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Stricter Travel Restrictions to Start Monday Amid New COVID Variant Omicron; Bob Dole, Giant of the Senate and GOP Presidential Nominee, Dies at 98; School Superintendent Seeks Independent Probe into Michigan High School Shooting; The Risk of School Shooting Drills; Biden Administration to Announce Diplomatic Boycott of the Beijing Olympics; Republican Lawmakers Embracing Alternate COVID Reality. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired December 05, 2021 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST (voice-over): Politicians on both sides of the aisle paying tribute to an absolute titan of 20th century politics.

BOB DOLE, FORMER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Some may find this surprising given the view that Congress has been my life. But that is not so. With all due respect to Congress, America has been my life.

MATTINGLY: The Michigan school district where four students were shot and killed now requesting its own independent investigation.

SHERIFF MICHAEL BOUCHARD, OAKLAND COUNTY, MICHIGAN: We have a process. If there's any kind of concerning behavior or threat. That did not happen.

MATTINGLY: The U.S. weighing what's next as the country grapples with the new COVID variant, rise in cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: The next six months really depend on how we mobilize together to do the things that we know work.

MATTINGLY: Democratic Representative Ilhan Omar says she's certain Republican counterpart Lauren Boebert will face punishment for her anti-Muslim remarks.

REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): This kind of language, this kind of hate cannot be condoned.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: I'm Phil Mattingly in for Pamela Brown. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Travelers coming into the United States, well, they're about to run into a new list of tighter restrictions and that takes effect in just a few hours at the stroke of midnight. It's an effort to limit the spread of the new Omicron variant. All inbound travelers must test negative for COVID-19 and in the past day before they're allowed to enter the U.S. That includes the vaccinated and includes American citizens.

CNN's Nadia Romero joins with more. Nadia, these stricter travel rules come as U.S. COVID-19 cases are absolutely on the rise again now averaging more than 100,000 cases per day, the highest in two months. What does this mean kind of for the overall landscape right now?

NADIA ROMERO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Phil, this is exactly what the Biden administration was trying to prevent, this winter surge. So you already knew that we're going to have holiday travel. We just hit a pandemic record of Thanksgiving travelers going through airports according to the TSA last weekend. Now we have this new variant Omicron that is showing up here in the U.S. and dozens of other countries.

So let's break this down from travel bans and travel restrictions. Travel policy will begin for the Biden administration, a new one starting tomorrow. So if you're an international traveler trying to make your way to the U.S., you have to show a negative COVID-19 test the day before you travel. You also have to be fully vaccinated. There are no restrictions for domestic travelers as of yet but Dr. Anthony Fauci says they're reviewing those travel policies on a daily basis including a travel ban.

A travel ban is in place for eight Southern Africa countries including South African. South African scientists were the first to identify the Omicron variant but we know that that variant is all over the world now and in European countries and here in the U.S. as well. And that sparked some international criticism. The head of the U.N. calling it a travel apartheid, and many questioning why there aren't travel restrictions for other countries that have this variant and why the U.S. is just simply looking at these African countries? Here is what Dr. Anthony Fauci have to say when asked about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, PRESIDENT BIDEN'S CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER: That ban was done at a time when we're really in the dark. We had no idea what was going on except that there seemed to have been an explosion of cases of Omicron in South Africa. So when the ban was put on, it was put to give us time to figure out just what is going on. Now as you mentioned, as we're getting more and more information about cases in our own country and worldwide, we're looking at that very carefully on a daily basis.

Hopefully, we'll be able to lift that ban within a quite reasonable period of time. I mean, we all feel very badly about the hardship that that might have put upon not only South Africa but the other African countries and for that reason in real time, literally on a daily basis, we're reevaluating that policy.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

ROMERO: And Dr. Fauci says that this is a very fluid situation, that the policies are changing as data comes in and we just simply don't have enough data yet on this new variant and we don't know enough about it like we do, let's say, the Delta variant that is still the most populous one that you'll find across the U.S. -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: Nadia Romero, more data coming in every single day. Can't come fast enough. Thanks so much.

