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Senators Grill Instagram Chief Over Effects On Young People; Biden, Ukrainian President Speak Amid Russian Invasion Fears; David Perdue Says He Would Not Have Certified 2020 Georgia Results; Parents Of Michigan School Shooting Survivor Sue For $100 Million; Travis Scott Speaks Out About Deadly Music Festival. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 09, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DAN SULLIVAN (R-AK): Why do you think the surgeon general of the United States who just issued a 53-page report on mental and teen suicides said that we should limit social media to help get out of this crisis?

ADAM MOSSERI, HEAD OF INSTAGRAM: Senator, from what I've read of the surgeon general's report so far, it's about a number of different issues. Not just suicides. So to make a connection between one problem that he talks about and one of the recommendations he makes I think is a bit of a lead.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN FUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What you just saw repeated throughout the hearing where you had lawmakers trying to pin down Mosseri, trying to get him to acknowledge or at least, you know, concede the possibility that social media could be contributing to mental health harms, and Mosseri, steadfastly, trying to avoid, you know, acknowledging that that could even be, you know, an option or a potential outcome due some of these technologies -- Victor and Alisyn.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: All right. We'll see if any of this leads to regulation or any change for the industry. That's the point of these hearings to see how to protect kids.

Brian Fung for us in Washington, thank you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: It's a brand-new hour. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

We're going to start with the rising fears of Russian aggression. President Biden just spoke with Ukrainian President Zelensky as his country braces for a potential invasion.

Take a look at these satellite images. They're taken over the past month and they show how Russia has been building up troops and supply lines along the border. One U.S. official was warning that Russia's military capacity on the Ukraine border is much larger and much more lethal than its 2014 invasion of Crimea.

CAMEROTA: In a phone call on Tuesday Biden warned Russian president Vladimir Putin against any escalation, threatening strong economic sanctions. Meanwhile, the U.S. is helping Ukraine boost its self- defense by sending small arms and ammunition that are set to arrive this week.

CNN's Phil Mattingly is at the White House and Matthew Chance is in Kiev, Ukraine.

So, Phil, what do we know about this President Biden phone call with the Ukrainian president?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, we're still waiting for a full readout from the White House. The call started just after 1:30 p.m. Jen Psaki is currently in the middle of a White House briefing right now, so it was still ongoing when she walked into that briefing, but made clear the president had a couple of goals here.

One, to update President Zelensky on President Biden's phone call nearly two hours and one minute with Russian president Vladimir Putin, but also to underscore the U.S. commitment to the sovereignty of Ukraine, and reinforce that there would be very real consequences not just on a unilateral level from the United States but from the U.S. and its European allies should Russia decide to move forward with an invasion.

And obviously that's been the primary concern that's really rattled not just Washington but European capitals as well over the course of the last couple of weeks, as they've seen that troop buildup. Now when it comes to sanctions, there have been a lot of things that have been put on the table but it's worth noting that again this isn't the U.S. operating in isolation.

So when you look at the menu of options that the National Security Council, the Treasury Department, others have been working towards, it has to be viewed through the lens of a unified action, and because of that there are some sense right now from some officials that energy sanctions likely will not be the first ones picked up to utilize if there is an invasion.

Obviously European countries have very different equities when it comes to energy markets as it relates to Russia. Obviously U.S. has its own domestic political concerns related to energy markets as well. So when you look at what might be on the table right now, there is no question sanctions targeting President Putin's inner circle is on the table. Sanctions targeting the financial sector as well.

One thing to keep in mind you mentioned that U.S. military assistance. That's part of a $60 million package the president signed off on earlier this year. More of that will likely be coming in the weeks and months ahead according to U.S. officials if President Putin moves further -- guys.

BLACKWELL: All right, now to Matthew Chance in Kiev. Matthew, tell us more about what the U.S., also what its allies are doing in the region to help Ukraine to prepare for, you know, what could be coming?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, I mean. Phil talked a lot there about, you know, the sort of sanctions, the sort of punishments, the punitive action that the United States president has proposed if Russia were to take the decision to be more assertive or to invade Ukraine, but we've not been talking very much about what President Biden is able to offer President Putin, the Russians, in terms of some kind of measure to allay the Russian security concern about the NATO expansion.

