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Sullivan: Biden was Direct and Straightforward with Putin on Ukraine; Biden Warns Putin Ukraine Will Be Met with Real Costs; January 6th Committee Considers Holding Meadows in Contempt; Instagram Unveils New Teen Safety Tools Ahead of Senate Hearing. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired December 07, 2021 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JILL DOUGHERTY, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: And if you do, we are ready. And Nord Stream, you know, we're get into energy, but energy is crucial, and that quote, you know, if he wants gas to flow through Nord Stream 2, he better not take any actions. So, those would be the headlines to me.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Let's go to Matthew Chance who is with the Kremlin's response. We just listened for about 20 minutes from the White House whose readout of the call. How is the Kremlin describing this call between the presidents?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, they don't characterize the nature of the discussions but they've issued a longish sort of readout, a text readout of how it went, and the sort of subjects that were discussed. There hasn't been a briefing yet -- like you just heard from Jake Sullivan. There's going to be one of those pretty soon.

They started out the readout talking about recalling the alliance that was enjoyed between the United States and the then Soviet Union back in the Second World War suggesting that, you know, it's that sort of format of a relationship, that kind of alliance that should be used to tackle the problems of the current day.

The readout unsurprisingly from the Kremlin gives a lot more emphasis to the situation in Ukraine in the sense that it mentions that, you know, the United States president talks about the alleged build up, as they would characterize it, of Russian forces threatening the sovereignty of Ukraine. And you know, talked about the idea there could be sanctions imposed against Russia, you know, if Russia were to give an order to violate the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

But the real emphasis of the readout was that Vladimir Putin putting across what his demands are. The idea that he wants legal guarantees for NATO, the Western military alliance, not to expand any further eastward, and more for NATO to stop deploying military infrastructure to the ground in Ukraine. Essentially making it a -- I'm paraphrasing that. Essentially, you know, making it a forward operating base for NATO countries. He wants that stopped. He wants a legal framework in place, so that there's an actual treaty there to prevent Ukraine ever joining the NATO military alliance.

And you know, there was no characterization in the readout about how that was received on the U.S. side, just that the two sides, two presidents agreed to sort of delegate that to their teams and it's something that will be discussed in an ongoing way. But, you know, as we put it before, it's very unlikely the United States or its allies are going to agree to consulting Russia when it comes to who and who is not part of the Western military alliance.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Ambassador tell us how you see NATO playing into this? What's their role now that we have heard both sides?

IVO DAALDER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Well, I think what was interesting was that both in the readout from the White House and in what Jake Sullivan said, the emphasis was not on the United States acting alone either in terms of the measures at economic and other measures that they would take in case of an invasion or in terms of diplomacy that was being offered, but it would do it together with its allies.

And I think it's very important to underscore that the administration has spent a lot of time to get the allies to be unified on both of those possible avenues. The avenue that says if you do, in fact, invade further in Ukraine, there will be strong economic and other measures, and those other measures include more military capabilities, both streaming into Ukraine itself, as well as to reinforce the commitment that the United States and other NATO members have made to the defense of the countries, the NATO countries in eastern Europe. And also, to do that together with our allies.

And at the same time, to say, but you know, if you actually deescalate if you start to reduce your forces, we're interested in a diplomatic engagement, both in order to find a way out of the situation in Ukraine, and if you want, a larger discussion about the future of European security.

I don't think that is a concession to Russia. It is only a recognition that these are issues that are better dealt with in diplomacy than they are through the force of arms. This is something that the allies have long put on the table, that they're more than willing to talk about European security issues with Russia. They're just not willing to limit the independence and sovereignty of countries in Europe just because Russia demands that as it is, in fact, asking with regard to Ukraine and these legal guarantees that Matthew was just talking about. Those are not going to be on the table.

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The allies are clear on that. The United States was clear on that, and the choice really now is Moscow. It can either engage in diplomacy or it can see the kind of measures that President Biden laid out in the conversation.

