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Sources Say, Biden Admin Exploring Options for Potential Evacuation of U.S. Citizens from Ukraine if Russia Invades; Omicron Variant Detected in At Least 19 States; Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) Details Plan to Pass Social Safety Net Bill by Christmas Amid Growing Skepticism About Timeline. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 07, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: It is unclear what the evacuation, if it did happen, if Russia invaded, would look like from Ukraine. But the Pentagon is preparing for all possible scenarios, ranging from the evacuation of some U.S. government employees to a broader swath of American citizens.

But I think the bottom line here is that it shows just how seriously they are taking the Russian threat.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: I mean, that's the piece because it is natural to have contingency plans for a whole host of outcomes. But the fact that the Pentagon this doing this now, post-Afghanistan, but also in the midst of all that we're seeing along the Ukraine border, shows that these are at least serious plans if they need to put them into place.

BERTRAND: That's exactly right. And I think, you know, again, they don't want to be caught off guard here. They don't want to be in a situation where Russia does invade, which the administration has said repeatedly could be done on very short notice and have officials, U.S. governmental employees and American citizens be kind of stuck with no way out.

Now, of course, airlines are still operating, airports are open, there are still land borders that are open, so right now, there is no need for an evacuation. And that is what U.S. officials are telling us. But, again, this is all just in case.

SCIUTTO: Yes. As once source put it to me, the U.S. does not want to be caught, Erica, flat-footed. Of course, the Afghanistan experience educational in that sense.

ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: Yes, absolutely, that's for sure.

And as we look at all of this, Matthew Chance also with us, I know this comes just after you spoke with Ukraine's new defense minister, who is very clear in terms of what we sees as a threat, where he sees this going. Tell us, what more did he share with you in that interview, Matthew. MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it was fascinating interview with a man who's only been in the job for a month. I mean, when he got into the office of defense minister, this crisis was always in the background but it wasn't as acute as it is now. And so he's been plunged into the deep end, as it were, and he's really had to try and sort of struggle to get his head around the enormous threat that is posed by Russia to his country, the acute, the potentially imminent threat as well with that massive buildup of tens of thousands of Russian forces, according to U.S. intelligence estimates in and around Ukraine, particularly across the border in Western Russia.

He pointed out during the interview that we had with him here in the Ukrainian port city of Odesa that the Ukrainian army has been fighting Russian forces, Russian-backed rebels in the eastern part of the country nearly eight years now. And so it's developed a whole lot of skills. It's much more battle hardened than it was when the conflict started out. And so, any Russian invasion of this country he warned would not be a pushover and there would be serious consequences.

Take a listen to the defense minister of Ukraine had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Do you believe Russia will invade?

OLEKSIY REZNIKOV, UKRAINE'S MINISTER OF DEFENSE: I don't believe that -- I will not believe that Russia will have a victory in Ukraine because it's different, because it will be a really bloody massacre. And Russian guys also will come back in the coffins, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Yes, Russian guys will come back in coffins. No doubt that if there is a Russian invasion of this country -- and remember, Moscow insists it has no plans to invade -- it is not going to be an easy military operation at all and could get very, very messy, indeed, here on the ground. Back to you.

HILL: It is striking that we are at this point, especially after what we saw in 2014. Matthew, Natasha, thanks for your reporting. Jim, as well, of course, as you know, your reporting too as we take a close look at what's next here.

SCIUTTO: Joining us now to discuss all that, former Ambassador to Ukraine Steven Pifer. He also served at embassies in Warsaw, Moscow, London, research fellow at Stanford, knows a thing or two about how Russia and Putin operate. Ambassador, good to have you on this morning.

You wrote a piece that laid out what potential costs the U.S. could pose and which Biden could communicate to Putin today about this West Russia freeze, bolstering NATO's defenses, new economic sanctions as well as lethal military assistance to Ukrainian forces. Does that combination, in your view, effectively deter Russia, because pieces of that have been used before and have failed to deter? STEVEN PIFER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: No, that's a good point. But you're talking about I think economic sanctions, for example, that would be far more painful to Russia than in the past. You're talking about if there's a Russian invasion of Ukraine, the countries in the Baltic region, Poland, they're going to ask for more NATO presence on their territory. And my guess is NATO would respond sympathetically.

So, there are lots of things that are going to happen here that Moscow would not like, but you just heard from the Ukrainian defense minister. The big thing for Vladimir Putin is, if he invades, there will be Russian soldiers coming home in body bags, and that can't be popular with the Russian public.

