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New Details Emerge in January 6 Probe; Interview With White House Principal Deputy Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre; President Biden Holds Call With Ukrainian President. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 09, 2021 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

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Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

Right now, a phone call that stirs chilling memories of the Cold War. President Biden is holding a critical call with Ukrainian President Zelensky to discuss Russia's military buildup along Ukraine's border. There are growing international fears that those Russian troops will invade.

The White House has warned Russia's President Putin and is now weighing its options. We will unfold all of us over the next few minutes.

Let's begin with CNN senior White House correspondent Phil Mattingly.

Phil, what was President Biden's message to his Ukrainian counterpart?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think when you talked to U.S. officials leading up to the phone call, they made clear was equal parts and update, letting President Zelensky know more details about the president's call with President Putin two days ago.

Obviously, their teams had been in touch since then, but also coordination. I think that's increasingly important in these very tenuous days right now, with that Russian troop buildup on three sides of Ukraine's border, is making clear where the U.S. stands, what the U.S. is intending to do, and laying out in detail what the U.S. and its allies are planning if Russia decides to move on the offensive.

Now, obviously, President Biden made very clear in his warnings to President Putin in that two-hour-and-one-minute phone call that there would be severe repercussions if Russia were to move forward with any kind of invasion. And it wouldn't just be unilateral repercussions from the United States side. They would be in concert with U.S. allies in Europe as well, where sanctions can have real bite when they're all unified together.

But I think the effort that you have seen over the course of the last several days is trying to keep that from happening, the president offering an off-ramp to President Putin, making clear there are discussions, with both presidents tasking their teams to continue discussions to try and bring the temperature down to some degree.

And also keep in mind, Ana, the president isn't just talking to President Zelensky today. He's also talking with the leaders of the Bucharest Nine, really the eastern flank of NATO allies. And what you're seeing throughout this process over the course of the week.

The president, having multiple phone calls with European leaders, obviously speaking to President Putin directly, but then speaking to the president of Ukraine, the leaders of nine European countries that make up the eastern flank of NATO, is trying to show that there's a unified front on the Western alliance side of things, in the hopes that that, more than anything else, will dissuade President Putin from moving any further from that troop buildup that is already around 100,000 troops -- Ana.

CABRERA: Phil Mattingly at the White House for us, thank you.

I want to bring in national security contributor Mike Rogers he's a former Republican congressman who chaired the House Intel Committee.

Congressman, President Biden in the White House laying out an idea of what they would do if Russia invades Ukraine, even threatening action beyond what happened in 2014, after Russia's annexation of Crimea. But are those threats enough to actually stop Vladimir Putin from invading?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Not likely. I'm sure he's calculated most of this in.

And I think the most important thing for Putin was to keep Ukraine from turning West. And I mean economically, so strong economic ties, businesses that are started in Ukraine. All of his actions up to this point have done a fine job of preventing that from happening. Imagine if you were a company thinking about going and investing in Ukraine.

Would you do that with 175,000 troops on their border and this saber- rattling, I might come in? He didn't take it off the table. Now Putin is going to get all of the leaders of our four NATO countries actually coming in with the United States to have a conversation about what he wants and what they can do to mitigate this.

So he's already setting this table. And what's going on right now, Ana, which is really important to this, he's conducting certain cyber- espionage, information operations. He's got intelligence officers sprinkled all over Ukraine right now.

All of that is working toward his end. So I wouldn't put it past him to invade. But, right now, I'd have to argue he's in a pretty good spot. He's going to get a lot of what he wants, and he won't have to send one troop, one more troop, by the way, over the border. He's already invaded Ukraine once.

CABRERA: And so, as the president, President Biden, meets with allies, talks with Ukraine's president, what are the options right now?

We do know, based on what we heard from the president yesterday, one option that's not on the table has to do with military action. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That is not on the table. What is not -- they are not -- we have a moral obligation and a legal obligation to our NATO allies, if they were to attack, under Article V. It's a sacred obligation.

[13:05:00]

That obligation does not extend to NATO -- I mean to Ukraine. But it would depend upon what the rest of the NATO countries were willing to do as well. But the idea the United States is going to unilaterally use force to confront Russia from invading Ukraine is not on -- in the cards right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Right off the top the initial question was, would the U.S. put boots on the ground? And he said, it's not on the table.

Was it wise for the White House to take that action off the table?

ROGERS: You know, as a -- the first thing you learn getting into the national security space of Washington, D.C., is that first memo is, item number one, never take anything off the table.

And so what you're telling a guy who's already trying to read the administration's actions -- think about Afghanistan. Yes, they think the Russians calculate our decision there to walk away from allies after 20 years and turn it over to the Taliban. Stopping materials shipments to Saudi Arabia in the proxy war with Iran. They factor all of that in.