Now I want to talk further about the new U.S. travel rules with Tori Emerson Barnes, she's the executive vice president of Public Affairs and Policy at the U.S. Travel Association. Now it's a group that represents 1100 groups in all parts of the travel industry.

Tori, you heard what Dr. Fauci said about the ban against the eight Southern African nations and that it's being reevaluated every single day. You guys were pretty unequivocal when the ban came out that you didn't think it was the right policy. Do you think that policy should end immediately?

TORI EMERSON BARNES, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS AND POLICY, U.S. TRAVEL ASSOCIATION: Absolutely. (INAUDIBLE).

MATTINGLY: We're having a little bit of difficulty hearing Tori.

[20:05:02]

We're going to try and get back to her because this is obviously a very important story and their perspective here matters a lot. And obviously this is happening in just a matter of hours.

Also happening tonight, the nation honoring long-serving U.S. senator and Republican presidential nominee Bob Dole who died earlier today at the age of 98. And his American journey took him from the plains of Kansas to World War II Europe to Capitol Hill where he became one of the most powerful and recognizable American political figures over the last half century.

President Biden released a deeply touching statement memorializing Dole, calling him, quote, "an American statesman like few in the history, a war hero among the greatest of the greatest generation, and to me he was also a friend whom I could look to for trusted guidance or humorous line at just the right moment to settle frayed nerves. I will miss my friend."

Former president George W. Bush said in part, "I will always remember Bob's salute to my late dad at the Capitol. And now we Bushes salute Bob and give thanks for his life of principled service."

And this, a short time ago from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): For our country, it was a tremendous loss to lose Bob Dole. He's a towering figure, a great leader. He and Elizabeth Dole just crossed the aisle, crossed every divide in our country to bring people together. It is a big loss. He fought for our country on the battlefield in World War II, he fought for what he believed in in the Congress and the House and in the Senate, as a candidate for president and even in retirement. Just a real blessing to our country. A sad loss.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: CNN senior political analyst and senior editor at "The Atlantic" Ron Brownstein is here to talk about Senator Dole's legacy.

And Ron, you covered then Senator Dole during the 1988 presidential campaign. I think it's fair to say that is a very different era in American politics. I knew that campaign from reading 15 times "What It Takes" by Richard Ben Cramer, and inside that book, I think I reread probably 30 times Bob Dole's experience in World War II, how he was wounded and then what he did to recover. What do you remember from covering that campaign and Senator Dole?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first, I mean, that Richard Ben Cramer analysis of Bob Dole is some of the greatest political writing ever by someone not named Robert Caro so I would commend it to everyone for a better understanding of Dole.

I mean, Dole was just a figure of a kind we don't have any more in many different ways. I mean, he was an embodiment of the greatest generation, enormous suffering he went through and the perseverance and determination to recover, to build back his body and his life in the '40s and '50s. I mean, there was that cigar box that they, you know, they put out of the drugstore at his hometown of Russell, Kansas, where they collected money to help pay for his hospital bills after World War II.

And I remember I think I am right that in the week that he announced for president in 1996 they brought out the original box at an event in Russell, Kansas. And you know, he started off in Washington as a fairly conventional even kind of hard-edged partisan, I mean, talked about Democrat wars in 1976, you know, on the ticket but really evolved in the '70s and '80s to be one of the great -- and '90s to be one of the greatest deal makers and kind of consensus builders that the Senate had seen, right there with, you know, contemporary Teddy Kennedy in many of those years.

And as a job description, Phil, that just doesn't exist anymore. The ability to build coalitions across party lines simply just isn't possible in the same way that it was then and he was a towering figure as Nancy Pelosi said.

MATTINGLY: Yes. No, it's a great point. It's something I've been thinking a lot about today but also when other lawmakers of his stature have passed. You know, today Senator Mitch McConnell praised Dole for, quote, "conservative victories" and big bipartisan achievements. It just seems like both of those things, to some degree, traditional conservativism at least over the last five years, and bipartisanship are all gone now.