[10:50:02]

HILL: One would imagine it wouldn't. When you look at all of this though, heading into this call this morning, how much leverage does President Biden have right now?

PIFER: Well, I think he does have some leverage, and they did prepare yesterday. It was important he talked to the British, French, German, Italian leaders, so he's speaking, I think, not just for the United States but to some extent for NATO. But he can lay out the costs. He can also offer some more engaged American diplomacy, both to try to resolve the conflict in Donbas and on some of the broader European issues. These are not going to be easy conversations but he can come with something to offer Putin as well as just a list of costs.

SCIUTTO: Please, I didn't mean to instrument. To be fair, the Biden administration is doing some things the Trump administration did not, one of which is speaking with one voice, including with allies, right, saying this will not stand here. But the criticism you hear was the Biden administration's decision not to sanction Nord Stream 2, this energy pipeline, which is perceived as giving Russia greater energy leverage over Europe. I wonder, do you think that was a mistake, and does Russia view Biden and the U.S. as weak in effect because of that decision?

PIFER: Yes. No, the Biden administration faced the dilemma with Nord Stream 2. It opposes Nord Stream 2 but it didn't want to use sanctions against companies that would trigger a big fight with Berlin and perhaps the European Union.

So, in May, the Biden administration waived some sanctions. However, if there's a Russian invasion of Ukraine now and the Germans and the Europeans don't cancel Nord Stream 2, my guess is there will be full American sanctions.

HILL: There's so much. Oh, to be a fly. I know we'll get some information after that call. But just in terms of what is riding on this, as you pointed out, those very important discussions with European leaders last night, what that does in setting President Biden up for this call this morning.

I was really struck by some more of Matthew Chance's interview as well with the new Ukrainian defense minister, just being very clear that he really does believe that the Kremlin will hear, and I'm paraphrasing, but he was talking about that the Kremlin will hear and see that there is this united front. And he really believes that that is going to have a major impact on Putin's decision-making. Would you agree?

PIFER: Yes. I think the Kremlin now has seen the west speaking with one voice but also I think this is the major potential cost to Russia is you have a Ukrainian military that's much larger, it's much better than in 2014. At the end of the day, the Russians might prevail, but they're going to take heavy costs. And it's not going to be like in 2014, where in Crimea, it was a relatively pain-free occupation by Russian forces, and in Donbas, Moscow says, well, these are separatists, they're not Russians. This is going to be Russian soldiers and that's not going to be popular at home for Mr. Putin.

SCIUTTO: Yes. If you've seen the recruiting videos for Ukrainian volunteers for its army, it is seen as a national mission now.

You talk about raising economic costs here. There is a deliberate effort to communicate to Russia that the cost of a military -- that the military costs will be higher here, and that's part, I'm told, of the motivation for increased lethal assistance, TOW missiles, for instance, that can kill Russian tanks. Do you think that aid has been sufficient, because I've also heard impatience on Capitol Hill with the pace and extent of that aid?

PIFER: Well, to some extent, of course, the extent is limited by how much money Congress appropriates. And I think at this point, you know, if there are ways to accelerate provision of weapons, like Javelin anti-armor missiles, (INAUDIBLE) communications, those things would be very useful, not just in terms of better equipping the Ukrainian military, but also signaling to the Russians that there will be western military assistance going to Ukraine if they invade.

And, again, we're trying to change the calculation in the Kremlin. I'm not sure that Vladimir Putin at this point has decided what he wants to do. What he want to do though is when they think about and make that final decision, that they have a full appreciation of all the costs, which I think are going to be quite substantial. Now, the question is can Vladimir Putin follow that same logic.

HILL: That does seem to be what we're hearing as well, that this decision hasn't been made and this hope that there is this window to perhaps influence that decision.

Ambassador Steven Pifer, we really appreciate you joining us today and appreciate you sharing your expertise. Thank you.

PIFER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Ahead this hour, one of former President Trump's most loyal allies, Devin Nunes, he's quitting Congress, going to work for Trump. We're going to discuss what's behind that move.

Plus, the now disgraced founder of Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes, takes the stand again today. Why this is one of the most closely watched trials in Silicon Valley history.

[10:10:01]

HILL: And up next, Dr. Francis Collins with the National Institutes of Health is here live, answering questions about the new COVID variant, about the pandemic. Should delta really be the top priority? Is it still? We'll take a look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

HILL: This morning, at least 19 states have now reported cases of the omicron variant, including Texas. Officials in Houston say they identified the variant in the wastewater. Health officials, let's be clear here, anticipated we continue to find more cases of the variant around the United States. Early data has shown it may be more transmissible than delta but so far it's not as severe, and that's really important.