And so when you first thing say is, I'm thinking of invading, and the United States, most powerful military of the NATO alliance, says, well, we will do no military action, we're taking that off the table, even if you invade -- and remember the conversation was, if you invade, which means they have already done it, we will do these following things.

I just think that sends exactly the wrong message to a military autocratic strongman who's amassed troops on the border. So I worry a little bit about that. We look a little bit weak in this. And that is exactly what Putin will try to take advantage of.

CABRERA: It's obviously very complicated.

Mike Rogers, really appreciate all your expertise and insight. Thanks for being with us.

ROGERS: Thanks, Ana.

CABRERA: Let's go now to the White House and Principal Deputy press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre.

Thank you so much for joining us.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRINCIPAL DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: Thanks, Ana.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: We know Russia is continuing to build up its forces on the border with Ukraine. It went from 90,000 to 120,000 troops at the border just in the last few days, according to Ukraine's officials.

Now, we heard President Biden now publicly saying that putting U.S. troops on the ground is not on the table. Why take that option off the table?

JEAN-PIERRE: So, let me just lay out what our approach here is, Ana, as we're moving forward here.

It is -- first, it is defense. It is deterrence. And it is dialogue. As you just stated, at the top of the show, the president is going to be speaking with President Zelensky. And he's going to make it very clear. He's going to reiterate our commitment to Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity.

And he's going -- and we're going to do that in lockstep, in partnership with our European allies, and also our allies in the region, because the way that we see it, as the president said in that clip that you showed when he answered questions yesterday from reporters, our relationship, our commitment with NATO is sacred.

He's also going to call the our allies in the eastern flank just to read out the conversation that he had with President Zelensky. Of course, we will provide a readout to all of you once we have that to share.

But I want to be very clear here. And the president said this yesterday as well, and so did his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, which is that the president looked at President Putin straight in the eye and said to him, if Russia continues or further invades Ukraine, there will be a strong and swift economic consequences and beyond.

So that is the message that the president believed connected with President Putin very clearly. But, to be clear, we want to -- what we're trying to make sure that happens here is that Russia de- escalates and we're on a path to diplomatic conversation here, diplomatic dialogue. So that is the way that we're moving forward. That is our approach.

CABRERA: So you talk about the president's threat of economic consequences.

We have reported on the possibility of increased sanctions. But would those come after an invasion? Because some have argued, at that point, it's too late.

JEAN-PIERRE: So, I mean, as you can imagine, I'm not going to lay out our punches here or speak to hypotheticals. That's not how this process works.

What we're going to continue to do is lay out what I just talked about, our approach, which is, again, defense, deterrence, and dialogue. And so that's how we're going to move forward, but I'm not going to publicly negotiate.

CABRERA: Let's pivot to domestic politics, because, right now, most Americans are really worried about what's happening here in the U.S., right, with COVID, with the economy.

And there has been some good news this week on the economy. Just today, we learned weekly jobless claims hit a 52-year low. Supply chain issues are improving. Gas prices are dropping, unemployment numbers also dropping. The stock market is near a record high.

[13:10:00]

And yet President Biden's approval rating is in the low to mid 40s. Why do you think Americans are so unhappy with the job he's doing right now?

JEAN-PIERRE: So let me just say this, because what you just laid out is very important for your viewers to know.

This is -- that unemployment claims benefit number that you just spoke about is really important. It shows how strong our economy is. It's the strongest ever. It's -- you're seeing unemployment insurance benefit claims from American people that have -- from last week. That is the lowest that we have seen since 1969.

And a lot of that is because of what the president has done over the several months, his leadership, the investments in the American Rescue Plan, and we're going to see more of that with the bipartisan infrastructure law, which what I'm talking about is wages going up, unemployment numbers going down, and all very critical and important, and also this really comprehensive vaccination program that the president has had to make to make sure that people are comfortable to go back to work, and really move our economy forward.

And so -- but the president understands that the American people are still feeling that squeeze. They still see the increase of prices. He is from Scranton, Pennsylvania, understands what all of this is like. And that's why he took such decisive actions when it came to the supply chain to make sure that prices were going down and, what you said, we're seeing the effects of that. And so what we're trying to continue to do is to continue to make

those investment. That's why Build Back Better is so important in bringing down that inflation. We have heard from economists and leading rating organizations from Wall Street that have said that this Build Back Better plan will ease inflation over the long run.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: Let me jump in here, if you -- with all due respect, just because you covered a lot of territory there.

JEAN-PIERRE: No, no, that's good. Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

JEAN-PIERRE: There's a lot of territory to cover.

CABRERA: If all of those things are happening, and you're trying to highlight all the positive aspects in the economy, and what you are saying has to do with the president's policies, where's the disconnect?

Is it a messaging problem? Because, clearly, Americans aren't giving him credit for it.

JEAN-PIERRE: Well, here's the thing. We are just going to have to continue. It's not just words. We're going to continue to take actions and deliver for the American people.

