Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Newly Released Texts to Meadows; Holding Meadows in Contempt of Congress; Biden Homes for Build Back Better; Moderna Loses Efficacy Against Delta; Dr. William Schaffner is Interviewed about Omicron. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 15, 2021 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: To make other people smile. Some way to get through this. And they're just all stepping forward. It really is pervasive and it's infectious.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: It is.

BERMAN: All right, CNN's coverage continues right now.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Wednesday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill.

The fate of former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is now in the hands of the Justice Department. The House voting overnight to recommend the DOJ pursue criminal charges against Meadows after his decision to quit cooperating with the January 6th committee. Now, just two Republicans broke ranks in that vote. Both of them members of that committee, Representatives Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger. They joined Democrats in the House to vote for the referral.

SCIUTTO: Meadows, a former member of Congress from South Carolina -- North Carolina himself, is the first former lawmaker to be held in contempt -- criminal contempt of Congress in nearly 200 years. Just before last night's vote, the panel unveiled more alarming text messages sent to Meadows, including a text from a currently sitting lawmaker, as yet unidentified, revealing that lawmakers in the White House discussed plans to overturn the election as soon as the day after November 3rd, Election Day.

We're going to have more on that in a moment.

Here is Congresswoman Liz Cheney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Some of those text messages, Madam Speaker, came from members in the chamber right now. Members who understood that a violent assault was underway at the Capitol. Members who pleaded with the chief of staff to get the president to take action. Mark, one member said, he needs to stop this now. In all caps, tell

them to go home. POTUS has to come out firmly and tell the protesters to dissipate. Someone is going to get killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Also this hour, President Biden departing for Kentucky to survey damage. He'll meet, of course, with victims in the wake of the deadly tornado outbreak that devastated the area over the weekend.

First, though, we do want to get to CNN's senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

So, Paula, let's take a look at where we stand this morning.

So, the DOJ now weighing this contempt charge for Mark Meadows. Of course, one of the big question is how quickly could they act.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It's a great question. But this case is a lot more difficult than the one they have brought against another Trump ally, Steve Bannon, who completely refused to engage with the committee at all and defied his subpoena. Whereas Meadows, he did, for a time, engage with the committee. He handed over thousands of pages of documents before suddenly ceasing cooperation and insisting that he could not come in and answer questions because of executive privilege.

But the committee argues that clearly you didn't think all of the materials you've already handed over were protected by privilege. So, come in, and at least answer questions about what you've already shared with us. If you think there's a privilege issue, you can raise it to that specific question.

And it's been really interesting to watch the committee over just the past three days really become a lot more aggressive about sharing what it is that they've learned from Meadows and what they want to ask him about.

Last night, before the vote, they shared more text messages to and from Meadows, including one on November 4th, that you referenced earlier. Now, this is from a lawmaker to Meadows and it says, quote, here's an aggressive strategy. Why can't the states of Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and other Republican-controlled state houses declare this is BS, where conflicts and election not called that night, and just send their own electors to vote and have it go to SCOTUS.

So here we have a lawmaker, the day after the election, already trying to lay out a plan, a blueprint for how to undermine the outcome of the election. This is also, of course, a blueprint that is being used, forward-looking, at other upcoming elections and how to undermine those as well.

The committee also revealed another text message suggesting the secretive nature of some of Meadows communications, instructing the recipient to move the conversation to the encrypted app Signal. Now, that's a real problem because you have one of the most powerful men in Washington, the chief of staff, taking his conversations with a lawmaker to an encrypted app so there's no record.

Now, going forward, there are a lot of questions for the committee about when or if they will name the lawmakers in these conversations. Committee chairman says they'll think about that in the coming weeks.

SCIUTTO: So, Meadows is not providing testimony. Others are. Some that we don't know -- know about yet.

What are we learning from other testimony and other progress the committee is making in its investigation?

REID: That's right. While they have been stone walled by a few key Trump allies, they keep reminding people that they've talked to over 300 other witnesses and more continue to come in. For example, just yesterday, the committee heard from former Vice President Mike Pence's one-time national security adviser Keith Kellogg. And his attorney told CNN that, look, he is not raising executive privilege and he will cooperate with the committee.

They also heard yesterday from Dustin Stockton, one of the organizers of rallies on the 5th and the 6th.

[09:05:01]

Today, they'll also talk to Dustin Stockton's girlfriend, Jennifer Lawrence. Not that one. And, again, they have other people that they are engaging with and they've postpone those interviews to continue to work with them to try to come up with some way to have them cooperate.

HILL: Ah, so much more to go and yet so interesting what is already there.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: Paula Reid, appreciate it. Thank you.

