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Interview With Sen. Tammy Baldwin (D-WI); Congress Moves to Hold Mark Meadows in Contempt; Russia Tensions; Pfizer Announces Booster Shots Protect Against Omicron. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 08, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:14]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

The January 6 Committee says it has no choice but to hold former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows in contempt. He skipped a deposition this morning. Now, Meadows has previously agreed to cooperate. He's even given the committee thousands of pages of documents.

We're talking personal e-mails, cell phone exchanges. Committee Chair Bennie Thompson says one of them is an e-mail from January 5 with a 38-page PowerPoint titled "Election Fraud, Foreign Interference and Options for 6 January."

CAMEROTA: But, as of today, Meadows becomes part of a long list of Trump allies fighting the committee's investigation. The list includes Roger Stone, who says he will plead the Fifth to avoid answering questions.

The clock is ticking for this committee. A potential GOP majority after the midterms in 2022 could shut down the panel for good.

CNN's Ryan Nobles is on Capitol Hill for us.

So, Ryan, it sounds like those thousands of documents that Meadows was originally turned over will be very helpful to the committee. So do we know what's in those?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're getting some idea of what exactly Mark Meadows handed over to the January 6 Committee.

And, Alisyn, you're right. It is pretty revealing about the role that Meadows played in the events leading up to January 6, specifically the peddling of this false information about the election results in November.

This is just part of the letter that they released today where they express concern about Meadows' lack of cooperation and their willingness to move forward on criminal contempt.

It reads -- quote -- "A November 7, 2020, e-mail discussing the appointment of an alternate slate of electors is part of a direct and collateral attack after the election. A January 5, 2021, e-mail regarding a 38 page PowerPoint briefing entitled 'Election Fraud, Foreign Interference and Options for 6 Jan.' that was to be provided on the Hill, and among others, a January 5, 2021, e-mail about having the National Guard on standby."

And this is not the only bit of information that Meadows did provide to the committee. He also provided information related to text messages and phone calls that he made around that time, among them, a text message to a member of Congress where he said -- quote -- "I love it" in response to discussing an alternative slate of electors.

In early January 2021, Meadows texted an organizer of the January 6 rally on the Ellipse showing that he was part of the organization of that event, and then texts about the need for the former president to issue a statement that could have stopped the January 6 attack.

So it is a bit peculiar that Meadows was so willing to hand over all this information and then at the last second backed out of that deposition that was scheduled to take place today, forcing the committee now into this position of holding him in criminal contempt.

The committee contends, well, they will still be able to get the information, even if it doesn't come directly from Meadows, as they have talked to more than 250 people as part of their investigation -- Alisyn and Victor.

BLACKWELL: Ryan, what do about the committee's response or reaction to Roger Stone's indication that he will plead the Fifth to the panel? Have they said anything about that?

NOBLES: Well, some of the members have independently given their own opinions of Roger Stone's effort to plead the Fifth and basically say that he's not going to cooperate with the committee.

They're obviously unhappy with it and frustrated by it. Also, they're frustrated by the fact that this seems to now be a pattern of some of those most closely aligned with the former president to instead of just outright evading the committee saying that they're going to stonewall the information by evoking their Fifth Amendment privilege.

This does, however, Victor, put them in a difficult position, because it is their right under the Constitution to invoke the Fifth Amendment. There are some committee members questioning whether or not they're doing it in good faith.

However, this could complicate the process should they move to criminal contempt. It would make it a little bit more difficult for them to prosecute because they do have that Fifth Amendment right. It just shows the many steps that these Trump-aligned individuals are using to try and stonewall the committee and not provide them the information they're looking for.

CAMEROTA: OK, Ryan Nobles, thank you for the latest.

Also on Capitol Hill today, Senate Republicans are expected to vote to overturn President Biden's vaccine mandate for private businesses that orders workplaces with 100 or more employees to require workers to be fully vaccinated or to get tested weekly.

Two Democrats, Senators Jon Tester and Joe Manchin, are siding with the Republicans. But President Biden is certain to veto that measure.