But Moscow says that it wants an end to NATO expansion to the east. Vladimir Putin said that directly to President Biden. And what the meeting sort of contain was a commitment by both sides to form a security structure which is going to be sort of, you know, patted out in the next couple of days and set out in the next couple of days to discuss the security architecture of Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, with a view that's looking at the situation in East Ukraine.

Now that's concerning to the officials, the government here in Ukraine, because obviously that is something, it may involve them sort of making concessions or, you know, going down a path they don't necessarily want to go down.

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And so why there's been so much anxiety here in Kiev about this video call between President Biden and President Putin is because they don't know what President Biden has actually suggested to President Putin in terms of what he's going to try and get the Ukrainians to do. That's why this call with President Zelensky and President Biden right now is so interesting to see what he tells the Ukrainians about what they've got to do to prevent the Ukrainians from invading -- the Russians, sorry.

BLACKWELL: All right, Matthew Chance and Phil Mattingly, for us, thank you very much.

Here's now to discuss with us is the president of the Global Situation Room, Brett Bruen. He's a former director of Global Engagement for the Obama White House and a crisis communication professor at Georgetown University.

Brett, welcome back. I want to pick up with you where Matthew left off. This call between President Biden and President Zelensky, and what he should be asking the Ukrainians to do in part of this negotiation to try to keep Russia on their side of the border.

BRETT BRUEN, PRESIDENT, THE GLOBAL SITUATION ROOM: Yes. This is really high-stakes hockey. And I have to say, the first thing that President Biden is going to remind President Zelensky of is not to do anything that would be able to be used as an excuse, or an opportunity for Putin to justify any action, including further invasion. And when we talk about invasion of Ukraine, let's remember that there are already two eastern provinces as well as Crimea that currently have Russian occupation, albeit Russia hasn't acknowledged it's their soldiers that are on the ground. BLACKWELL: But is Putin waiting for a reason to go in? Is he likely

waiting for some provocation from the Ukrainians or will it just be on his own time?

BRUEN: You know, it's interesting. We're already exactly where Vladimir Putin wants us to be. We're negotiating. As Will and Matt suggested we are having discussions about the limits that we will put on both NATO expansion as well as some of our military and security activities in Eastern and Central Europe.

That's exactly what Putin wants. And I think what we need to do is push the puck back to center ice and stop with this reactive defensive posture because Putin is just going to continue to take advantage of it at every turn.

BLACKWELL: OK. So stopping with the reactive posture. So then that prompts this question -- the president has said that there will be sanctions if Russia crosses the border. There will be increased weapon supplies if Russia crosses that border. Should there be some consequence for the posture now? Should the U.S. be doing something before that?

BRUEN: Yes, that's the concern, Victor, is that in some ways we are not talking about the aggressive measures that Russia is already taking in Ukraine as well as against our own country with the manipulation of our political debate and instead we seem to be, as Jake Sullivan earlier briefing out on the Putin call, said, well, you know, if Putin doesn't invade then maybe we'll let the Nord Stream 2, this famous pipeline from Russia into Germany, go forward. I mean that is not the kind of negotiation that Putin is going to take seriously. It's not the kind of deterrent that he needs to hear.

BLACKWELL: Let me ask you about this Summit for Democracy that's happening virtually at the White House. It says they're bringing together world leaders to galvanize commitments and initiatives across three principal themes -- defending against authoritarianism, fighting corruption and promoting respect for human rights. Then a report back in a year on progress. No enforcement mechanism here.

I know that you think this falls short. How?

BRUEN: It does. It has a feeling a bit of a high school civics class. There are a lot of lectures. There's a lot of information that's being thrown at you but not much in terms of substance, not much in terms of action. And let's not forget the democratic ideals and institutions right now both here in the United States as well as in countries around the world are really under threat. So Biden's got to put a lot more on the table, resources as well as his own time.

BLACKWELL: Should there be some consequence, some mechanism to hold people accountable? What more would you like to see?

BRUEN: Yes. I think the U.S. and Biden in particular as well as perhaps European, Asian allies can really start attaching some strings. Whether it's to trade agreements, to aid, to other opportunities, including visits to the White House that a lot of these leaders want to have, and I think we ought to start setting some standards of what you get if you engage in this kind of authoritarian anti-Democratic behavior.