I don't want to be the like everything was better back then and nostalgic and all those types of things. But it is, it's a very different moment now in politics. BROWNSTEIN: Well, things are more fluid back then at least. I mean,

you know, you can debate whether they were better but they were certainly more fluid. The lines between the parties were not as absolute or as rigged, and the regional divides weren't as rigged. I mean, there were Democrats from North Dakota and South Dakota and Nebraska and Republicans from the coasts, and the ability to get things done particularly in this long era basically from the late '30s until the early '90s required legislators who could build coalitions that did not exist without them and Dole was brilliant at doing that and willing to do that on issues like the Voting Rights Act, which he played a critical part working with Joe Biden in reauthorizing in the early 1980s.

Every Republican has just voted against in the Senate reauthorizing the Voting Rights Act and he did this on many issues. He raised taxes to reduce the deficit after the Reagan tax cuts blew a bigger hole in the deficit than people expected.

[20:10:04]

He was willing to kind of make an independent judgment outside of the lines of, you know, just simply party loyalty plus he was, as you know, a brilliant (INAUDIBLE) wit. Unless my memory is totally screwy, I was on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert, Bob Novak, as one of the two questionnaires on the day that Bob Dole passed Hubert Humphrey at that point as the most frequent guest ever in January 1994, and I still remember him lingering for like an hour after the show was over with just absolutely kind of brilliant withering putdowns of everybody in both parties. And of course, you remember his famous line at I think at the Reagan funeral when he described Ford, Carter and Nixon as see no evil, hear no evil, and evil.

MATTINGLY: Evil. Yes. Actually I want to ask more about that one because it was an interesting thing. He was well-known to be like one of the funniest members of the Senate when you would do polling of staffers and members. Sharp wit. Dark at times. But even though he lost to President Clinton in 1996, was always a good sport, made fun of himself on "Saturday Night Live." I think he did a late-night show literally the day after 1998.

You know, when he was done with his career, he was doing Pepsi commercials, Dunkin' Donuts commercials, he did a Viagra commercial appearing in this commercial that you're looking at right now which actually was huge for Viagra becoming more mainstream at the time.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

MATTINGLY: I guess one of the things is, does it all kind of speak to this idea of how Americans trusted him to some degree even though he lost by a large margin in the presidential race?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, look, people respected Dole enormously even though he lost by a large margin. You know, he, you know, he -- Clinton was able to structure that race as future versus past and Dole was also sort of clouded by the response to the Gingrich revolution in which he was very much of an unwilling participant but there is never any question of kind of Americans and I think certainly in Washington the respect for Dole as an individual, not only for what he had become but in the way he had evolved beyond his, you know, his -- I mean, he genuinely was in later parts of his career a statesman.

I think it surprised a lot of people how enthusiastically he endorsed Trump in 2016 which kind of was, you know, out of character for kind of the way he had approached politics from the '70s through the '90s probably, but he was someone who, you know, who would -- who really kind of you felt that, you know, he was going to make an honest assessment of each issue without being totally locked in in the same way we are now, you know, by these kind of rigged partisan divides.

And the Viagra thing was really interesting because at that point, you know, people didn't talk about those issues. And that was like the ad itself, you know, kind of noted that and it was kind of a breakthrough. Then later of course he made fun of himself on it, in his ads for Pepsi. He really was of a kind we just don't have anymore. A legislator who deeply believed in what he cared about, but also kind of understood as Lyndon Johnson and (INAUDIBLE), at the end of the day, they were all Americans and your enemy today may be your ally tomorrow.

That is a world that we just don't inhabit anymore. It's just kind of more rigged, more unbending, more absolutist, and it is a loss with the kind of legislators like Dole and Kennedy and McCain that simply are not with us anymore.

MATTINGLY: Yes, as you can see by all the statements coming out from every corner of every party today.

Ron Brownstein, thanks as always, sir.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks, Phil.

MATTINGLY: All right.; Former president Barack Obama tweeting his statement on the death of Senator Bob Dole. Obama writing, "Senator Dole was a war hero, a political leader and a statesman with a career and a demeanor harkening back to a day when members of the greatest generation abided by a certain code, putting country over party. Our thoughts are with Elizabeth and the Dole family."