BLACKWELL: On vaccines, Pfizer announced today its early data shows a booster of its vaccine protects against Omicron. A variant has now been detected in 21 states.

CNN's Alexandra Field is covering the latest pandemic developments.

[14:05:05]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. MIKAEL DOLSTEN, CHIEF SCIENTIFIC OFFICER, PFIZER: To be protected of Omicron, you really need a three-dose series of vaccination. And that's how we should look at it. Right now, the three dose series is what you need.

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Early data from Pfizer delivers promising news on the efficacy of its vaccine against the Omicron variant.

DR. ALBERT BOURLA, CEO, PFIZER: Three doses against Omicron are almost equivalent to the two doses effectiveness would have against the wild-type, the original variant.

FIELD: The company saying just two doses may still provide protection against severe disease, but adding that a booster increases protection by about 25 times.

Dovetailing with that data, a very small study in South Africa showing the variant can partly evade Pfizer protection and that boosters are likely to better protect people.

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, PROFESSOR OF GLOBAL HEALTH, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Rather than calling it a booster, it may be that being fully immunized and fully protected actually require three doses.

FIELD: More calls now to reconsider the definition of fully vaccinated, with just about 25 percent of vaccinated Americans having received a booster shot.

The CDC is closely tracking new Omicron cases, now confirmed in at least 21 states, also linked to an anime convention in New York City involving 53,000 people.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: Data from this investigation will likely provide some of the earliest locks in this country on the transmissibility of the variant. FIELD: So far, Omicron cases are generally described as mild. The

Delta variant still accounts for virtually all cases in the U.S., which is now seeing surges in new cases in parts of the Midwest and Northeast, Michigan, New Hampshire and Maine all hitting record high hospitalizations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really wanted to get the booster. Been a little stressful, especially the holidays and stuff coming up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD: And two years into the pandemic, a new study is showing us what we have not learned, this study concluding essentially that the entire world is unprepared for the next pandemic.

Not a single country scored well on the Global Health Security Index. The average score for preparedness was about 38.9. And that is really unchanged since 2019. Just think about that. The U.S., if you're wondering, scored just under 76.

CAMEROTA: Maybe we're just so overwhelmed with this one, it's hard to move on to the next one.

FIELD: Haven't had time to think about the next one yet.

CAMEROTA: Maybe.

BLACKWELL: All right, Alexandra Field, thank you.

All right, joining us now Dr. Zeke Emanuel. He was White House health policy adviser and one of the architects of Obamacare. He is the author of "Which Country Has the World's Best Health Care?" He's currently vice provost of global initiatives at the University of Pennsylvania.

Dr. Emanuel, good to have you.

Let's start here with, how many doses should make up or define fully vaccinated? We have heard there from Pfizer that the protection against Omicron from three doses equals roughly that of two doses to the original strain. Is it time to redefine what fully vaccinated means?

DR. EZEKIEL EMANUEL, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPECIAL ADVISER: Well, let's just say that we know that over time the antibody levels go down.

And if we're using that as the main outcome, one of the things we really want to do is make sure the body (AUDIO GAP). And to that end, it's important that get a boost.

BLACKWELL: It's important to get a booster. We know that.

EMANUEL: Before the holidays, people should be...

BLACKWELL: I hear you on that. And we have heard that from Dr. Fauci. We have heard it from the administration. But if we now know that the greatest protection comes from having a

third shot, shouldn't that now be the benchmark? Shouldn't that be the floor?

EMANUEL: I think it probably is a three-shot treatment.

In addition, I think that what you need to do is test out after the boost for what happens, and actually thinking about it not as a booster, but so much as a three-shot fully vaccinated is probably the right way.

BLACKWELL: And you would say it's time for the CDC to make that clear that it's a -- that full vaccination is three shots?

EMANUEL: I think that's probably right.

BLACKWELL: All right, so we just heard from the British prime minister, Boris Johnson, about Omicron there, in which he says that the data points, points to the doubling of the time of the virus there to two to three days, that Omicron is spreading faster than Delta did in the U.K.