BLACKWELL: All right, Brett Bruen, always good to have you.

BRUEN: You bet.

CAMEROTA: Democracy is not just under threat overseas but also here in the United States. Sometimes in dramatic insurrection ways, some more subtle.

Former Republican Senator David Perdue, who is running to unseat Georgia's incumbent Governor Brian Kemp, told Axios that if he were governor in 2020 he would not have certified the Georgia election results.

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He said, quote, "I wouldn't have signed it with the information that was available at the time, and not with the information that has come out now. They had plenty of time to investigate this and I wouldn't have signed it until those things had been investigated and that's all we were asking for."

We're joined now by Harry Litman. He's a former U.S. attorney and CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger.

Gloria, to paraphrase Maya Angelou, when someone tells you he's a cheat, believe him. That is something that David Perdue just said out loud. He would have denied the voters of Georgia their rights.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, he's just jumping on the Trump train here. He's trying to win a primary against someone he once liked. The Governor Kemp, whom Trump hates because he certified the election there. And, you know, there were a few lawsuits. They lost all of them. Come on. You know, this is all about Donald Trump.

Now don't forget Perdue ran for the Senate seat. He lost, and by the way, he conceded. So if he thought this was so important at the time, why did he concede, if he thought it could have been a rigged election? Why didn't he hang on the way Donald Trump still believes he's hanging on? You know, so, Perdue is, you know, playing this primary game that he really wants to win and he feels he needs Donald Trump with him.

BLACKWELL: The votes were counted and then audited and then recounted.

BORGER: Yes.

BLACKWELL: And Donald Trump lost Georgia. That's just the end of that.

CAMEROTA: That's right. But I mean, it's -- and maybe David Perdue thinks it's a game but it's democracy that we're talking about.

BLACKWELL: Certainly. Certainly.

BORGER: Right. Right. You would have disenfranchised voters in the state as Brad Raffensperger said. So how --

BLACKWELL: And would have broken the law because --

BORGER: Right.

BLACKWELL: The governor was required to certify.

BORGER: That's right.

BLACKWELL: They had no legal window there. Harry, your thoughts?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: You know, I agree 100 percent but as an illustration of what Alisyn likes to call the bizarro world, you can't get better. David Perdue is a guy who was, roughly speaking, mainstream Republican. He now re-emerges and it's not simply where he given truth serum he knows that he'd be telling a lie. Everything Gloria says is correct, but he'd be telling a lie about the gravest kind of constitutional responsibility a governor or any federal official has, and that is his campaign platform.

We saw the nicely air-brushed commercial that is how he's presenting himself to the people of Georgia. He's making this his absolute article of faith and bringing it out to them. It's not just an embrace of the big lie, it's a big smooch as the number one point on the platform. That is crazy.

CAMEROTA: OK --

BORGER: And can we just say Donald Trump is the one who lost him his seat? Now he's lining up right behind Donald Trump, because Donald Trump was telling people in Georgia the election is rigged. So a lot of would-be Perdue supporters stayed home. But now he's lined up behind the former president. Go figure.

CAMEROTA: Well, that leads us to January 6th because sometimes when people think something is rigged and something has been stolen from them they show up with weapons at the U.S. Capitol. So as you both know, the House Select Committee is investigating this, and today Congresswoman Liz Cheney who's on that committee is tweeting interesting things.

She says, "Here's a thread for those interested in January 6th Committee progress. The committee has already met with nearly 300 witnesses. We hear from four more key figures in the investigation today. We're conducting multiple depositions and interviews every week. We have received exceptionally interesting and important documents from a number of witnesses including Mark Meadows. He has turned over many texts from his private cell phone from January 6th."

She goes on to say, "The investigation is firing on all cylinders. Do not be misled. President Trump is trying to hide what happened on January 6th and to delay and obstruct. We will not let that happen. The truth will come out."

Gloria, why did she feel it was important to say all of that today? Because we see, you know, Mark Meadows now suing the committee. We see

a lot of Trump's top lieutenants saying they're going to plead the Fifth, and you know, that all -- or some may end up suing as well. So, you know, that drags out the process, and anytime you get the process dragged out it's a problem, particularly when you have an election coming up and if Republicans win, they could disband the committee.