And new tonight, he helped the school shooting suspect's parents when they were wanted for hours by the police. Now he's come forward. We'll tell you when he's saying about the couple.

Plus, millions of students and staff have taken part in school shooting drills but some say those drills may actually create some deadly situations.

And we're calling out those Republican lawmakers going all in on pandemic denial.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:18:23]

MATTINGLY: New travel rules take effect at midnight tonight. All inbound travelers must test negative for COVID-19 before they're allowed in the U.S.

I want to bring back Tory Anderson Barnes, she's the executive vice president public affairs and policy at the U.S. Travel Association.

And Tori, I want to get right to it. You obviously, there is a ton of members in every kind of facet of the travel industry here. With these new rules, what you're hearing from members, are they ready for this to take effect in four-ish hours?

BARNES: You know, it seems that we'll be able to manage the new testing requirement and very much support the extension of the mask mandate through March of 2022, but we -- I would say that, you know, generally speaking, we need to look at an individual's risk assessment. We need to make sure that we're not doing wholesale country travel bans and we really need to avoid any type of accelerated type of quarantine or any other travel restriction that isn't really looking at the individual risk of a person.

So, you know, we need to figure out how to balance not only the economy and the health concerns simultaneously but we also need to think about making sure that we can still welcome international travelers here to the U.S.

MATTINGLY: Well, you had something in your statement when the change on testing policy was announced, you noted it's critically important that we communicate this policy change clearly. That seems obvious to some degree but it also seemed to have a point there. Do you feel like this was communicated clearly? Do you feel like you guys had the time given how fast this seemed to come into play?

[20:20:03]

BARNES: You know, I think there are still going to be a lot more work to do. I think the whole of the industry needs to be making sure that we can communicate. Brand USA is an important extension. They're sort of a destination marketing organization for the U.S. They communicate internationally. We've got obviously the State Department and a variety of other voices beyond just the travel industry.

And so that's why the shared communication really is so important because we're seeing different travel restrictions obviously across the whole globe and that's again why we -- getting down to one type of requirement where we have the testing mechanism and a vaccine mandate. You know, that's really important but we can't just have, you know, places where we are just restricting travel to.

On November 8th when we finally reopened to the rest of the globe, it was really important for the travel industry and quite frankly for the country to start to recover from an economic standpoint. So we really think that with the vaccine requirement, with the testing mechanism in place, we need to look again just at an individual risk and we need to be able to communicate this and we need -- we always need as much time as we can when things are going to pivot.

MATTINGLY: Yes. It's not always time you guys have. But I know it's been a busy last couple of days.

Tori Emerson Barnes, U.S. Travel Association, thanks so much for taking the time. We really appreciate it.

BARNES: Thanks so much for having me.

MATTINGLY: All right. Now to new developments in the shooting rampage at a Michigan high school that left four students dead and another student charged with their murders. The man authorities believed might have helped Ethan Crumbley's parents duck police has identified himself. His attorney says he is Andrzej Sikora, a 65-year-old Polish immigrant. He let the Crumbleys use his workspace but says he was unaware they were wanted. After learning of their arrest, he says he contacted police. As of now, Sikora has not been charged with a crime.

In a letter to parents, the school district's superintendent reveals new details about the events leading up to Tuesday's mass shooting at the Oxford High School, and promises a third-party investigation into how those red flags were handled.

CNN's senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elie Honig joins me now.

And Elie, I think this has been the issue that I've had the most questions about, I think, once the parents at least were detained to some degree in terms of the school. The school administration. The letter from the superintendent says the school district and its officials, they've been criticized for not answering questions over the course of the last several days. How much do you feel like that's a legal strategy to some degree?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Phil, there is definitely a legal angle to it. I think the school is anticipating, and they should anticipate that at a minimum they're going to be sued. They're going to be -- have lawsuits filed against them seeking monetary damages and the question is going to be, was the school negligent? That's a fairly low standard. That just means did they fail to take due care to protect their students?

