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Biden Expected to Announce Diplomatic Boycott of Winter Games; Mark Meadows Expected to Appear Before January 6 Panel This Week; Lions Dedicate First Win to School Shooting Victims. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired December 06, 2021 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:07]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: It was notable to me that Perdue didn't straight up call the election stolen in his video announcement there, but he did say, well, Kemp did not protect the election. I mean, is that part of his message here? Is he going to tow the line on the big lie?

BLUESTEIN: Yes, it does seem like that. He is saying -- he's been calling for more investigations, election integrity. He is using those sort of buzz words that signal his loyalty to Trump and it signaled that he agrees with Trump without necessarily saying the election was stolen or rigged or any of the other lies that Trump has promoted.

SCIUTTO: So, the lieutenant governor, also a Republican of Georgia, Geoff Duncan, he called this another example of self-inflicted wounds for the GOP. Listen to what he had to say this morning. I want to get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN (R-GA): Quite honestly, David Perdue should know better than this. He is the only one to blame for losing his last election to Jon Ossoff and he ran the worst campaign ever. And that's his fault, not Brian Kemp's or Geoff Duncan's or any other Republicans' fault.

It appears earlier on that he is going to try to carry Donald Trump's water on the conspiracy stuff and that seems to be the only tailwind he's got.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So, how divisive, damaging, what a primary challenge like this be for Republicans there? Does it strengthen Stacey Abrams, in your view?

BLUESTEIN: It's going to be an all-out brawl. It's going to be ugly. It's going to be expensive. It's going to be caustic. And you are already seeing the battle lines being drawn even before -- long before David Perdue made this announcement with Republicans taking up arms for either Governor Kemp or Senator Perdue. And you will only see that accelerate. This is going to be just very, very bitter.

And, yes, it does play into the hands of Stacey Abrams and Georgia Democrats who are promoting unity at the top of the ticket, at least, saying that Democrats are united behind Stacey Abrams, they are united behind Senator Warnock, who is also on the ballot next year. And they're united behind some of the policies they're promoting, like extending Medicaid.

So, Democrats basically reacted with a sense of confusion, bewilderment and excitement that this was actually happening, that Perdue was actually going to challenge Governor Kemp.

SCIUTTO: Exactly one year ago today, we note Senator Perdue skipped a debate with Jon Ossoff, this ahead of their January runoff election, also skipped a debate just before the November general election, attended notably a Trump rally instead. Does Perdue debate Stacey Abrams or is this a broader strategy?

BLUESTEIN: That is a very good question. And, yes, you're right, that was a year ago. I was a co-moderator of that debate, so I'll never forget that moment. But he was under a lot of pressure to show up, to at least, you know, waive the standard, give Republicans something to cheer about, and instead he didn't. And then he had his own advisers kind of pushed back internally on that decision. So, he also skipped some major campaign rallies, did more of under the radar campaign push.

I'll tell you this, Governor Kemp is a worker. So, Governor Kemp is going to be out there going around the campaign trail, holding many, many events. And David Perdue will be under the gun to do the same thing, to be out there and be very visible in grassroots organizations, something he started do before this announcement but something he will have to definitely accelerate as next year nears.

SCIUTTO: Big lie lives on in parts of Georgia at least. Greg Bluestein, thanks so much.

BLUESTEIN: Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: A U.S. diplomatic boycott of the Beijing Olympics is expected to be announced this week. How is China reacting? We're going to be live from Shanghai, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:35:00]

SCIUTTO: This week, President Biden is expected to announce what is known as a diplomatic boycott of the 2022 Beijing Olympics. That would mean no U.S. government officials would attend the Winter Games in February, but athletes would be able to compete.

China is warning it will take, quote, resolute countermeasures against the Biden administration should that happen.

CNN International Correspondent David Culver is in Shanghai this morning. David, what else are Chinese officials threatening here?

DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. They are saying that this is all political maneuvering on the part of the U.S. And, Jim, it's interesting, they also say, well, you may not want to show up, but you weren't even invited as of yet. So, that's the statement they're putting out.

I struggle to see this as their being shocked or really stunned, as it has been discussed for several weeks and months, this diplomatic boycott, separating, of course, from an entire boycott which would block U.S. athletes from attending.

But I'll read you a little bit more from the foreign ministry here that came down just a few hours ago. They say the U.S. should stop politicizing sports and hyping up the so-called diplomatic boycott so as to not affect China-U.S. dialogue in cooperation in important areas.