So what she is saying is stop. We're making a lot of progress. There are these bright, shiny objects you are all looking at, but we've talked to over 300 witnesses, and we know an awful lot about what Donald Trump was doing and what he was not doing. So just hang in there.

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BLACKWELL: Harry, we know one of the witnesses who spoke with the committee, Chris Krebs, you'll remember, he was the head of CISA, essentially over election security and you remember his quote that this was in 2020 the most secure election in history. An important voice when you want to set the foundation that all of these are lies about broad widespread voter fraud.

LITMAN: It is a really important voice, and that's what many of the 300 will be saying, and they're saying that not simply to reassure the public. But also to put pressure on the Meadows and the Bannons of the world, because the fact remains they don't yet have anyone. Meadows was their closest quarry of someone who could actually say here's what Trump was saying, here's what he was doing on January 6th, and he's now flown away.

And I think it's because he has sued the committee, a very strange move, but I think he is unnerved by their wide-ranging subpoena of Verizon itself.

BORGER: Yes.

LITMAN: Because he had tried to get rid of his phone call. Anyway, yes, I agree. The big lie will be clearly established, but they are still digging deep to get at people who can say things about Trump. The closest thing they've gotten so far, Marc Short, the chief of staff for Mike Pence who was at least in one of the meetings where Trump was trying to conspire with this John Eastman fellow to overturn the results.

CAMEROTA: Gloria, I want to quickly pivot to President Biden's plan for vaccine mandates. You know that those are being challenged in court, and some Democrats are challenging it. I mean, we've heard Republicans, but sometimes I think that because they're being so obstructionist it's hard to know, you know, if the whole country is against it or not. But in this case, we hear from small business owners who don't like it. We hear even from some Democrats.

Here's Senator Tester of Montana. "I've repeatedly heard concerns from Montana small business and community leaders about the negative effect that private business vaccine will have on their bottom lines and our state's economy." What's going to happen here? BORGER: Well, you know, if they vote against it in the Senate and that

passes, first of all, I don't think the House would do the same. Biden has said he would veto it. So essentially these deaths who are voting against it are voting their constituencies, small businesses, because the mandate now goes to businesses, you know, of 100 or more. Right? So you know, those are considered small businesses.

And I think what you hear from Tester and you hear from Manchin, who after all come from very red states, are people saying, you know, I'm hearing that they can't -- you know, they're going to lose employees. They can't hire, and this is going to be a real problem.

So it's an opportunity, it's sort of a gimme vote for these Democrats in a way. It's an opportunity for them to say to their constituents, look, I am pro-vaccine. I am pro-vaccine mandate at the federal level, but I don't want to do it across the board for small businesses, and gain some credibility in their states as being pro-vaccine but against this kind of mandate.

And I don't think the White House would object too much so long as they know that either he'll veto it or, you know, it won't go anywhere.

BLACKWELL: All right, Gloria Borger, Harry Litman, thank you.

BORGER: Sure.

LITMAN: Thanks. Thanks, Gloria.

BLACKWELL: So parents of two students who survived the school shooting in Michigan are suing for more than $100 million each. We'll talk about their claims, next.

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CAMEROTA: Victims' parents timing the first lawsuit related to the deadly school shooting in Oxford, Michigan. The family of a student who was shot in the neck but survived is suing the school district, the principal, two teachers and several other administrators for more than $100 million.

BLACKWELL: And one of the claims in the lawsuit alleges the suspect posted a tweet the night before the shooting that said, and this is a quote, "Now I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. See you tomorrow, Oxford."

Well, CNN has reached out to the superintendent and the students' attorney for comment. Joey Jackson is a CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney.

Joey, and this is true. That means that there were not only the clues the day of the shooting, the day before the shooting, this was online. The school had every red flag that other schools did not have.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah.

BLACKWELL: How do you defend against that?

JACKSON: So, Victor, therein lies the issue. What happens is, is that when you're on notice that something potentially is brewing to what extent do you have a responsibility to protect the fellow students who are out there from that? And so to your point, you can look at the facts with regard to what we knew before as it relates to searching for ammunition and a teacher becoming very concerned about that and saying look, we need to have a conversation, as it relates to a photograph with blood and bullets and, you know, a person who's apparently dead and say, you know what, parents, come on in here.