Joining us now to discuss, Dr. Frances Collins, Director at the National Institutes of Health. Dr. Collins, always good to have you with us.

I would say finding this in Texas and 18 other states, that's not really cause for anyone to freak out. The reality is the omicron variant is likely in probably every state, but it's delta right no that is still dominant in the U.S., still dominant in Europe, as just we heard again from the WHO. Is our focus in the right place this morning?

DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: Well, that's a great question, Erica. And before we get to omicron and what we know and don't know, delta is still the most significant player by far that we have in the U.S. and we're not in a terribly good place right now. Following Thanksgiving, we're seeing cases going up again, now over 100,000 new cases every day, and we didn't want to be there, and hospitalizations also going up, and, sadly, deaths now in excess of 1,000 every day, the vast majority of those being unvaccinated people.

So, I'm hoping that -- I've been hoping this for a few months that people looking at this situation with both delta and maybe the threat of omicron would say, if you're not vaccinated, boy, is this the time to roll up your sleeve. And if you are vaccinated and eligible for a booster, get that booster now. We have cold weather. We have holidays. We have all the kinds of things that the virus loves, and our best ability to fight that off is to take full advantage of the vaccines and also don't forget to wear your mask when you're indoors with other people.

HILL: So, speaking of vaccines, we have seen vaccinations, daily vaccinations, tick up a bit, including not just for boosters but among first-time vaccinations. That's a good sign. We also heard from the WHO who said mandates should absolutely be a last resort, you juxtaposed that to what we're seeing here in New York City. The mayor announcing all private employees are going to need to be vaccinated, kids ages 5 to 11 will need to show at least one dose to get into a restaurant, to go see a show. What's the answer there? Is it mandates or is it letting people figure it out on their own?

COLLINS: Well, it ought to be letting people figure out on their own, and that would be my preference, but we have got a problem somehow in this country and other countries as well. There is so much misinformation out there, and people are so polarized about this issue for reasons that have nothing to do with the science, that mandates are, in fact, working, and I do agree that they're the sorts of things, in order to protect not just the people who aren't vaccinated but the people around them that they may be exposing. We need to take those kinds of steps.

So, I think that's what the president has been doing, even though it's being very much criticized by some. This is a public health emergency. We know these vaccines are safe and effective. If we have a chance to drive this delta variant away by getting more of our population immunized, then that's what we have got to do. And I wish we didn't have to use mandates, but if that's what it takes, then maybe that's what it takes.

HILL: There is much more of a focus on vaccines, certainly from the White House then in many areas, in testing. This has come up again and again. From the very beginning, we've been speaking with public health officials for nearly two years now who have said that better testing, including better access to at-home testing, could really make a difference. This came up again with White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki.

I just want to play what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Why not just make them free and give them out and have them available everywhere?

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Should we just send one to every American?

REPORTER: Maybe.

PSAKI: Then what happens if every American has one test? How much does that cost and then what happens after that?

REPORTER: All I know is that other countries seem to be making them available in greater quantities for less money.

PSAKI: Well, I think we share the same objective, which is to make them less expensive and more accessible, right? Every country is going to do that differently.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: There's a talk about making them more accessible. Look, I'm a person who's fortunate to have health insurance, I can get tested fairly easily. It's still been somewhat difficult in the last couple of weeks, different times I've needed to get a test. Why not have more of a focus on getting more testing, at-home rapid testing, to more people across the U.S., especially those who may not have access through their insurance?

COLLINS: Well, I think that is part of the goal when the president came to NIH last week and gave that speech about what to do about the winter approach to COVID-19. The idea making it clear that home testing would now be reimbursed by insurance, but also that 50 million home tests are being shipped out to places, like community health center, food banks, et cetera, to make it possible for people who don't have insurance to have access as well.

[10:20:05]

And, of course, if you have the ability, go to the pharmacy right now. You can pick up one of these off the shelf. I've been doing that myself --

HILL: You have to find it though.

COLLINS: -- before having an opportunity to get them.

HILL: Yet, I mean, those are tough to find now.

COLLINS: Yes, they are more findable now.

HILL: Now that we're past Thanksgiving.