This is looking like the middle ground right now for the U.S. because Biden can appeal to folks in the U.S. who want him to stay tough on China, he can show that, of course, officials will not show up this Beijing as really a plethora of issues, from human rights violations in Xinjiang with ethnic Uyghur Muslims, to Tibet, to the crackdown on pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong, to issues with Taiwan, to COVID origins. I mean, you name it. We've been through several issues that are facing China and the U.S. and really the world at this point. But China is using this as a moment to step up its nationalistic rhetoric and bolster its support domestically.

I will say though, Jim, this could also pose a bigger problem for China because what is worse than not having U.S. athletes attend but having them attend and to be here in the mainland, on Chinese territory, and to use these human rights issues as potential platforms to vocalize their concerns with how the Chinese government has been acting.

[10:40:15]

That would be a major issue.

SCIUTTO: Sure, specifically with the situation with Peng Shuai and the concerns about her treatment following accusing a senior Chinese official of sexual harassment. David Culver, thanks so much.

A top Space Force official is warning that the U.S. is losing ground to China in developing space capabilities and that China could overtake the U.S. in those capabilities by the end of this decade.

CNN Space and Defense Correspondent Kristin Fisher joins me now. Kristin, you moderated a panel of U.S.-based experts this weekend. They have been warning about Chinese progress for a number of years now. What in particular is concerning them now?

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: It's just the speed with which the Chinese are developing this new cutting edge technology. I mean, just take a look at that hypersonic weapons test a few months ago, right? And this stat really puts it in perspective.

The general that was on the panel said that China has tested hundreds of hypersonic weapons over the last -- or, excuse me, tested hundreds of hypersonic types of technology over the last, you know, five years or so while the U.S. has only tested nine. And so that level of testing is what -- you know, an example of what the U.S. really needs to work on.

And just listen to this quote from the vice chief of space operations for the U.S. Space Force, General David Thompson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. DAVID THOMPSON, VICE CHIEF OF SPACE OPERATIONS, U.S. SPACE FORCE: And the fact that, in essence, on average, they are building and fielding and updating their space capabilities at twice the rate we are. It means that very soon, if we don't start accelerating our development and delivery capabilities, they will exceed us. And 2030 is not an unreasonable estimate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: I mean, that is quite a statement. And that is just nine years away.

SCIUTTO: Is this sense of urgency making a difference, right? Because we've heard Space Force officials warn about this, about capabilities in space as well, right, offensive capabilities in space. Do they have the sense that this is moving the dial here in Washington?

FISHER: I mean, part of the reason the Space Force was created, of course, was to speed up this acquisitions process. Right now, all these panelists are pretty much in agreement that the bureaucracy is just bogging down that whole process. And Congressman Jim Cooper, who was also on the panel, he said that he was a huge advocate for the Space Force but he said it simply is not moving fast enough at this point. And when I asked him if China is now in a space race officially with the United States, Congressman Jim Cooper, not only did he say yes, he said hell yes. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Listen, I believe it. And, of course, you have Russia with their offensive test just a couple weeks ago. Kristin Fisher, thanks so much.

FISHER: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Always good to talk space.

Former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is expected to appear for a deposition this week in the ongoing January 6 investigation. How far is he willing to go? We're going to have details on that, next.

First, here are some other things to watch for on a busy news Monday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:45:00]

SCIUTTO: Former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is expected on Capitol Hill at some point this week to give a deposition to the House select committee investigating the January 6 riot. Meadows reached a cooperation agreement, has shared documents with the panel but only after he was faced with the threat of criminal contempt charges, criminal contempt of Congress.

He has been busy promoting his new book that includes some details about the day of the insurrection, including conversations, interactions with the former president.

Joining me now to discuss, CNN Legal Analyst Jennifer Rodgers, also a former federal prosecutor and law professor at NYU. Jennifer, great to have you back.

How can the president's former chief of staff simultaneously claim executive privilege to prevent some cooperation with the January 6 committee but also publish a book that describes a lot of details about his interactions with the president? Is that possible legally?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that is a great question, Jim. I mean, the answer is it is not quite as simple as some people have made it out to be. The holder of the privilege to the extent that the privilege exists here, and there are a lot of reasons why former President Trump should not be able to assert executive privilege, but the privilege to the extent it exists belongs to the former president, not to Mark Meadows, so he technically can't waive it. But what he can do is by speaking about these conversations in public and putting that information out there. That really diminishes the harm that former President Trump can claim from this information coming out. So, it is not so much a waiver, but he can't say that I'm grievously harmed by this information being the subject of testimony, and that influences the executive privilege analysis a great deal.

SCIUTTO: So, we've seen a lot of folks claim executive privilege with regards to their interactions with the president in this investigation and others, but we're also this new tactic of claiming the Fifth Amendment right to not incriminate yourself.