And of course taking 90 minutes for the parents to come in, they come, they sit down and then the parents pushing back when the school says, you know, look, we want your kid out of here, and what does the school say? You know, parents say, well, no, we want to keep them in. And the school says, fine, nothing to see, and then you don't search the backpack. And

so to your point, you have that evidence and factual scenario in addition to the tweet that you mentioned and others that are referenced in the lawsuit, which go to the question of, did the school do enough in the face of all of this information to protect students, to protect teachers, and just to protect the community? The answer, obviously, is no.

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CAMEROTA: Yes. Obviously, it is. I mean, this is so damning. Things that they lay out here, the accusations in this complaint are so explosive. Obviously, CNN has not been able to corroborate any of the claims in here. We don't have the source materials that these parents are claiming. However, what they basically say is that on November 16th, so many days before this, a group of parents were so concerned that they went to the principal because they had been hearing about threats, they had been seeing stuff online and that they were basically dismissed.

JACKSON: Yes. You know, that's troubling. So just to be clear, and to your point, Alisyn, with regard to the vetting of the information. When you have a lawsuit, any lawsuit can allege any claims. It's another matter to go before the court and actually prove those claims. There'll be depositions, that is when you take parties, you interview them under oath with regard to what they knew, when they knew it. With regard to getting other information, investigatory materials that if true --

CAMEROTA: But from what you read in here --

JACKSON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Do you think that the parents have a solid case?

JACKSON: I do. I mean, the bottom line is that, all I'm saying is that, yes, we know that any lawsuit contains allegations. If those allegations are ultimately proven and the factual scenario, Alisyn, that you've laid out and that we've discussed comes to be true, then there's a big problem here. The other issue, though, that we should talk about is sovereign immunity. Right? The fancy word for, we're not going to hold you responsible, school district, even though you are.

Very briefly, it's a doctrine that really protects the king. Who's the king? You don't want ruinous liability. You don't want frivolous lawsuits against municipalities or anything else. You protect them as a legal matter by saying you cannot sue. The question here will be whether the school district could be sued under any exception. You know, perhaps not, but individual teachers can and then can those individual teachers seek what we call indemnification, right, from the school district.

What does that mean in English? If I'm liable to you, you're liable to me. I was acting in the scope of my employment. Let's see whether the school districts steps up if the suit is meritorious and ultimately prevails.

BLACKWELL: All right, let's turn to one more thing. Travis Scott, after 10 people died at that concert in Houston, many more injured, he spoke with Charlamagne tha God on Breakfast Club. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRAVIS SCOTT, RAPPER/MUSICIAN: You know, people pass out. You know, people, you know, things happen at concerts, but something like that? It's just like --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. People said they collectively, they collectively heard full scream and help every time you stopped the song to get your attention. Did you hear any of those screams?

SCOTT: No, man. And you know, it's so crazy because I'm an artist, too. Like, you know, anytime you can hear something like that you want to stop the show. I stopped it like a couple of times to just make sure everybody was OK, and I just really just go up off to, you know, the fans' energy as a collective. You know, call to response. And I just didn't hear that.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: He says he's the type of person to stop a show but we've known in the past that in some of these shows he's encouraged people to do dangerous things at his concert.

JACKSON: So a couple of things. Number one, obviously it'll be a question of fact as to what he knew and when he knew it, right? Are there the indications there that he's representing that he just didn't know, right? There's a crowd, there's large music. People act and behave in the manner in which they do at different concerts. And his point of saying, hey, look, I didn't know until well after. Had I known I would have stopped this.

But even that aside, Victor and Alisyn, the point becomes, you know, did you or the people who organized that event do enough, know enough and were the events foreseeable enough for you to take the proper precautions such that we're not here speaking about it and such that, you know, 10 people are not dead and many others injured? And that's a critical question.

BLACKWELL: All right. Joey Jackson, thank you as always.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Joey.

JACKSON: Thanks, Victor. Thanks.

CAMEROTA: All right, COVID cases and hospitalizations are rising across the country. The FDA just gave the green light for teenagers 16 and 17 years old to get the COVID booster. But some parents are still saying that they're concerned about vaccinating their kids. We'll dive into all that, next.

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