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CIA Overhauling Spies; Michigan Sees Fourth Wave; Assange Can Be Extradited; Biden Assures Zelensky of Assistance. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 10, 2021 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:30:44]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: New reporting by CNN reveals that the CIA is quietly overhauling how it manages and trains its network of spies. Multiple sources familiar with the move say it is part of a broader effort to transition away from two decades of a focus on counterterrorism and focus more closely on adversaries led by China and Russia.

CNN reporter Katie Bo Lillis, it's her reporting to discuss.

Katie, how broadly and how quickly is this change happening?

KATIE BO LILLIS, CNN REPORTER: Yes, Jim, so what we've learned is that the CIA is kind of reorganizing the way that it manages the careers of its human intelligence collectors, its actual spies. And this sounds like a really kind of in the weeds obscure HR policy change, but it can actually have, over the long run, a pretty significant impact on how well the agency is able to develop the kind of intelligence officers that it needs to get after adversaries like China or like Russia.

So, what does this mean specifically? It means that the CIA's mission centers are going to have a little bit more say so over the long-term career trajectory of their officers, over thing like the languages they learn and the assignments that they get and even where they're sent. And so I'm told that by my sources that this isn't just about China, but it is really important in the context of the challenge of China for the CIA.

[09:35:03]

China's what intelligence collectors call a hard target. It's really opaque. It's tough to get into. You really need officers who have this kind of deep cultural and regional expertise to kind of get after the problem. And you need to be able to send them where they're needed. You need to be able to send them to, say, West Africa, where China has a lot of investment and the United States wants to be able to see what they're up to.

So, bottom line, Jim, in a lot of ways this is a return to a really traditional way of thinking about espionage that's a little bit different from how the CIA might have been focusing on the counterterrorism problem which had a little bit more of a paramilitary element to it over the last 20 years.

It also comes at a moment in which human spying, traditional human intelligence gathering, is getting infinitely more difficult for everybody, not just the United States.

Take a listen to what CIA Director Bill Burns had to say just earlier this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BURNS, CIA DIRECTOR: The era of ubiquitous technical surveillance makes it a lot harder to conduct traditional espionage as well. And so what we need to do is transform everything from the way we recruit case officers to the way we train them, to the way we operate in very complicated, you know, foreign landscapes, to the way we communicate as well. We are not in a defensive crouch today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LILLIS: Yes, so bottom line here, Jim, you know, things are getting a lot tougher for the CIA to sort of field spies out into the world. And what my sources -- gone are the days essentially in which a case officer can just go to the border of a new country, pick up a new passport, assume a new identity and go about his life.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

LILLIS: And that's part of this change.

SCIUTTO: Yes, a lot harder to hide with things like facial recognition technology, right?

LILLIS: Precisely.

SCIUTTO: No matter how many fake mustaches you put on.

Katie Bo Lillis, thanks very much.

SCIUTTO: My pleasure.

HILL: Turning now to Covid. The U.S. is at the beginning of what could become a serious winter surge. New infections up more than 50 percent from a month ago. Hospitalization rates also soaring. And that's really an important place to focus.

SCIUTTO: ICU beds, 80 percent full, nearly one in five being used for coronavirus patients. The trend especially bad in the Midwest where hospitals are now under extreme pressure.

CNN's Miguel Marquez reports from a hospital in Michigan where health workers, and this may sound familiar, stretched to their limits.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jim, Erica, we were at this same hospital, Sparrow Health in Lansing back in April, during the third coronavirus wave here across Michigan, and it is now the fourth wave and it is worse than ever.

Let me hit you up with one number, the Health and Hospitals Association for Michigan says that in the last 30 days alone, hospitalizations across the state have risen by 88 percent. It is a shocking number. And with Christmas and New Year's coming up, there's even greater concern. One of the biggest issues they have right now is staffing. Shortages of nurses, doctors and hospital staff across the entire state, many hospitals going to the highest level of triage, code red, which means they don't take patients from other areas, and they have to cancel some elective procedures.

All of this taking a massive toll on staff. And they are leaving and not going to work as much in nursing and healthcare in part because of the stress of the job, they're also some of them taking traveling nursing jobs because they just pay a heck of a lot more.

We spoke to one nurse at Sparrow about how stress in her life manifests itself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIELLE WILLIAMS, RN, COVID UNIT, SPARROW HEALTH SYSTEM: It used to just be on the days when I'd come to work I'd be stressed out. But now it kind of carries over to like knowing I have to come into work and do this. I love my job. I love what I do and I can't see myself doing anything else, but it's just the heaviness that is here and working in these situations with these people who, before they walked in the door they had a normal life, they were healthy people, they're out celebrating Thanksgiving. And then now they're here with a mask on their face, teary eyed, staring at me, asking me if they're going to live or not. Desperation. And it's heartbreaking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: And here's yet another stressor on the entire hospital system across the state. The flu. It is much more active this year than it was last year. So they're starting to see more flu cases. That is also putting a stress on hospital beds across the state.

Look, the chief medical officer for Sparrow Health says that even if you get your first vaccine shot today, you may not have full protection by Christmastime, but at least you have some.

Jim. Erica.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: Yes. So important. Every little bit really does make a difference.

Miguel, thanks.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, Julian Assange is poised to be extradited to the United States. How soon we could see a trial? That's coming up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:44:37]

HILL: Developing this morning, American authorities have won their latest bid to extradite WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange to the United States. The U.K. high court overturned a British judge's ruling that Assange should not be extradited. The 50-year-old Australian has been charged in the U.S. over the Espionage Act for his role in publishing classified military and diplomatic cables.

SCIUTTO: CNN's senior national security correspondent Alex Marquardt joins us now.