Also with us this morning, senior CNN legal analyst, former federal prosecutor, Laura Coates, and Scott Jennings, former special assistant to President George W. Bush.

Good to have both of you with us this morning.

Laura, let's just pick up on where we stand this morning in terms of Mark Meadows.

So, referred, right, to the Justice Department. Based on what we saw with Steve Bannon, and I guess the question is more, can we take anything away from what we saw with Steve Bannon in terms of how that was handled and what we can expect moving forward with Mark Meadows?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Now, remember, there was a long process in terms of getting to the point where the Department of Justice actually put him before a grand jury in the sense of that case before a grand jury. They were largely probably contemplating what was going to come after that, how many more people were going to copycat the Steve Bannon approach. And so I would assume that their contemplative state of mind is actually going to expedite the future discussions, including one right now.

But, oddly enough, I mean, Steve Bannon, of course, and Mark Meadows are in very different positions. Steve Bannon never having been part of the administration since 2017. Counter that to Mark Meadows, the chief of staff for the president of the United States. Mark Meadows had a much stronger, more valid claim about the assertion of privilege.

The trick here, of course, though is, he's already provided documents when it comes to content that has nothing to do with executive privilege. And for that too he has refused to actually abide by and comply with the subpoena. And so he's made a more difficult case for himself to be able to say that the privilege will attach to everything, and he's made it easier a case for the Department of Justice who probably thought, look, for the institution of the presidency, we know there will be instances when you want to have the candid conversations with top advisers, the chief of staff. Mark Meadows has taken that ammunition that he once had away.

SCIUTTO: Scott Jennings, there is more evidence, as you see these texts, these communications revealed, that a plan to overturn, to reject the results of elections in several states being discussed from the day after the election.

By the way, just to remind folks, on January 6th, the night of the assault on the Capitol, two-thirds of sitting Republican lawmakers voted to decertify one or another or two states' electors.

Should the GOP be policing its own on this, members of the party, sitting lawmakers who took part in this attempt? And should they, in your view, face consequences?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, ultimately, members of Congress, like all elected officials, face consequences from voters, right? I mean you go home and you talk to your constituents about what you did and they ask you questions and they render judgments on you every two years or six years in the case of senators. So, I think in some cases people will face questions from their own constituents. And to be honest, politically, some of these people represent districts that probably approve of what they did. I mean that's a -- that's a stark reality of this.

So, I -- I don't --

SCIUTTO: Is that right, Scott? Is that -- approve -- approve of them attempting to overturn the election? Are you satisfied with that as a long serving Republican, who I should note for our viewers, recognized the results of the elections as some of these lawmakers did not?

JENNINGS: Well, no, no, I -- I mean, as you know, I --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

JENNINGS: That very day, on these very airwaves --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

JENNINGS: I saw this for what it was and still see it for what it was. And it's very obvious what happened. A mob was whipped up. They were sent into a frenzy. They went to the Capitol, and they thought they had the power to intimidate, threaten or worse people into changing the outcome of the election. That's what they thought. And they were whipped into this frenzy by people -- we all know who did it and we all know who's responsible. I mean there's no real mystery here about what happened.

But, yes, I mean, if you just look at the polling and you look at the attitude of some of the Republicans out there about this, they think -- some people they it was justified, some people think it's overblown. I mean, you know, you've seen all the things that people say about it.

Of course none of this is correct. And -- and I think at some point the party is going to have to reckon with it. I -- I don't think, frankly, this is going to work politically for the Democrats in the midterm. But the next presidential election, if Donald Trump runs again and asks the country for the mantle of leadership again, he's going to have to talk about the fact that he quite -- in my opinion, quite likely violated his oath of office the last time he held the office. And so that -- that will be a reckoning moment for the party at that point.

HILL: It will be interesting to see if he would actually answer that question and whether it would be answered with facts.

Laura, before we let you go, what was fascinating to me was watching Liz Cheney, over the course of the last two days, right, you as a former federal prosecutor, she was so clear in her language, as we talked about. She was basically reading from a criminal code. She was making a case. But it wasn't just a case about Mark Meadows, the case that she was making. She was very clearly talking about the former president.

[09:10:01]

How effective do you think she was?

COATES: Extremely effective. But she was also talking about other people who were within those very chambers. I mean the idea of saying there are sitting members, not identifying who were the sources of these texts, alluding to the fact that there was more. I mean this was a clear indication that for anyone who believes that the January select committee may have been criticized for this is somehow singularly focused on just one individual, as if everyone was just - was just following the orders of one, she essentially made the case that there were far more many people who were complicit. They weren't just acquiescing, they were complicit in some form or fashion, or contributing to the aftermath of it.