And this is really appears to be a fairly egregious case when you look at the student's conduct, when you hear about these drawings and the things that he was writing, which the school, the teachers found and took -- and didn't take sufficient action on. I think the school is in a real tough spot here. So I do think they're trying to take care of potential legal liability here.

MATTINGLY: Is there anything on the criminal side? You know, we talked to the Oakland County sheriff yesterday. Obviously he had a news conference yesterday. He said they were looking into everything right now. Is there any area where there could be criminal issues that school officials or administrators may face here?

HONIG: I think that's very unlikely, Phil. I think, look, the charge against the parents was unusual. I think it's very well supported because they themselves I think were most directly responsible for helping this child obtain the gun, for, you know, encouraging him to essentially blow off the school when he got caught searching for ammunition. I think there is a strong case, unusual but strong case against the parents.

I think it's probably a bridge too far to be thinking about criminal charges against the school. They could have civil liability but I don't see criminal liability for the school here.

MATTINGLY: Now that you mentioned the parents. The Crumbleys' defense attorneys say the couple fully intended to turn themselves in. Here is that statement in yesterday's virtual arraignment. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHANNON SMITH, ATTORNEY FOR JENNIFER AND JAMES CRUMBLEY: Last night and throughout the day, we were in contact with our clients. They were scared. They were terrified. They were not at home. They were figuring out what to do, getting finances in order, but our clients were absolutely going to turn themselves in. It was just a matter of logistics and all the prosecution had to do was communicate with me about it.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: What do you make of that claim?

HONIG: Wow, do I not buy that, Phil, for several reasons. First of all, when you are wanted for manslaughter, you don't get to take your time and get your finances in order. I'm not sure how withdrawing $4,000 cash, by the way, is getting their finances in order. It makes absolutely no sense. You don't have the luxury of surrendering at your leisure.

[20:25:03]

And also, Phil, it's worth noting this is going to hurt the parents in the case against them. The district attorney, the prosecutor, has said publicly that she's considering additional charges against them relating to their flight. Also really important, when a prosecutor tries these parents for involuntarily manslaughter, I've been in this situation, you stand in front of the jury and say, why did they take off? Do innocent people -- do people who are not guilty take off? Of course not. It shows you that they were guilty. It shows you that they knew of it. And so that can be really powerful evidence in front of a jury.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it seems to be the case. Hiding in a warehouse with fully planning to turn themselves seems to contradict itself a little bit.

Elie Honig, as always, my friend, thanks so much.

HONIG: Thanks, Phil. MATTINGLY: All right. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. And up next, are

school shooting drills actually putting kids in danger? One expert says yes, and I'll ask her about it live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:30:20]

MATTINGLY: To Michigan where new developments in the high school shooting that left four students dead and another student charged with their murders. The man authorities believed might have helped Ethan Crumbley's parents duck police has identified himself. His attorney says he is Andrzej Sikora, a 65-year-old Polish immigrant. He let the Crumbleys use his workspace but says he didn't know they were wanted. After learning of their arrest, he says he contacted police. And as of now, Sikora has not been charged with a crime.

Now the four young victims in Michigan never knew a world without the threat of gun violence at school. And it's a place that should be, should be safe. Like the rest of their generation, they probably took part in dozens of active shooter drills over the years. Even preschoolers are put through these potentially traumatizing rituals to prepare for what may come. My next guest says we're doing it all wrong.

Jillian Peterson is the president of the Violence Project and is professor of criminology at Hamline University. She's also the author of "The Violence Project: How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic."

Welcome, Jillian. Thanks for taking the time. I want to start with some of your research. You found that there is, quote, "no exact profile" of a mass school shooter but there are some predictors. 91 percent are students or former students in the schools they attack. 87 percent were in crisis before the shootings. 80 percent suicidal before the shootings. 78 percent leaked the plans ahead of the attack.

I think one of the things, and you've talked about this, but because 90 percent of these young people exclusively white males at this point are students or former students, do the active shooter drills actually kind of give them a blueprint of where to go in the event of an attack?