[09:45:01]

Alex, so this is not the first time the U.S. has tried to do this. Is this final, right? Is this going to happen? And how soon do we think?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Jim and Erica, this is not yet a done deal for the U.S. Department of Justice, which, of course, has been trying to get their hands on Julian Assange for years now.

The Assange team made clear that they will be appealing this. There is an appeals process. They will appeal to the U.K. Supreme Court. They have to do that within the next two weeks.

Assange's fiance called today's ruling a grave miscarriage of justice.

What essentially happened was back in January a U.K. judge ruled that Julian Assange would be a suicide risk. And if he were to be extradited to the United States, that he would not be treated humanely. So, in response to appeal that ruling, the United States sent over four assurances to say that, in fact, Assange would be treated humanely, and the high court today upheld -- agreed with those assurances. They are that Assange will not be made the subject of what's called special administrative measures while he's in a U.S. prison, he will not be held at a maximum security prison here in the U.S. before or after trial. The U.S. will consent to an application by Assange to serve his sentence in Australia, if he is eventually convicted. And then, while in custody here in the U.S., Assange will receive, quote, appropriate clinical and psychological treatment.

So the judges in this high court issued a direction that this -- that the U.K. home minister, the British home minister, go ahead with this extradition to the United States.

So, as I said, it is not a done deal. But a British high court upholding these -- this -- these assurances by the United States that if extradited here that Assange would be treated humanely.

Erica and Jim.

HILL: Alex Marquardt, appreciate it. Thank you. New details this morning as well about a crucial call between

President Biden and his Ukrainian counterpart, President Vladimir Zelensky.

SCIUTTO: Yes, sources tell CNN that Zelensky suppressed his frustration to Biden yesterday, saying the threat of economic sanctions is not enough to deter a possible Russian invasion of Ukraine.

CNN's Matthew Chance joins us now from Kiev.

And, Matthew, I wonder how widespread that disappointment is among Ukrainian officials and what do they want to see to properly deter Russia?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, I mean exactly. I mean very publicly the Ukrainian government is saying that they're very grateful to the United States for the continued support, that President Biden is offering the Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity. But, you know, privately, you know, behind closed doors, one official who was (INAUDIBLE) to that conversation, who was aware of that conversation, told me that when President Biden set out what he discussed with President Putin on the video call a few days ago in terms of imposing tough sanctions against Russia if it were to invade, President Zelensky of Ukraine said, look, you know, we don't believe in prescriptive sanctions. We think that sanctions should be up front. We think they should have a delayed implementation perhaps, but then also the ability to have them rolled back if in the words of this official that Russia behaves.

There was also some frustration expressed, in fact a request has been made by the Ukrainians, they say, for more weapons, lethal weaponry, defensive weaponry, they call it, in order to prosecute the war against the Russian-backed rebels in the east of the country and to defend against (INAUDIBLE) invasion. But those weapons have still not arrived even though in the U.S.' own intelligence a Russian invasion could come as early as next month. There was also a discussion about NATO. President Biden, this is according to the official with knowledge of the phone call with Vladimir Zelensky, saying that President Biden made it clear to President Zelensky that Russia was not going to be given a veto on Ukrainian membership, but he said that he didn't see Ukraine joining until at least 2030.

HILL: Wow, 2030.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: A lot to take away from that.

Matthew Chance, appreciate it. Thank you.

Well, any moment now the casket holding the body of the late Senator Bob Dole expected to depart Capitol Hill for Washington National Cathedral. Up next, we'll let you know who will be a part of that private invitation only funeral happening soon.

Stay with us.

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[09:53:45]

HILL: Well, this morning, final good-byes to the late Senator Bob Dole in Washington. He died on Sunday at age 98. These are live pictures there. At any moment, we expect to see the former presidential candidate, senator, World War II veteran, we expect his casket will soon be arriving at Washington National Cathedral, will be making its way, of course, from the Capitol, where he had been lying in state since yesterday.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Manu Raju is live from Capitol Hill.

And, Manu, the president will be there, the vice president, as well as former President Bill Clinton, three former vice presidents, Quayle, Cheney, the Pences as well. Who else at today's invitation-only funeral?

MANU RAJU, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, spanning both administrations -- multiple administrations, both parties speaking about someone who is a true political giant, could reach across the aisle, and really had deep relationships among Democrats and Republicans, something that is just unusual in today's very polarized, political times.

But the -- it is a star-studded list of officials who are coming to attend this private service in the Washington Cathedral This is Washington National Cathedral. Among the people, the Bidens, also Kamala Harris and multiple people from the Biden administration, the Pences will be there in addition to Dan Quayle, the former vice president, and Dick Cheney, the former vice president under the Bush administration, of course.

[09:55:08]

And then we expect to hear comments from members on both sides of the aisle. We hear -- we'll hear President Joe Biden will speak to this audience, as well as former Senators Pat Roberts and Tom Daschle, who was the Democratic leader at the time when Bob Dole was the top of his conference.

Now, just in a matter of moments, we do expect the family to arrive here in the Capitol. At that point, then the casket will be brought down the steps behind me into the hearse that will take them, a procession about four miles up to the Washington National Cathedral, and expect a lot what we heard over the last day or so, someone who was -- dedicated his life to service, from World War II, to the time in the House, to his time in the Senate, and then even after he left in 1996, dedicating his time to helping veterans and the disabled and the like. So a lot of people here will be giving some moving tributes that we expect not just today but in the days ahead too.

Guys.

SCIUTTO: Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

We will, of course, bring you that live as we see it.

Please, do stay with us. CNN's special coverage of the funeral service begins in the next hour. We'll bring you the full ceremony.

HILL: But, first, inflation spiking to a 39-year high. And we're going to get reaction just ahead from White House economic adviser Heather Boushey. Stay with us for that as well.

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