BLACKWELL: And let's talk about those, Phil. Jake Sullivan said, the things that the U.S. was not prepared to do in 2014 it is prepared to do now. And we know from reporting is that it was then Vice President Biden

who was pushing President Obama to supply those anti-tank missiles to give more lethal options to Ukraine. President Obama rejected that, it looks like, although they did not say it explicitly that that could be part of the package that going to Ukraine if there is a move across that border.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think it's already been part of a package that the Biden administration has put together in terms of defense capabilities, insistence that's been sent to Ukraine over the course of the last year. That's something they have focused on. They have gone further than the Obama administration did at the time. And as you noted Vice President was one of those inside the administration who wanted to go further.

His administration has done that in terms of the weapons side of things. I think the interesting element that Jake also said is they're willing to go further than 2014 on the sanctions side as well. And we have been talking, guys, about what the U.S. is considering on the sanctions side for the last 24 hours or so in terms of sanctions related to the energy section, the financial system, some of those in the inner circle of president Putin.

The key element here, and the Ambassador got at this is the U.S. can't necessarily operate unilaterally on that front. That has to be done in coordination with allies to have actual tangible bite. And I think that's what the president has been working on over the course of the last several weeks, and his team is trying to ensure that European allies who have very different equities, very different interests when it comes to Russia particularly on the energy side are lined up together.

There was a call yesterday with key European allies. The president is expected to talk I think right about now, maybe a little bit earlier than now, with those key leaders once again to go through what he discussed with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Trying to make clear both inside the alliances but also to the Russians that it's not just the United States having a position, it's not just one or two countries having a position. The European allies and the U.S. are aligned together to make this point.

But yes, diplomacy should be the option. They are willing to have discussions about the future here but they are also willing to be aligned together and unified together in whatever course of action they would take on the sanction side of things if Russia continues to pursue the path they've been on. I think that was a critical point the president wanted to make today and it's a critical point he and his team have been making over the course of the last several days, and will continued to, in the days ahead. It's not just the U.S. here, their general alliance with the European leader, and they will be moving together in terms of whatever happens next, either diplomatically or in terms of sanctions and other things that may bite.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about that, Kylie, what is next from the State Department's perspective? KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, the

State Department as the national security adviser said has been intimately involved in drawing up these sanctions options, with the NSC, with the Treasury Department. Looking at a whole host of options as Biden administration officials have been saying, things that the United States hasn't done in the past, to economically impinge on Russia.

The key here, however, is that they do want to act, as Phil was saying, alongside allies. So, it's figuring out what the options are here that the United States has at its disposal, that allies will do alongside them. Two significant things that the national security adviser said there is that he's not willing to publicly detail what those economic sanctions are going to look like but he said that the Biden administration has told the Russians in some detail what that would look like.

So, it's not like Russia is playing a guessing game here. The Biden administration has been telling them behind the scenes, listen, this is a situation you're going to face if you invade Ukraine. The other important thing that the national security adviser said is that both of the presidents, not just President Biden but President Putin as well, they tasked their teams with following up on their conversation. And you know, that's a little bit of diplo speak here, but what that indicates is that they didn't face a dead end. There are going to be follow up conversations from this presidential level conversation, which indicates that there is some forward movement here.

This wasn't a conversation that essentially didn't go anywhere at all. So that is an area that we'll be watching for. Will the State Department be following up on that? Will the National Security Council be following up on that? Where do things go from here? Those follow up conversations will determine that.

BLACKWELL: Jill, 100,000 Russian forces on the border now, estimates that could go up to 175,000. If not to invade, then why? I mean, is there recent precedent to suggest that there could be this flexing of a muscle at the border and then the massive retreat?

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DOUGHERTY: I think it's one thing that President Putin decided that he had in his quiver to get the attention of the West and of Joe Biden. They talked about a lot of the things that Putin wants. They've brought up before. Maybe not quite as much detail but they've talked about this. But they don't feel that they are getting any attention. So, when you put, you know, 100,000 plus on the border, you're going to get some attention.

But that said, I think the important thing is it's sad, of course, that he had to do that, I mean, you would think that he might be able to pick up the phone and start some type of discussion. But it is, I think, very, very important. Number one, it's deescalated right now, and as it was just pointed out that they keep talking about these things. Because ultimately for anyone, for Ukraine, for the United States, for Europe, for Russia, Ukraine's continuing to be caught in that era of conflict, and not resolved conflict is very dangerous.