JILLIAN PETERSON, PRESIDENT, THE VIOLENCE PROJECT: That's something that we're really concerned about. And it's something that's really hard to study but I think the idea behind things like active shooter drills and increased security is that the perpetrators of these shootings are outsiders coming in to attack the school, but when you realize that most of these perpetrators are insiders, they're students of the school, they're classmates, they're students moving in and out of these hallways every day and they're running through these active shooter drills along with everyone else over and over again.

So there have been cases where that insider knowledge of how the school is going to respond has actually increased casualties rather than decreased them. MATTINGLY: Now you also say, in addition to some other potential

flaws, these drills can actually trigger a dangerous fascination in vulnerable students. Tell me more about what you're seeing there.

PETERSON: Yes, there is a few concerns about drills. So one is that they can make students feel really afraid. They can increase anxiety. They can be traumatizing especially ones that use things like live action role play. But we also know that school shootings are socially contagious. So when one happens, others happen. That shooters tend to study other shooters, get ideas from other shooters.

So there is some concern for me as a psychologist that if we're running young people through these scenarios over and over and over again, could we be normalizing this type of violence and actually increasing their fascination with it?

MATTINGLY: So, I mean, given what you're laying out here, what's the answer here? School shootings are a reality. Is the answer to do no preparation, no training, no drilling for the students? How do you kind of work through that?

PETERSON: Absolutely not. You want that if the worst-case scenario happens, you want schools to be prepared. You especially want the adults in the school to be very aware of the protocols and there are ways to do drills that really minimize anxiety for students. But more importantly, we have been focusing so much on drilling these students, on making them prepare for their own deaths.

I'm trying to minimize casualties and react to a shooting once it already happens. And our research has shown there are actually really tangible things we can be doing to prevent a shooting from happening in the first place, and it's probably a better place to be focusing our resources.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's so interesting. It's sad that we have to have this discussion, but it is a very real discussion I think every parent right now is thinking about.

Jillian Peterson, thanks so much for sharing.

PETERSON: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

MATTINGLY: All right. And breaking news, right now, the Biden administration is expected to announce that no U.S. government officials will attend the 2022 Beijing Olympics. We'll go live to the White House when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:39:13]

MATTINGLY: We have breaking news. Just into CNN. Several sources now telling CNN that the Biden administration is expected to announce this week, a diplomatic boycott of the Beijing Olympics. Now the move comes amid calls for more pressure to be put on China over human rights concerns. CNN's Joe Johns is at the White House. And Joe, what are we learning

right now?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Phil, we did know that President Biden was under pressure from political sources including in fact the speaker of the House up on Capitol Hill to use the Olympics in some way to send a message to China about human rights abuses, and we know also that going all the way back to 1980, U.S. presidents have used the Olympics in some way to try to send a message including Jimmy Carter's boycotting of the Olympics, and not allowing the athletes to go.

[20:40:06]

Well, now we know what President Biden is going to do. CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports tonight that what the president has decided to do is to institute a diplomatic boycott, which means U.S. government officials will not participate in the 2022 Olympic Games in Beijing but what this does is allows the athletes, the U.S. athletes to continue to participate, those athletes who have made the Olympic team, because as many people know, a lot of Olympic athletes get exactly one shot to participate in the Olympic Games.

And the president is not taking that away from them by doing this. So the news tonight from CNN's Kaitlan Collins is that the president is instituting a diplomatic boycott for the Beijing games, which means U.S. officials will not participate -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: Yes, Joe, important point. Very different from 1980 but still absolutely sending a message, one lawmaker has been calling for.

Joe Johns, at the White House, thanks so much.

Now there are a number of issues that have contributed to some of the pressure that has been driving the White House about this potential diplomatic boycott over the course of the last several weeks. Human rights issues in particular involving the Uighurs in Xinjiang, treatment of democracy advocates in Hong Kong, new aggressive military maneuvers aimed at Taiwan. And just recently questions about the treatment of a Chinese tennis champion who has had a few rare appearances on video since she accused a top Chinese government official of sexual assault.

