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Dr. Anthony Fauci is Interviewed about Vaccines; Tornadoes Tear Through Mayfield, Kentucky; Tornadoes Tear Through Bowling Green, Kentucky; Manchin Suggests Changes to Build Back Better; Michigan Shooting Parents Appear in Court. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 14, 2021 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Me now to discuss this and many issues, Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

Dr. Fauci, good to have you back on the program.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Thank you, Jim. Good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: So, first, last week you were on CNN and you said that the NIH lab was expecting to have results early next week, that is this week, on vaccine efficacy against omicron. Is there new data and what does it show?

FAUCI: Well, you know, it -- we're going to be talking about it tomorrow. But it mostly confirms what you have been hearing that have come from South Africa, as well as the U.K. The data you showed up on the screen, Jim, is correct.

What happens is that if you get two doses of a Pfizer or a Moderna, the protection against infection itself is dramatically down. However, what is the somewhat encouraging news is that the protection against hospitalization and severe disease, although it goes down to around 70 percent from around 93 percent, when you get boosted, it brings it back up to the level of pretty good protection, which is a very strong argument for people getting their boosters.

So, omicron is going to be a challenge because it spreads very rapidly and the vaccines that we use, the regular two-dose mRNA, don't do very well against infection itself.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

FAUCI: But we're (INAUDIBLE), particularly if you get the boost, it's pretty good.

SCIUTTO: Should we then be looking at this really as a three-shot vaccine when it comes to Pfizer? That that boost is not just an advantage, but might be a requirement? FAUCI: Well, again, there's a difference there, Jim. And, you know,

it's a sensitive issue because of the legal issues about what is going to be a requirement that is now under litigation. The situation is there's no doubt that we can say that optimal protection when you're dealing with an mRNA is with three doses. There's no doubt about that. Both for the durability of the protection, as well as the protection against the omicron variant. So, there's little doubt about that among those of us who work in this field.

SCIUTTO: We are seeing, though, an organization like the NFL basically move forward to now require that third shot. The thing is, many companies, private companies, as well as federal government agencies, they look to the CDC, they look to the federal government. Should the federal government be leading on this in terms of requiring boosters?

FAUCI: Well, again, there's a difference. It's a subtle difference, Jim, between requirement and optimal. I can tell any organization that asks me, what's the optimal to protect ourselves? Be it your athletes or be it the people in -- there's no doubt that the optimal protection is going to be with three doses of an mRNA.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

OK, let's move on to another treatment, which is showing progress and promise, and that is a Covid pill. This morning, Pfizer released updated results for its Covid-19 pill. It shows cut the risk of hospitalization or death by 89 percent when given to high-risk adults, though, within a few days of the first symptoms.

Now, obviously, I don't want to suggest this is a substitute for vaccines. You've been very clear about that. Folks should still get vaccinated. But for the folks who are not getting vaccinated, about a quarter of the country at this point, for those people, is this pill potentially a life saver?

FAUCI: Well, the pill is potentially a life saver for everyone, Jim, vaccinated and unvaccinated people, because, as we know, even vaccinated people who are in a higher risk group, the elderly, those with underlying conditions, can have serious disease leading to hospitalization.

The good news about this morning, and I was on the phone with the chief scientific officer of the company just literally a couple of hours ago, the good news about that is that the preliminary data showed about an 89 percent protection from hospitalization or death if given within the first three days of symptoms. Now that the complete full final data set are in, it's just as good if not better. So that's really good news. So it's holding up under larger numbers of people. So they're going to be submitting that to the FDA and hopefully we'll get some action on that soon.

SCIUTTO: As we noted earlier, it's been a year to the day since vaccines first came out. But it's also well more than a year into this pandemic. And we were looking at the death toll and the first nine months of the pandemic from February -- from the first death on February 29, 2020, to nine months later, 269,000 deaths, a little bit more. And in the last nine months, very close to that, 255,000. And those are nine months in which the vaccine, a highly effective vaccine has been available and free and distributed around the country.

Why hasn't it gotten any better in terms of the overall death toll, and does it surprise you?

[09:35:04]

FAUCI: Well, it doesn't because there are two things that are converging here, Jim. One is we're dealing with delta. We didn't have delta a year ago. We're dealing with a much more formidable virus in every respect. Super imposed upon that, if we had optimally implemented a vaccine program, those numbers would have been down. Those are -- many of them, not all of them, many of them are unnecessary deaths because we have up to 60 million people in this country who are eligible to be vaccinated who have not gotten vaccinated. We've got to be doing better than that if we really want to get this thing over with.