They have now moved to Plan B, offering guidance to people to work from home, requiring masks in public indoor spaces. There's a new poll out from Axios that shows that here in the U.S. people aren't really enthusiastic about making changes; 62 percent say they will mask indoors in public. Just a third will stop dining indoors. Even fewer will stop gathering with people or cancel holiday traffic or stop going to the office.

[14:10:01]

Is it time to change some of the mandates in the U.S. now that we know that Omicron is here in 21 states, considering what we see in the U.K. and what we saw in South Africa?

EMANUEL: Well, I think you're going to see a big impact on our health care system, because, even if it's not worse, if it's not more virulent, and it's more transmissible, we're going to have a situation where we have more people affected, and it will overwhelm hospitals.

And that's the worry. And I think we're looking for -- we're likely to have a big increase in hospitalization and unfortunately death after the new year.

BLACKWELL: Should there now be local mandates for masks indoors and all of that? Should we start to see the changes here in the U.S. that were ordered today in the U.K.?

(CROSSTALK)

EMANUEL: We may feel like we're done with coronavirus, but it's not done with us. And we are going to have to adapt.

I do think mandates are helpful. And we (AUDIO GAP) both for vaccines and masks. And I think, against the new Omicron, we're probably going to need them.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Emanuel, I thank you for your time. We're having a bit of an issue with audio. So that's why it sounds like I'm jumping in, you're jumping back in, because there's both a delay and we're having some difficulty hearing and understanding you.

But I think we got the gist of it.

EMANUEL: I hear you.

BLACKWELL: And, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, thank you so much for being with us.

CAMEROTA: OK, meanwhile, Instagram's CEO is about to take the hot seat on Capitol Hill in a hearing about the platform's impact on teenagers. And we're going to speak to one of the senators planning to question him about what needs to change.

BLACKWELL: And President Biden is talking about his high-stakes meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin. What he's saying about the consequences if Russia invades Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:25]

CAMEROTA: Minutes from now, Instagram CEO Adam Mosseri will face tough questions on Capitol Hill about the platform's efforts to keep teenagers safe, or lack thereof.

"The Wall Street Journal" reported in September that Instagram's own research showed they knew that Instagram is harmful to many teenagers.

In his prepared opening remarks, Mosseri is expected to try to spread the blame and the responsibility -- quote -- "The reality is that keeping young people safe online is not just about one company. We have been calling for updated regulations for nearly three years. From where I sit, there is no area more important than youth safety" -- end quote.

Wisconsin Senator Tammy Baldwin has been sounding the alarm about this for months. And she will be questioning Mosseri moments from now. And she joins U.S.

Senator, thanks so much for stealing away from that hearing that we know is about to start any minute.

So, just yesterday, Instagram released some new safety measures they say they wanted to announce. Here they are, some take a break alerts so that you're not on it in a sort of I guess a more addictive, obsessive fashion. Take a stricter approach to what content it recommends to teenagers, allow people to bulk-delete photos, videos, previous likes and comments, and make an educational hub for parents.

So, two questions. Do you think that those things will solve the problem? And, second, do you find the timing convenient, 24 hours before this hearing?

SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D-WI): Yes, I certainly do see the timing very convenient.

But, look, I want to commend them on taking those steps. it will not solve the problem. They need to do more. And I am particularly worried about the sort of overarching misalignment of a profit motive and then what that means for their users, that they make profits if they can keep somebody almost addicted to going from source to source.

And they have algorithms that have been created to try to keep you absorbed in their social media platform.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BALDWIN: And it does cause harm.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: I'm sorry to interrupt you, Senator.

Yes. And I just want to point out, case in point what you have been trying to sound the alarm about, which is for teenage girls. So Instagram, as it relates to eating disorders, OK?

BALDWIN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: The algorithm leads girls to anorexia content. I mean, that's just one example. And then their own internal research, as we now know from the whistle-blower Frances Haugen, they did research that showed that Instagram makes body image issues worse for one in three teenage girls; 13 percent of British users, 6 percent of American users attribute suicidal thoughts to having been on Instagram.