I spoke with former Wimbledon champ Rennae Stubbs on the tennis world's mounting pressure on China and how it could impact the Olympics.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Rennae, thanks so much for taking the time. I think it's a very important story. Look, we saw what the WTA did. Why is the ATP not following their lead and making a statement here?

RENNAE STUBBS, WIMBLEDON AND U.S. OPEN CHAMPION: Well, I mean, I guess your question is as good as mine. They've been put under a bit of pressure over the last couple of days certainly from some well-known people in tennis in general. Have asked the question of that was kind of a poor effort from them, with the statement that they made. It was a kind of a statement without making a statement.

So I think the ATP certainly has a little bit of questions. We need some answers from them about being a little bit stronger because they also have a tremendous amount of tennis events in China so the ball is really as you said at the start. It's really in their court to stand beside us in solidarity with the WTA, with the Women's Tennis Association. So we'll see if they step up a little bit more to the plate in the next couple of days.

MATTINGLY: So I have a pretty good idea to answer this question but you actually understand the dynamics because you've lived them and within them for your career. What are the consequences of the ATP deciding to pull out a tournament from China? What were the consequences of the WTA taking their stand?

STUBBS: Well, I mean, money. I mean, let's face it. That's what it comes down to. Obviously the WTA now has to find a tremendous amount of money in sponsors to be able to put on events at that time of the year. Obviously will. We hope that the Chinese government does what we have asked, which is do an investigation into the allegations that Peng Shuai has made. Certainly we want to hear from Peng Shuai. We want to know that she's safe and she's not -- this is not the stuff that we see from state media.

We want to see her actually living free and she's fine and safe, and until then the WTA suspended all their tournaments in China. And so the ATP really should step up to the plate as well. And if that is the case and we'd be pulled out of China completely, then we need to find cities and sponsors that want to put on those event that we will be pulling out of in China. And we have up to 10 or 11 events in China. The men have a tremendous amount of events in China as well. So they're going to have to find cities and sponsors and places to put those events on the calendar.

MATTINGLY: You know, you mentioned the money issue. Obviously logistical issues as well. I know players are always concerned about that. To broaden it out a little bit, you know, there's also been a lot of pleasure on the International Olympic Committee to say something to some degree.

STUBBS: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Obviously the Olympics are quite literally in the country in a couple of months. Is money the exact reason they're not saying anything? They've probably been the weakest of everyone when it comes to their statements and what they're actually saying here.

STUBBS: Yes. I think the IOC has sort of a lot of questions to answer really because I think they sort of became a bit of a propaganda when they put out that video of her. It was like, OK, she's doing a video but really what -- is she under duress? Where is this video taken? So yes, absolutely, the IOC has some big questions to answer, as well. But of course it comes down to money. This is what it's about really. Beijing is only a month away for the Winter Olympics so they're definitely going to be asked this question ad nauseum over the next few weeks.

[20:45:04]

And we definitely want to hear -- they need to be more powerful (INAUDIBLE) on the WTA. I mean, I'm so proud of the WTA in so many ways because they're being the big girls in the room when it comes to this situation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: I want to bring in our next guest, Gordon Chang, the author of "The Coming Collapse of China."

And Gordon, we've been expecting this to some degree over the course of the last week or two. Lawmakers in both parties have been calling for it not recently for months if you're Mitt Romney and Speaker Nancy Pelosi. What do you make about the message that's being sent with the potential diplomatic boycott of the Beijing Olympics?

GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "THE COMING COLLAPSE OF CHINA": Well, first of all, this is a step in the right direction and it's a powerful message because people, you know, if you go back two months, people would not have thought that this would have occurred. But also this is a dynamic situation. And especially when you apply to Peng Shuai, anything can happen. So I don't think that we can say for 100 percent sure that the Olympics are going to be held on February 4th. Probably they will be but global opinion has changed very fast in the space of about two weeks.