So eventually somebody is going to have to resolve it a. and there have been, you know, there's the Normandy format, the Minsk Agreements, which have not been carried out. They're sitting there un- carried out, and that is the one key I think that everybody feels could ultimately solve this.

So, to put it on the table, and to I think as Biden said, we're willing to discuss it, but you have to stand down, you cannot take military action. I think it's actually probably the best outcome that you could expect. I wouldn't know, by the way. We haven't heard anything from the Kremlin. And that to me is significant because usually they are, you know, the jump ball is in their corner, they're usually on it, and they have something to say. But so far, they're not really saying too much of anything, and we'll be listening tonight to see what they have to say.

CAMEROTA: Ambassador, can you build on that. Because when the question was just asked in the press conference there, did President Biden make any concessions to Putin, what would those look like, what can the U.S. offer as Jill was just sort of outlining there?

DAALDER: So, I don't think that President Biden was willing or, in fact, did make any concessions. I think the reason we're seeing this troop buildup is because Vladimir Putin wants something that no one wants to give him. He wants to control the future of Ukraine. He has made very clear that he thinks there is a historical and cultural bond between Ukraine and Russia that is quite unique. That in fact, Ukraine should not be an independent country. That it should be at least sing to the tune from Moscow or a best be part of the Russian state. And he is putting military forces there in order to force that issue on to the agenda.

And I think the goal of President Biden's meeting today with Vladimir Putin was to make very clear that the United States does not except either that goal of Russia making Ukraine less than anything that it should be, which is a sovereign and independent state or the means by which Vladimir Putin is trying to achieve them, that is militarily.

We are willing to talk about European security. He made clear we will do that together with all of our allies. We should have a conversation about that. By the way, as Jake Sullivan underscored, that's not something new. In 1974, we had a conference on security and cooperation in Europe that led to the Helsinki final act. We've had these kinds of discussions during the Cold War, after the Cold War. It's perfectly fine to do it in the future but we're not going to do it with 100,000 troops ready to invade on the borders of Ukraine. And that's the message I think that President Biden was trying to send to President Putin and to do so, with the full support of our allies in Europe.

BLACKWELL: All right, we'll see if that message is received. Ambassador Ivo Daalder, Jill Dougherty, Phil Mattingly, Matthew Chance, and Kylie Atwood, thank you all.

We've got breaking news now. The congressional committee investigating the Capitol riots, says it might move forward now with a contempt case against former Trump Chief of Staff Mark Meadows if he does not show up tomorrow for the deposition. We'll take you live to Capitol Hill.

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CAMEROTA: We're just getting this into our NEWSROOM. The Select Committee investigating the January 6th attack on the Capitol plans to go ahead tomorrow with this deposition of Mark Meadows. Now the former White House chief of staff said today he will no longer cooperate with the committee. That's according to a letter from his attorney.

But the Select Committee says quote, tomorrow's deposition will go forward as planned. If indeed Mr. Meadows refuses to appear the Select Committee will be left with no choice but to advance contempt proceedings and recommend that the body in which Meadows once served refer him for criminal prosecution.

BLACKWELL: CNN Congressional correspondent Ryan Nobles is following this. Ryan, give us the latest.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor, and Alisyn, this just shows just how difficult the interactions have become between the January 6th Select Committee and Mark Meadows. The two sides have been going back and forth since Meadows was subpoenaed just a few months ago in an attempt to get him to come forward and provide information about what he knew about the events leading up to and on January 6th.

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And it appeared last week as though there had been some sort of a breakthrough, that Meadows was willing to come sit in front of the committee and answer questions even though he was still concerned about some of those questions being protected under executive privilege.

Still, the committee felt confident that they were going to be able to get Meadows in a room and at least begin the process of asking him those questions, but that process was derailed this morning when Meadows' attorney sent the committee a letter saying that he was no longer willing to cooperate and no longer willing to sit down and talk with them.

That's forced the committee into this position now where they're still going to schedule this deposition. They're going to be there waiting for Meadows. If he doesn't show up, they're now ready to move to take that bold step of a criminal contempt referral.