And teenagers blame Instagram for a rise in anxiety and depression. So how is all of that allowed to happen?

BALDWIN: Right.

And I had just a really powerful conversation with friends I was having about that. This issue is very close to my heart and several of my colleagues who have had loved ones or friends who have eating disorders. This is very serious, and great harm can occur.

And when you think that somebody might just be looking for healthy diets or healthy lifestyles, and somehow an algorithm will bring them to something that lowers their self-esteem and body image and glorifies anorexia or other eating disorders, this cannot be allowed to persist.

[14:20:04]

And what I think it will take on the part of Instagram, first of all, Instagram and other social media platforms, they have to show us the algorithms, meaning the oversight agencies, regulatory agencies, so that we can actually see where users are being driven.

And, secondly, they need more human beings working there, moderating the content, and making sure that harmful content is removed. They do some of this through artificial intelligence. But that's not enough. That doesn't filter out all the harmful content that is in there, and they need more people working -- working on that.

CAMEROTA: It sounds like one of the things that the CEO, Adam Mosseri, is going to say is that TikTok and YouTube are more appealing now to teenagers, that Instagram isn't where teenagers go for most of their social media anymore.

What do you think of that defense?

BALDWIN: You know, all of these social platforms would like to attract as many people as possible. That includes youth.

And so I question, for all of them, what are they doing, first of all, to make sure that people below the age of 13 are not becoming absorbed and addicted by these social media platforms?

But, also, just saying you have a smaller share of that age population does not mean that you don't have responsibility to prevent harm from those who do use it.

CAMEROTA: It sounds like he's also going to say that he is calling on Congress to help regulate them.

So what's Congress' responsibility now? What are you going to do?

BALDWIN: Well, one of the things I really think has to happen is, in the regulatory oversight board, the Federal Trade Commission, the FTC, as we call it, that we need more specialists who can actually look at algorithms and understand what that means, and help the regulators do their jobs more effectively.

I do think that will require our appropriating sufficient funds for them to redouble their efforts there. We also have to have a long and serious talk about what the responsibilities of the social media should be if they post or allow content that is harmful.

And I'm not just talking about eating disorders and healthy body images and suicide prevention. I'm talking about things with global implications too. We know that these social media plat -- social media have been used for conspiracy content, for all sorts of things that have serious implications.

So we need to act. And there's several pieces of legislation that we're looking at right now. But these hearings are an important precursor to that, but we have got to act.

CAMEROTA: We will be watching very closely. It's starting right now.

So, Senator Tammy Baldwin, thank you for being with us.

BALDWIN: Thank you. BLACKWELL: President Biden again today warns Russia of severe

consequences if Putin invades Ukraine.

CAMEROTA: And it's the end of an era in Germany, after Chancellor Angela Merkel leaves office. We will tell you who is running Europe's largest economy now.

BLACKWELL: Here's what else we're watching today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:59]

BLACKWELL: President Biden is making it clear today that he will not give Vladimir Putin the same kind of latitude that President Obama allowed when Russia annexed Crimea seven years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was very straightforward. There were no missed words. It was polite, but I made it very clear.

If, in fact, he invades Ukraine, there will be severe consequences, severe consequences, economic consequences like none he's ever seen or ever have been seen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, Vladimir Putin is dismissing any suggestion that Russia is planning to attack Ukraine. In his words, it's -- quote -- "a provocative allegation."

CNN's Kylie Atwood is at the State Department,

Kylie, Vladimir Putin's denial would be a lot more plausible if we didn't see 100,000 Russian troops amassing on the Ukraine border. So what are U.S. officials saying today?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right.

I mean, the facts on the ground are that he has this abnormal, very, very high number of Russian troops that have come up to that border. And that is why this is so concerning. In the words of a top State Department official who testified yesterday, this is a larger and more lethal operation than Russia conducted in 2014, of course, in the lead-up to when it came into Crimea.

So, what we are watching for now