanted to do violence, who wanted to have a brawl in the street.

WHITFIELD: So, a jury did, you know, recently find Richard Spencer and other organizers of the deadly Unite the Right rally liable for the violence that broke out in Charlottesville, awarding the plaintiff around $25 million. And one has to wonder if, you know, trying to pick up the pieces after that might also be the impetus why he and others are even willing to talk about it or reflect publicly. How difficult was it for you to be able to get him to talk, to sit down with you?

REEVE: Well, I've talked to all of those people for years and years and years now, and one of them even said to me it was like we were in a war together, just on opposite sides. And so, at this point, many of them, they are difficult people who burn a lot of bridges and sometimes I wonder if I'm one of the longest-term relationships they have. So, at this point, when I call them, and I say like talk to me. Usually, they say yes.

WHITFIELD: And that's what makes it so extraordinary and your role and participation in all these years because you've helped, to you know, lift the curtain, reveal an awful lot and at the same time even by revealing this, there are people who are still willing to share with you, you know, and trust you with their motivations and -- and it's extraordinary.

So, I cannot wait to see this -- this evening's hour that you're going to be sharing with us because you have helped to enlighten so many people, and you'll continue to do so tonight.

Elle Reeve, thank you so much.

REEVE: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: And of course, you can watch Elle's new documentary "White Power on Trial Return to Charlottesville" tonight at 9:00 p.m.

And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:52:45]

WHITFIELD: All right. The stage is set. The College Football Playoff committee released its top four teams just a few hours ago. And at number one, the Alabama Crimson Tide fresh off at dominating performance last night in the SEC Championship. They will face off against the number four ranked Cincinnati Bearcats in the Cotton Bowl.

Number two, the Michigan Wolverines will take on the number three ranked Georgia Bulldogs in the Orange Bowl.

And the winners of those two matchups will compete for the College Football Championship Game on January 10th at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis.

All right. In Houston, a plumber doing repair work in a megachurch found an amazing catch, a lot of money, cash and checks found inside the walls. News of the find became public when a man claiming to be the plumber called into a Houston radio show. They were discussing valuable items. Listeners have discovered.

Lakewood Church confirmed the finding in a statement provided to CNN. They did not provide any additional information because of the ongoing investigation.

Police believe the discovery is connected to a massive 2014 theft at Pastor Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church.

CNN reported at the same time that about $600,000 was taken from a church safe. Well, the funds came from contributions given over one weekend in March of that year.

All right. Still ahead, President Biden gearing up for a critical phone call on Tuesday with Russian President Putin as U.S. intel reveals Moscow could launch offensive within months against Ukraine. But first, this week's "staying well."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. AARON BAGGISH, CARDIOLOGIST: I got my introduction to so-called Nordic walking or trail running with poles when I was spending time in Europe last year and saw some of the best athletes in the world there running with poles.

JACK PAVLOCK, NORDIC WALKER: I use my poles because four years ago, I had a minor stroke, so my walking, my balance isn't the best.

BAGGISH: It's really a good exercise for anyone. It turns out that when we go from simply walking to engaging our arms and our core muscles, we burn probably 25 percent to 50 percent more calories and we're much less likely to fall or injure ourselves as we literally have four points of stability.

[14:55:05]

The best way for people to start Nordic walking is to simply put ski poles in their hands and drag them without engaging them. And what people find is that there's a natural arm swing. And once they understand that arm swing and bring the poles into the movement purposefully, it becomes a way to move faster and more efficiently. PAVLOCK: They give you momentum which is helpful.

BAGGISH: Safer, better for you and actually it's fun. The old adage is old people walk safely with canes, why not have two canes. And why not have two canes that are fashionable and not only are there for stability but actually help propel you and make you more efficient and give you a better workout.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)