That's the -- that's what we're moving forward. That's what the president wants to do. And here's the thing, polls go up, polls go down. We understand that.

CABRERA: Sure.

JEAN-PIERRE: The president's number one thing is to make sure he delivers for the American people. And that is what he's doing every single day.

And Build Back Better, just to get back to that for a second, it is going to lower costs for the American people. It's going to make sure that they're paying lower in prescription drugs, in child care, in education, in housing. All of those things are so critical meeting the moment that the American people are going through, that struggle that they have to deal with every day.

And also it's not going to add a cent to the deficit. It's going to be paid for.

CABRERA: OK.

JEAN-PIERRE: This is what Democrats are trying to do in Congress right now.

CABRERA: But not all Democrats are on board at this point. We know at least Joe Manchin is still hitting pause on the Build Back Better legislation.

We also have COVID with us still. We have a new variant, Omicron. That throws a lot of uncertainty into the equation. And the president doesn't have his own party on board with the plans to beat the virus. Last night, two Democratic senators, including Manchin, as well as Jon Tester, voted with Republicans for a measure to block President Biden's mandate for businesses with 100-plus employees to require its workers be vaccinated or submit to regular testing.

So when it's a bipartisan vote against the president on this, doesn't that just make it harder for the president to sell his plan or to point a finger at Republicans saying they're the ones playing politics with all this?

(CROSSTALK)

JEAN-PIERRE: Well, you have just laid out a few things there, Ana. Let me try and address a couple of them for you.

So, as you know, with Senator Manchin, the president has a close relationship with him. We have been in touch with his team. We're going to continue to have those conversations. And that's what is important there.

And, look, yes, well, when we say Republicans have not supported it, I just laid out what the economy -- the strength of the economy, it opening back up and the American Rescue Plan because of the president's leadership. Republicans didn't vote for that. They didn't vote for a middle-class tax cut for families with children, no.

And you hear from one of the Republicans saying that these high costs are -- is a gold mine for Republicans. High costs being a gold mine for Republicans, who says that?

And what the president is trying to do is, he's trying to lower those high costs for Americans because he understands their struggle. And so those are the things that we're talking about.

And even in Build Back Better, like I said, it's going to slow -- it's going to bring down, ease inflation. They're not voting for Build Back Better. They want to vote against it. And they want to push and push this narrative of that it's going to do the opposite of what we know economists have told us it's going to do.

[13:15:05]

It's going to, again, lower costs and ease inflation. But we're looking at the vaccination mandates, and what we're calling them is requirements. When you look at the OSHA rule, the OSHA rule is to a test -- or is to get tested once a week?

Why wouldn't we want people that we work with who are not vaccinated to get that test? It's so important to keep people safe and to save lives. And so that's how we look at this process as we're trying to get out of this pandemic, put this pandemic behind us, and slow down the cases with COVID. CABRERA: Karine Jean-Pierre, thank you very much for joining us

today. I really appreciate your time.

JEAN-PIERRE: Thanks, Ana. Thanks for having me.

CABRERA: We have breaking news in the investigation into the deadly January 6 attacks. CNN is learning text messages and e-mails provided by Mark Meadows, President Trump's former chief of staff, reveal what Trump was and was not doing during the riots. Details ahead.

Plus, new evidence that boosters save lives in a very big way, and it's a pair of studies out of Israel revealing stunning results, as more Americans become eligible to get the lifesaving shot.

And the first major lawsuit filed in connection to the deadly school shooting in Michigan. Why the family of a student who was shot in that attack is now suing the school district and others for more than $100 million.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:44]

CABRERA: We have breaking news into CNN.

Text messages and e-mails that former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows turned over to the House select committee investigating the January 6 insurrection reveal what former President Trump was and was not doing during the Capitol attack.

Let's get right to CNN's Jamie Gangel with this new reporting.

What are you learning, Jamie?

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Ana, we have been told by Congresswoman Liz Cheney, vice chair of the committee, that these are -- quote -- "extremely interesting" texts.

Just for context, these are documents that Meadows handed over voluntarily with no claim of privilege at all. And what a source with knowledge has told us is that the documents include text messages, e- mails from Meadows' personal cell phone, his personal e-mail account, and that he was -- quote -- "exchanging with a wide range of individuals while the attack was under way."

So these messages are real-time while the attack is going on. We don't know who they're from. But a lot of people had Mark Meadows' cell phone number and his e-mail. And what we're told by the same source is that these messages relate to -- quote -- "what Donald Trump was doing and not doing during the riot."

So, Ana, these -- eventually, these I believe will be released by the committee. But they really are critical information about what the former president was doing while the Capitol was under attack, while rioters were chanting "Hang Mike Pence."

Bottom line, the source said the committee now has texts and e-mails that Donald Trump probably is not going to like, Ana.