SCIUTTO: Dr. Paul Offit, who I know you know, he's on the FDA adviser committee, he was on the show last week and he made a point, which is -- he's not alone in this, that there's a possibility that omicron takes over delta in this country, more transmissible, but causing less severe illness.

And I know it's early in this, so we don't want to get ahead of where the data is. But is that a possible outcome here, that omicron becomes dominant, but there's an advantage in that it's less dangerous?

FAUCI: That is a possibility. But let me give you the details about where we get those data. Mostly from South Africa. So in South Africa they're getting a very, very pronounced spread, almost a vertical spike of infection. And yet when you look at the early data, it does appear that there is a diminution in the severity as expressed by hospitalization.

The real question is, is that an inherent diminution of virulence of the virus or is it because there are so many people in the population who have already been infected and now have residual post infection immunity, which is not protecting them from getting infected, but is protecting them from getting severe disease.

Whatever it is, the disease seems to be less severe. Whether it's inherently less pathogenic as a virus or whether there's more protection in the community. We're just going to have to see when it comes in the United States. And for sure, Jim, it is going to be dominant in the United States given its doubling time.

SCIUTTO: Dr. Anthony Fauci, thanks so much, as always.

FAUCI: Good to be with you, Jim. Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: One quick note, Pfizer's CEO Albert Bourla will be on with our colleague, Kate Bolduan, later this morning. You can see him at 11:00 a.m. right here on CNN.

Erica.

HILL: We'll be looking for that one.

Still to come this morning, more than 100 people remain missing in Kentucky as recovery efforts continue across the state. We're going to take you live to Mayfield. President Biden preparing to visit. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:42:25]

HILL: President Joe Biden is expected to visit tornado-ravaged areas of Kentucky tomorrow. The state confirming at least 74 people have died, more than 100 are still missing.

SCIUTTO: In Mayfield, which was just devastated, devastated by these tornadoes, officials say they are confident that no employees remain in the rubble of that torn up candle factory. One man who helped rescue people there told CNN he's still haunted by what he saw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM SLACK, NAVY VETERAN WHO HELPED RESCUE PEOPLE FROM CANDLE FACTORY: It was horrific. If I talk about it a little bit too long, it will bring tear to your eyes. As a community that's very close. The wind was still going. Power lines, there was a couple of gas leaks, people everywhere. It looked like a mound of ants when you kick it over, everybody just trying to help, trying to get in and get people out safely. Very dark. Eerie. It was -- it was -- it was bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: It was bad. No doubt.

CNN correspondent Brian Todd, he is live this morning in Mayfield.

Brian, you know, looking at years, right, to get over this. What do folks need right now?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim and Erica, they need shelter. They need food. In a lot of cases they're getting it. But there are complications there.

Nd I'm going to show you kind of what we're looking at here as we talk about the recovery effort. You're going to get a multidimensional view of the salvaging and clearance efforts down Broadway Street here in Mayfield. Our photojournalist, Rafael Rodriguez (ph), will train his camera past the shovels clearing debris there and you've got other shovels, forklifts, cranes all the way down the street. You can see those operations as they're frenetically just trying to clear away as much of the rubble as they can. But you also get a sense from this view of just how tough that's going to be and how long it's going to take. It's going it take weeks if not months to clear all this stuff out. You know, we talked about active search and rescue operations. You've

still got more than 100 people missing throughout this region from this tornado. So, in some cases, like in scenes you're seeing behind me, not here, but in other places, they have to do stuff like this just to try to get to people who might be trapped under some of the rubble. So, it really is very, very dangerous.

Right now, we can update you, 74 people dead just in Kentucky. The age -- the range of age of victims ranges from two months to 86 years old. You've still got more than 100 people missing, as we said. And, again, scenes like this kind of give you an idea, guys, of just how tough it is, a road ahead for them to clear rubble, try to get to people, try to get people in shelters and things like that.

[09:45:03]

It's really just beginning here.

HILL: Yes, tough and long, just beginning, as you say.

Brian, appreciate it.

Well, just about 130 miles to the east in Bowling Green, officials say at least 13 people are unaccounted for. The coroner's office has confirmed the deaths of at least 15 people.

SCIUTTO: So many communities affected here.

CNN correspondent Nick Valencia, he is touring the damage in Bowling Green.

Nick, we've heard a lot about Mayfield. Tell us what you're seeing there.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Grief and despair, Jim, as these residents slowly begin to come back to their homes and reflect on what they've been through. You know, this was an EF-3 tornado that ripped through here. And days later you're still hearing this eerie sound of fire alarms going off in the homes. What's left of them anyway.