COLLINS: Yes. You know, NIH has had a big role in trying to increase the number of types of over-the-counter home tests that are available through our program called RADx, Rapid Acceleration of Diagnostics. Look at the rate in which those are coming online. We are now seeing 3 or 4 million of those tests available every day, so it's getting a lot better.

I hear what you're saying, though, and certainly one of the things we're doing is a pilot to see what would happen in a few states now trying it out if you actually made it possible for anybody to go online and order a test from Amazon, free delivered to your door the next day. Would that change things? Let's find out. Let's get the data.

HILL: One of those really quickly, because I have one more question for you. When will we see those results?

COLLINS: That's going to take us another month, I think. Right now, we're running this in Georgia and New Hampshire.

HILL: Something to look forward in 2022.

Before I let you go, sequencing, as you know very well, has been difficult in this country from the very beginning. That was really laid bare once, I believe, it was B-117 variant, the one that was first identified in U.K. because of their strong sequencing. That really laid bare how lacking it was in the United States. It still takes a little bit longer here than it does in other countries to do some of that sequencing. What more needs to be done to get those efforts to a place where you're fully comfortable with them?

COLLINS: Well, CDC has been working really hard on that, and they are now up to the point of sequencing 80,000 to 90,000 viral isolates every week, which is about one out of every seven viruses that gets found. That's a lot better than where it was a few months ago. It still takes a few days because you have got to isolate the virus, you have got to amplify it using PCR, and then you have to run it through the sequencer, so the system is not quite as quick in the turnaround as maybe it could optimally be, but they're working on that as well.

We're getting a lot closer to the place that, say, the U.K. has been far while. They've been amazing in terms of the way in which they've handled this.

HILL: How quickly do you think we're going to ramp up to that level?

COLLINS: Oh, I think over the course of the next month. We're going to be in a very good place as far as collecting sequence data here in the United States. And we're going to want to see that because of omicron and see what else might be out there.

HILL: Dr. Francis Collins, I always appreciate you joining us. Thank you.

COLLINS: Glad to join you, Erica. Thanks a lot.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer believes there will be a Christmas miracle and that he will get the president's Build Back Better plan passed through his chamber. Senator Joe Manchin, not so sure. We're going to be live on Capitol Hill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: So, you wanted a fly-on-the-wall view of the Putin/Biden phone call? Russian state television just aired this clip of Putin speaking there to U.S. President Joe Biden by video conference, this as the discussion taking place in the midst of severe, urgent tensions over Russia's military buildup around Ukraine. You can see them there with the friendly greeting. We'll see how the rest of that conversation goes.

At this point, they've been speaking for about 20 minutes now. Biden from the White House, Putin from his home in Sochi. We'll bring you more as we find out more.

Back here in the U.S., Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, he says he's confident that Democrats can pass their sweeping social safety net bill by Christmas. But, once again, two key Democrats are skeptical they can deliver the Build Back Better bill to the president's desk by year's end.

Erica, I feel like we've heard this story before. HILL: I was thinking the same thing, Jim. CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju joining us now from Capitol Hill.

Manu, you know that better than anyone. What is the thinking this morning in terms of this hamster wheel? Is there a real chance that Democrats can get over that remaining hurdle in the next two weeks?

MANU RAJUC, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's very slight. There's a chance but it seems highly unlikely, according to multiple Democrats, just because of the process. They need to go through a parliamentary process in the Senate that takes about two weeks to ensure that this bill conforms with the strict budget rules under the process that Democrats are going through, essentially cut Republicans out and try to pass it along strict party lines.

And then they have to resolve the very significant and remaining differences within their own Democratic Caucus, mainly with Senator Joe Manchin, who has a number of concerns about the expansion of Medicare, about the climate provisions in there, he wants changes to the tax provisions. He's also concerned generally about the cost. And can they get that all resolved within the next two weeks? That seems doubtful.

And when I spoke to him yesterday, he also did not seem convinced by the White House's argument that this plan, roughly $2 trillion, could control inflation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: The White House says it will control inflation, this bill. Do you believe them?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): I haven't seen that. And I've heard that. I don't know how you control inflation when there's the first year of spending is going to be quite large. That's an awful lot more of federal dollars going into a time when we have uncertainty in inflation now.

RAJU: You're very skeptical.

MANCHIN: Well, I'm not skeptical. I'm just basically a realist. There's an awful lot there and a lot of changes to be done, and you're throwing at a time when it's very vulnerable in our economy and basically where we are in the American public.

[10:30:03]

As far as the strategy that they have trying to make it through some challenging times with gas prices --