CABRERA: And this is, of course, e-mails and text messages that Meadows turned over voluntarily to the committee prior to him now filing a suit against the committee.

GANGEL: Voluntarily.

CABRERA: And we have been reporting on Trump loyalists like Meadows like Steve Bannon, John Eastman either not showing up to testify or fighting it out in court.

But what have you learned about what's happening behind the scenes in this committee?

GANGEL: So what we found out is the committee is working on two levels, as you said, what we have seen in public.

And, in fact, Congresswoman Liz Cheney just tweeted a few minutes ago, I think we have a copy of it, that the committee has now interviewed nearly 300 witnesses. So what's going on here, Ana, is this is going on behind closed doors.

And as you can see from that tweet, today alone, they are seeing or meeting with for what they say are key witnesses. So what I'm told is, many people are coming in every week, not just to testify, but they are producing documents. And just the way we're seeing today, in some instances, multiple people are coming in, in one day. Some are voluntary. Some are under subpoena. Some are under friendly subpoena.

But the committee is learning a lot that we did not know about. We had heard about 40 people had been subpoenaed. Now we're told there are many more of them out there, Ana.

CABRERA: Jamie, do if they're planning to hold any more public hearings anytime soon?

GANGEL: So what we have heard is we have some guidance that public hearings will probably not happen until after the 1st of the year. I have heard February. I have heard March.

But I think that will be decided more in line with all of this information they're collecting behind the scenes. They have a lot of people to interview. And so I don't think those hearings are going to happen until they get through all of these witnesses.

CABRERA: Jamie Gangel, as always, thank you.

GANGEL: Thank you.

CABRERA: And joining us now is Jennifer Rodgers, CNN legal analyst and a former federal prosecutor.

Jennifer, what's your reaction to Jamie's new reporting about these text messages and e-mails that Meadows was apparently exchanging during the attack?

[13:25:02]

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well it's really fascinating, Ana, because we know that he actually held back thousands of e-mails and texts claiming privileges, even at that time.

So the fact that these are what he decided to release, and that they are so interesting and explosive to the committee makes me want to say, well, I hope the committee actually is able to get a hold of what he decided not to turn over, because that's likely to be even more inculpatory for him and for the president.

CABRERA: Well, right now, Mark Meadows is suing the committee to block enforcement of their subpoena that they issued him for his deposition and potentially other information, as well as the one issued for his phone records.

Listen to his explanation FOX last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK MEADOWS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Obviously, Congress is going to do what they were -- already intended to do, which is hold me in contempt.

The fact is, is that we have been trying for weeks and weeks to make accommodations to share non-privileged -- and I want to stress that -- non-privileged information, while protecting the executive privilege that President Trump has claimed.

We received a subpoena that went to our telecommunication carrier that was so broad that you would have to do some type of legislative contortions to find a legislative reason for that subpoena.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Jennifer, is there any merit to his argument, this idea that they have just overreached here?

RODGERS: No, not at all, Ana.

I mean, you do sometimes see subpoenas that asked for everything under the sun. This is a subpoena for a specific amount of time on communications, information, not the content of the communications, but just who was sending him text messages, from whom he was receiving those messages, what time, on what date. It's pretty limited, actually, as these things go.

So, in terms of the merits of the lawsuit, there really aren't any, but it had two purposes. And I think it has met those purposes. One is to delay. And, again, now we have another lawsuit, another litigation to get through. And two is to really try to ward off this criminal contempt that apparently the committee is going to vote on, and it'll go over to DOJ.

But it makes it even harder, I think, for DOJ to bring that criminal case against Mark Meadows. So that also, I think, was a purpose of this lawsuit to show that he is still trying to sort out what privileges are actually out there.

CABRERA: And I want to turn to some other breaking news, New York's attorney general now seeking a deposition from former President Trump. This is part of a civil fraud investigation into Trump's company, and whether the business manipulated the valuation of its real estate properties, and Trump has not been personally accused of any wrongdoing here.

So I want to make sure we say that, but what do you make of this potential deposition?

RODGERS: Well, with respect to testimony about matters that don't have anything to do with his being the president, the only reason that they couldn't depose him a long time ago was that at the time he was the president, and allegedly too busy to sit for a deposition about this matter.

He's not the president anymore. So there's literally no reason why the attorney general can't subpoena him to testify in this investigation. I'm almost surprised it took them this long. It may just be that they were listening to other witnesses first before they got to him, but there's no excuse he has not to show up and give this testimony. So, hopefully, that will happen promptly.

CABRERA: Jennifer Rodgers, I always appreciate you. Thank you very much for joining us.

RODGERS: Thanks, Ana.

CABRERA: The FDA just gave the green light for younger Americans to get a COVID booster shot. And it comes as a pair of new studies revealed just how effective boosters are in saving lives.

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