And in this subdivision, block after block, lined with debris of those homes that were wiped away.

I was speaking to the police here in Bowling Green this morning and they say of the 15 people who were killed by this tornado, most of them came from right here in this subdivision. And that includes seven small children.

The woman who lives here, Latonya Webb, said she was convinced she was going to die. Just look at what's left of her home. She was inside as the roof was being ripped away. She tells me that she still doesn't know how she made it out alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LATONYA WEBB, BOWLING GREEN RESIDENT: I watched some people die that didn't make it. And my question is why? Why? I keep saying why. The aftermath, after the tornado was worse. It was so many people crying for help. And I could hear people praying. And I could hear people saying, Lord, help us. And I -- and I come out without a scratch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: She said she was crying tears of joy while talking to us because, you know, she has her life still and she knows so many others don't.

There's a lot of survivors' guilt here in this community just because they know, looking around, how bad it was. You know, there are still 13 people missing here. And today that's going to be the focus for police, to go through and clear out this debris, make sure that there's no signs of life left behind.

Jim. Erica.

SCIUTTO: And then the long, long process of rebuilding.

Nick Valencia in Bowling Green, thanks so much.

Still ahead, President Biden negotiates with Senator Joe Manchin -- sounds familiar -- to get Build Back Better on the Senate floor by New Year's. Why the senator continues to hold out. Will he budge? We'll discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:52:07]

HILL: West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin now suggesting that major changes will be needed for him to support President Biden's Build Back Better plan.

SCIUTTO: The president and Manchin spoke yesterday about the West Virginia Democrat's concerns, continuing concerns over the size and scope of the bill. Not the first time. But accommodating his demands could end hopes of getting the bill passed in the Senate before Christmas, maybe beyond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Are you telling me you can't do it this year?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): No, no, we just had -- we're just talking -- we're just still talking about different iterations, that's all.

RAJU: Do -- do you think it's possible to do it this year?

Senator?

MANCHIN: Anything's possible here.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SCIUTTO: CNN congressional correspondent Lauren Fox joins us now.

And, Lauren, I mean, it took a lot of heavy lifting to get this through the House in its current form. What changes are we talking about from Manchin here and do others back those changes?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's the key question here. Hope springs eternal from Democratic leaders who are optimistic they can push this through before the Christmas holiday. But Senator Joe Manchin, obviously, a key roadblock in all of these discussions.

He spoke with the president yesterday over the phone. And they had a productive conversation. And that was a readout from both Manchin's office and the White House.

And yet there is still no promise that Senator Manchin is making that he's going to support this bill. Instead, he does have deep concerns that he made clear yesterday fall under the categories of inflation. That inflation report last week startled him and he said it was a problem for him.

He also has concerns about moving too quickly. So, whether or not that categorizes moving before Christmas as too quickly, we still don't know.

But, Senator Joe Manchin is someone that all of his Democratic colleagues are watching very closely. And, you know, it's always a delicate balance. They can't pressure him too much. They can't try to convince him too much. They have to let him stay at the table with the president. And, right now, all hopes are in the president to try to get him to yes.

Jim and Erica.

HILL: We'll see if it works this time.

Lauren Fox, appreciate it. Thank you.

Still to come, the parents of a Michigan teen accused of killing four classmates last month in court today. What to watch for, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:58:42]

SCIUTTO: The parents of the teenager charged in the Oxford, Michigan, school shooting are set to appear in court this afternoon. James and Jennifer Crumbley have both pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter. Prosecutors say they gave their son access to the gun he's accused of using to kill four classmates, wound seven others.

HILL: CNN crime and justice correspondent Shimon Prokupecz joining us now.

So what are we expecting from today's hearing, Shimon? SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, first is,

they will be appearing in person, which is different than all the other appearances. Certainly their son appeared yesterday in a virtual hearing where prosecutors said that they already handed over 500 pages of documents to his attorneys. We expect the same today from prosecutors in this case to talk about some of the evidence and the discovery that they've handed over so that they can begin the next steps in this case.

We're also waiting to see if they're going to face any additional charges. Of course, they set off a whole chain of events after they didn't appear for their arraignment, that they weren't able to be arrested when they fled and police had to set off and search for them. There was a manhunt, and they were eventually found. So we're waiting to see if they're going to face any additional charges in that case.

Interestingly enough, of course, now they have no say in their son's defense. The court yesterday appointed a lawyer, a guardian to represent their son.

[10:00:03]

They have seemingly abandoned him, have had no contact with him, have not seen him or spoken to him.