And so just as much as we saw on January 7th, from members of Congress who were really concerned about being able to trust one another, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez spoke about this quite eloquently, the idea of the distrust that was brewing and continuing to brew among their own colleagues because they were concerned about who had, as Scott talked about, whipped up the frenzied mob. You know, now you see that even more clearly that those concerns were actually valid, that there are people among them who, under the guise of leadership, were actively involved in trying to undermine the election, a fair and free one. And so I think she made a very, very compelling case. It's up to the Department of Justice, of course, to actually prosecute matters though.

SCIUTTO: Laura Coates, thanks so much.

And Scott Jennings, to you as well.

And folks at home might not know, you're coming to us from Kentucky now because your family, your hometown devastated by these tornadoes. I know you lost a lot of memories. Thankfully, no relatives. But we do want to say, we are sending our thoughts, our prayers to you and your family.

JENNINGS: Thank you.

Dawson Springs is getting a visit from President Joe Biden today. And looking for any hope they can find.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

JENNINGS: But it's a rough scene down there and I appreciate everybody who's brought attention to it. There's still ways to have -- offer relief if you want to help. Cnn.com -- I have a piece on cnn.com today about it and there's a list on there about how you can be part of the relief effort if you're so inclined. And thanks to everyone around the world who's done that.

SCIUTTO: Yes, we're going to be tweeting those links out again today.

Thanks, Scott.

JENNINGS: Thanks, Jim.

HILL: New this morning, Congress has averted a potentially catastrophic U.S. default just hours before the deadline. Both the Senate and House passed a resolution that increases the debt limit by $2.5 trillion and extends it until 2023.

Up next, it heads to President Biden, who is expected to quickly sign it.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Lauren Fox live on Capitol Hill.

Lauren, Senator Manchin just part of the issue here. What has to happen now for BBB? They got the debt limit passed, which could have been an issue, but there was Republican support there, bipartisan measure. Is BBB, in effect, not going to happen in 2021? LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's still a

winding road ahead. And, in fact, the president just addressed this a few minutes ago. Our Jeremy Diamond asked him what the prospects for Build Back Better before Christmas were. He said there had been some progress, but it was going to be close. Essentially, it's going to be cutting it very close to get this done before Christmas.

And that is in part because of Senator Joe Manchin and what he has expressed to the president in terms of his concerns with the scope and cost of this bill. There is also concern, however, about just getting the logistics done.

This bill is not finalized yet. And we should underscore that to people back home. They are still haggling over key provisions, over taxes, over prescription drugs, over some energy provisions. Those discussions are still very much under way.

And there is still a technical process to go through with the Senate parliamentarian to make sure that this bill complies with specific Senate budget rules that allow them to pass this bill with just 51 votes, just Democratic votes. That process is still underway.

I talked to someone this morning who said they are still trudging along, but it's unclear if they're going to be able to finish that by the end of this week.

So, a lot of work left to do. They are still not clear if they're going to be able to get it done before Christmas or not.

Jim and Erica.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: All right, we will be watching.

Lauren Fox, appreciate it. Thank you.

Well, right now, President Biden en route to Kentucky to see that devastation from the deadly tornadoes firsthand. Just ahead, we'll be joined by a city councilwoman from Mayfield, Kentucky, a town we've focused on so much. We'll talk more about what they need to recover this morning.

SCIUTTO: Goodness, the pictures from there.

Plus, we are expecting the first set of data from U.S. researchers today on the omicron variant. Details on how well vaccines may hold up against it.

And, moments ago, New York got its first ever female police commissioner. Hear how she plans to tackle violent crime as the new head of the NYPD.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:19:06] SCIUTTO: Live pictures now from Joint Base Andrews. That is Marine One. President Biden arriving there on his way to visit the tornado- ravaged areas of Kentucky. He spoke earlier, discussing, among other things, prospects for passing Build Back Better before the end of the year.

There is the president walking to Air Force One. We'll bring you those comments when we have them.

This morning, we do expect to see our first, hard data on vaccine efficacy against the omicron variant from the National Institutes of Health. As we wait, there are new details about how the Moderna vaccine holds up against the delta strain of the virus.

HILL: CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen joining us now with more.

So, what is this study telling us about Moderna and delta?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Erica, really it tells us sort of -- very much along the lines of what we've been hearing, which is that the vaccines do have a waning efficacy against delta, but that they still performed quite well.

[09:20:07]

So let's take a look at this study that was published in the "British Medical Journal." What they found is that for up to two months after vaccination, that Moderna was 94.1 percent effective against infection. That's a stunning number. Vaccines are rarely that effective. And at five to six months, it was 80 percent effective, which is still a really great vaccine. And against hospital admission it was 97.5 percent effective. Now, one note on that last number, they didn't say what time frame that was. And so it's hard to know, was that two months after, six months after. But at any rate, 97.5 is, obviously, a terrific number.