[10:50:07]

What does that mean, right? Does that mean they figured out kind of a way to get around things here, that they are genuinely worried about criminal exposure as well?

RODGERS: Well, it has to be a genuine worry. I mean, it has to be a good faith assertion. What you say when you say that you're invoking your Fifth Amendment protections is that you have a good faith belief that if you don't invoke, you may be subject to criminal charges. So, that is really amazing actually that two lawyers for the former president, John Eastman and the DOJ lawyer, Jeffrey Clark, have said that because of conversations with the former president, they could be criminally charged if they disclose that information. I mean, that is really amazing. So, you do have to have that good faith belief. It is not just a semi-stall tactic the way that executive privilege is. SCIUTTO: But does it have to be good faith in this case? Forgive me for being a skeptic here. Given that it seems there are some analysts who say that the advantage of that right is that you can engage the committee, claim the Fifth, and, therefore, prevent the possibility of contempt charges. So, you kind of win on all fronts.

RODGERS: It definitely will stop DOJ from bringing concept charges because they know that there is the basis for a good faith belief. I mean, it is tricky here because you are not in court. When you are in court in the course of a regular proceeding, there is a judge there. And so what often happens is the parties talk to the judge about what the good faith belief is, sometimes without the prosecutors present, so that the judge is convinced in the good faith belief. Here there is no judge.

So, it's just a little dicier than it normally would be. I mean, who is kind of making that assessment. But I think that we all know, frankly, from information that has become public, for example, the conversation that was recorded with former President Trump and the Georgia secretary of state, that there is a basis for criminal liability here for these folks who were advocating an overthrow of the government. So, I don't think in anyone is really questioning that they do have a possibility of charges here.

SCIUTTO: There is news this morning that the House select committee has postponed a scheduled deposition with the former national security adviser, Michael Flynn. They want him to testify about this meeting where Trump and aides discussed election lies, possibility delaying the certification on January 6th. And aides still tells Flynn he is engaging with the investigation. Well, what does that mean? I mean, I feel like you are either cooperating, right, engaging, does that just mean answering their phone calls? Where does that stand?

RODGERS: So, it seems to me, Jim, that after Steve Bannon was actually charged, a lot of folks said, oh, you know, holy molly, I don't want to be charged myself, so I'm going to take a different tact, which is not the complete blow off but instead this kind of dance of I'm engaging. Michael Flynn has been one of the most steadfast loyal Trumpists out there. I wouldn't expect him to be particularly cooperative. This one, I think, is probably more of the stall tactic.

SCIUTTO: Jennifer Rodgers, wouldn't be the first stall tactic we've seen in this investigation. Thanks very much.

RODGERS: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, touching, moving tributes to the victims in the Oxford, Michigan school shooting. How the Detroit Lions and the University of Michigan honored their memories.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:55:00]

SCIUTTO: In sports, the Detroit Lions finally put an end to their 15- game winless streak Sunday in a last second victory against the Minnesota Vikings. But here is what's important. Following the win, Lions Head Coach Dan Campbell dedicated the game to the Oxford community and those four students killed in last Tuesday's high school shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN CAMPBELL, DETROIT LIONS HEAD COACH: This game ball goes to the whole Oxford community, all those who were affected.

JARED GOFF, DETROIT LIONS QUARTERBACK: I hope they were all watching today were able to enjoy their win and we could take their minds off it for whatever it may be, three hours. I think anytime that we can do that, it is a lot bigger than our sports, a lot bigger than us, and today was one of those special circumstances that we were able to rise to the occasion and make something special happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Yes, for those four teenagers killed, lost their lives. The University of Michigan, it also honored the victims in Saturday's Big Ten championship game by wearing a special patch on their jerseys with four hearts for those four victims and the number 42 in tribute to Oxford High School star football player Tate Myre, who is credited with saving lives that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM HARBAUGH, MICHIGAN HEAD FOOTBALL COACH: We wanted to honor Tate Myre in this game, you know, dedicated the game to him for his courage and what he did in the shootings in Oxford. He is a hero. Our 42nd point up there and my patch fell off, but, yes, I mean, it is -- I think God was with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, you may have heard the coach mention it there, but Michigan won that game by scoring how many points, exactly 42. Maybe some divine intervention.

Thanks so much for joining us today. I'm Jim Sciutto.

At This Hour with Kate Bolduan starts right now.

[11:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN AT THIS HOUR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

Here is what we're watching at this hour. Troubling trend again, COVID cases and hospitalizations on the rise in the U.S. as new travel --