MATTINGLY: What do you make of the calculation of the administration here? A couple of weeks ago, you know, a long-awaited virtual summit between President Xi and Biden, you know, they didn't solve all the world's problems and there weren't any major breakthroughs but it was at least something that I think viewed on the U.S. side as taking down the temperature a little bit and then to follow with this which the Chinese clearly are going to react to. What is the strategy here?

CHANG: Well, I'm sure the Biden administration didn't want to do this. No government really wants to impose costs on China but the issue, though, is that we're not driving events right now. It's Beijing. And it's not just with regard to the United States, they're also doing this to other countries, as well. So Xi Jinping is pressing them to make decisions that they otherwise don't want to make.

So I'm sure that President Biden didn't want to do this, but he's not been left very much choice especially with Peng Shuai and some of the other things that have occurred recently.

MATTINGLY: And I would work under the assumption, I know administration officials were when they were considering this or talking about this, that there will be a diplomatic reprisal of some sort from China. You know, will that be -- what would that look like do you think based on what you've seen over the years?

CHANG: Well, over the years when China has threatened reprisals, they've generally been very mild or they've not been imposed at all. Now, this time is probably going to be different. Xi Jinping realizes that the Olympics are at stake, also China's pride is at stake. So you're going to see something. And I don't know what it will be but you've got to remember that China needs the United States much more than the other way around. So any sort of reprisal is going to hurt China probably far more than it's going to hurt us.

MATTINGLY: Yes, this is going to be fascinating to watch going forward. Everybody in the White House knows that this is kind of a defining relationship right now and this is definitely a new twist to it.

Gordon Chang, thanks as always for your insight and expertise.

CHANG: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: All right, a number of Republicans are keeping up the fight against science. One even appears to advocate contracting COVID-19. I'll explain or try to "For the Record." Stay with us.

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[20:52:45]

MATTINGLY: This past week some prominent Republican lawmakers went all in on pandemic denial. Congressman Jim Jordan went so far as to suggest COVID is over, tweeting, "Real America is done with the COVID- 19. The only people who don't understand that are Fauci and Biden."

Here's the thing, nobody has enjoyed the last two years. Everybody wants it to end. But right now the U.S. is averaging more than 100,000 new COVID cases every day. That's the highest level in two months.

Is that what being done with COVID looks like? All that red that you see right there, that's where there is a high rate of community spread. Almost the entire country covered in red on that map. Or another example, see the orange and red? Those are the areas where COVID patients are flooding into ICUs. Is this what done with COVID looks like?

And it's not just Congressman Jordan. His colleague, Congressman Matt Gaetz said this about vaccines.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Still the best vaccine we found is Mother Nature's vaccine. It's contracting the virus. That is what has provided the greatest protection, the most durable protection over the longest period of time.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: For the record, since the vaccines became widely available, the risk of dying from COVID is 50 percent higher in red states than in blue states. Even on the most base cynical level, you would think these Republican politicians would want to keep their constituents, their voters alive. But instead there are seemingly weekly absurdities like this from Georgia Republican Marjorie Taylor Greene, quote, "Every single year more than 600,000 people in the U.S. die from cancer. The country has never once shut down. Not a single school has closed."

Cancer of course is not contagious. That is not just not apples to apples. That is apples to doorknobs or lightbulb or pretty much any other object that is definitively not an apple.

Now the Baseball Hall of Fame making room this weekend for a history making player. Coach, executive and now finally, about darn time by the way, Hall of Famer. After a legendary baseball career that spanned nearly 80 years, John Jordan Buck O'Neil is being honored with a place in Cooperstown.

[20:55:03]

Now O'Neil was a standout player in the so-called Negro Leagues before the sport was desegrated. And he had a hand in that, too. He went on to become a scout for the Chicago Cubs and in the '60s became the first African-American coach in Major League Baseball. In 2006, he spoke at the Hall of Fame induction of 17 legends of the Negro Leagues. He passed away just three months later at the age of 94.

Thanks so much for watching. I'm Phil Mattingly. Pamela Brown is back next weekend. The CNN Special Report "WHITE POWER ON TRIAL, RETURN TO CHARLOTTESVILLE" is next. Have a great rest of your Sunday.

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