Now, this study was on the delta variant. It did not include omicron. And so for omicron, what we're looking at, and from what we know so far is a highly transmissible variant.

Let's take a look at something that Dr. Rochelle Walensky said yesterday. She said, the rates are doubling. The rates of omicron are doubling approximately every two days in some countries.

Let's take a look at what it looks like in the United states. If you look at the week ending December 4th, 0.4 percent of the samples that were sequenced in the U.S. were omicron. But the week ending December 11th, it was 2.9 percent. So that's -- that's, you know, even more than doubling. I mean that's -- that's a huge leap. We'll see if that continues. Certainly Dr. Anthony Fauci has said that he anticipates that omicron will become the dominant variant in the U.S.

Erica. Jim. SCIUTTO: And maybe more quickly than we imagined.

Elizabeth Cohen, thanks very much.

Joining me now to discuss is Dr. William Schaffner, professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center.

Doctor, good to have you back this morning.

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, DIVISION OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Good to be with you, Jim and Erica.

SCIUTTO: So we're looking at these events from Cornell University and I wonder if we're seeing something of a canary in the coal mine there, but they are reporting 903 cases of Covid-19 among students and a very high percentage of them, the omicron variant in people who were fully vaccinated.

Based on what we're seeing now, are we seeing early signs that omicron is already here, in numbers, but do we know if it's just more transmissible, but perhaps less severe, or we don't know yet?

SCHAFFNER: Well, we certainly know it's more transmissible, Jim. That's true all around the world, as Rochelle Walensky said just yesterday. And in a semi-enclosed population, such as a university, with all those students together 24/7, it can spread very rapidly.

Now, let us note, it's producing very mild and even asymptomatic infections in a highly vaccinated group. The vaccine is still doing its job at keeping people out of the hospital.

SCIUTTO: So let me ask you this question then. And, again, I know there's still more to be learned. And, by the way, we do have this NIH data coming out in the next hour.

Is closing schools, so Cornell's understandable response here has been to go online, as we saw so much last year, is closing schools, places of business, benching professional athletes, as we're seeing as you see outbreaks on NFL teams, is that necessary in your view if it proves to be causing less severe illness or do we need to learn to live with these outbreaks?

SCHAFFNER: I think the answer is both of those things. We're going to try to curtail the spread of omicron very seriously and, at the same time, we're trying to educate people that we're going to have to live with Covid.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SCHAFFNER: There will be further variants down the road. And we may have to adjust what it is that we're doing along the way, depending upon the seriousness of the threat. And we're still assessing exactly the seriousness of the threat of omicron. And in the beginning, we're more conservative rather than casual.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SCHAFFNER: So, at the moment, those things -- those closed down orders seem to be in good -- seem to be wise.

SCIUTTO: One consistent piece of data in recent weeks is that, yes, vaccine efficacy is falling as these new variants come out, but that a booster restores a lot of that. And yet today, just about 41 percent of fully vaccinated adults here in this country over the age of 50, right, a more vulnerable group, have so far received a booster. You know, that's less than half.

Are we getting booster shots into arms quickly enough to keep people out of the hospital as omicron comes?

SCHAFFNER: Well, obviously not as quickly as we in public health would like. Forty-one percent of people over age 50 in the entire United States, that's already achievement, but we have to keep surging with vaccinations in order to get up as high as we would like. We'd like to get well over 90 percent of people who are eligible for boosters vaccinated.

[09:25:01]

Never mind all those folks who still haven't gotten their first dose.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SCHAFFNER: And, remember, we have to bring children in to be vaccinated also.

SCIUTTO: Folks, listen to Dr. Schaffner and the doctors. Get those booster shots.

Dr. William Schaffner, thanks so much.

SCHAFFNER: Thanks, Jim.

HILL: Still ahead, President Biden making his way to western Kentucky this hour where he will see the devastation firsthand. As of this morning, more than 100 people are still missing five days after those tornadoes ravaged the area. We are live in a town with some of the most critical needs. We'll take you to Mayfield, next.

SCIUTTO: Hundreds still missing.

And the opening bell on Wall Street just moments away. Futures are mixed this morning. The Federal Reserve wrapping up its two-day policy meeting today. Fed Chair Jerome Powell set to give highly anticipated remarks, 2:30 this afternoon. Investors looking to see what the Fed's decision will be with regards to interest rates. Also, how it views inflation. All that has Wall Street waiting and watching. We will continue to follow and bring you the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)