They've done this twice already. Once with Steve Bannon. That, of course, is in the prosecutorial stage. And with then of course with Jeffrey Clark, the former DOJ official. They postponed actually voting on it in the full House to give Clark one more opportunity to come forward. But Alisyn and Victor this just shows the difficulty that the committee is having trying to get these closely aligned individuals who are closely aligned with the former President Donald Trump to come forward and provide them any information.

This is a big roadblock for them, and they are running out of time to get that information before next year's elections -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Ryan Nobles on Capitol Hill with the breaking news for us. Thank you.

The markets are rallying again today as they seem to be shrugging off concerns about the threat of the coronavirus Omicron variant and what it could mean for the global economy. The Dow right now up by close to 400 points. That's in addition to yesterday's 600-point jump.

Also, we're seeing slightly lower gas prices -- so that's good news. AAA is reporting the national average price of gas dropped nearly a nickel in the last week to $3.35 a gallon. Still high, but not the seven-year high that we saw in October.

CAMEROTA: We're also seeing a significant drop in the price of natural gas. CNN's business reporter Matt Egan joins us now. OK, so Matt, what's causing these prices to drop?

MATT EGAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: Well, for months Americans were dealing with what felt like just this relentless rise in prices at the pump. Finally getting something relief as you mentioned, $3.35 a gallon nationally. Still high but it's a seven-week low. It's moving in the right direction.

The Biden administration which really has been under a lot of criticism over high prices, in particular gas prices, they are taking some credit here. A person familiar with the White House's thinking told me today that lower prices at the pump are good news and they are due at least in part to the president's actions.

It's true that President Biden's intervention in the energy markets has helped. It was about two weeks ago that he announced that largest ever release of strategic reserves. That has been a positive as far as oil price go. But that's just one factor.

There's also Omicron. Black Friday, we saw oil prices collapse because of worries about Omicron. The good news is that some of those COVID fears on Wall Street are fading. That's why the stock market is up. But oil prices are up as well. And because gas prices move with a lag to oil, that suggests that, you know, this relief at the pump may not last that long.

CAMEROTA: OK, that's a mixed report, I would say. Matt Egan, thank you for all of that.

EGAN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, we'll be right back.

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[15:55:00] CAMEROTA: Instagram, which is owned by Facebook, is rolling out new safety features today. They say the measures are aimed at protecting younger users from harmful content and addictive behavior.

BLACKWELL: And they are being put in place one day before Instagram's CEO is scheduled to testify on Capitol Hill over the issue. CNN's Donie O'Sullivan is here. Donie, what's the plan?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Instagram, as you mentioned, Instagram are rolling this out. It's not a coincidence. One day before they go to Congress. And some folks will cynically say it's so they have something to tell the Senators. Say we're doing something.

Here is what some of the features that they are rolling out. They are going to let people know that they should take a break from the app. They're going to take a stricter approach or they call it a stricter approach to all content they recommend for teenagers. They're going to allow both deletions of photos and videos previous likes and comments and create an educational hub for parents.

Which all sounds very well and good, but I think, you know, the company's critics, a lot of lawmakers, the Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen will say this is really nothing. This doesn't scratch the surface.

People want fundamental change at these platforms. This isn't going to solve the issues of when if you set up an account and you're a young teenager girl and you start following some dieting accounts as we did with an experiment in our reporting a few weeks ago, and the app starts recommending to you, pro-anorexia, pro-eating disorder accounts. That's the fundamental problem.

A lot of this sort of stuff is window dressing. It's good to have some changes but really it is something just so the head of Instagram has something to say tomorrow.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I mean call me a cynic, but the timing seems like not a coincidence. So, what do you expect the CEO to say?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, well, we often -- and we often see they've done this before where Zuckerberg comes in. The CEO tomorrow is probably going to say something on the lines of we know we have a lot more work to do. We are taking these steps.

But I think the awkward questions that lawmakers can ask him is to say, well, what are you going to do about your algorithm? Because that's ultimately what feeds people the garbage whether it's about the election or it's about eating disorders or it's about all other types of conspiracy theories.

BLACKWELL: All right, Donie O'Sullivan, thank you.

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