Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Fed Signals Interest Rate Hikes; Will DOJ Prosecute Mark Meadows?; COVID Cases Surging. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 15, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:24]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Welcome to NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

So we just heard the latest from health officials at the White House about the Omicron variant. Here are the headlines. It is spreading, but the current vaccine booster regimen is working.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Anthony Fauci says the latest data shows that booster shots are the key to keeping people from getting severely ill with this new variant.

He said a third shot offers 75 percent more protection against Omicron than just two doses. That's with the Pfizer vaccine. With a third dose of Moderna, also, that offers substantial improvement. And at this point, he does not see the need to adjust the formula.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: Our booster vaccine regimens work against Omicron. At this point, there is no need for a variant-specific booster.

And so the message remains clear. If you are unvaccinated, get vaccinated. And particularly in the arena of Omicron, if you are fully vaccinated, get your booster shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN's Alexandra Field has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S. crosses a terrible threshold, 800,000 COVID-related deaths. Delta's destructive toll continues across the country, as Miami cases quickly spread, the variant now detected in at least 36 states.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: We expect to see the proportion of Omicron cases here in the United States continue to grow in the coming weeks. Early data suggests that Omicron is more transmissible than Delta, with a doubling time of about two days.

FIELD: Cornell University shutting down early for the holiday break with more than 900 COVID cases detected on campus, a high percentage of them identified as Omicron in fully vaccinated people, some of whom are also boosted, according to University officials.

DR. ELIZABETH MURRAY, PEDIATRIC EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: You know, I think this is an opportunity to remind people the importance of testing before they visit with family, testing before travel to make sure they're not bringing the Omicron variant back to their home states or home communities.

FIELD: Sports leagues yet again suffering COVID setbacks, players pulled and games postponed as cases climb among players in highly vaccinated and regularly tested leagues, the NFL reporting dozens of positive tests among players since Monday alone, the Rams and the Browns both hit hard.

DR. MYRON ROLLE, FORMER NFL PLAYER: The Omicron variant is incredibly transmissible. It's hitting every state. Players are still traveling to go to different states to play. And so they're being exposed. The Delta variant is still ravaging through communities and hospitals as well.

FIELD: One in six hospitals in the U.S. now reporting critical staffing shortages as COVID hospitalizations climb, California implementing a month-long indoor mask mandate today.

DR. ROHAN RADHAKRISHNA, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH: The last thing we want is to have a loved one need timely and high-quality hospital services and not be able to get that because of something we could have prevented.

FIELD: New York City's vaccine mandate for the private sector set to take effect later this month.

BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: This new variant moves fast. We have to move faster.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD: All of these developments, of course, coming as so many people are getting ready to gather with family for the holiday season, getting ready to have a holiday that feels a little more normal than it did last year, perhaps even the year before.

And what we're learning is that the health commissioner in Philadelphia is actually advising people there not to gather with other households, citing an increase in cases that came after Thanksgiving. So she's saying that you're actually best off staying with your own household or keeping a gathering small, doing it outside, and, at a minimum, getting a rapid test before you do get people together.

CAMEROTA: We will see if families want to comply with that.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Alexandra, thank you very much.

Let's bring in Dr. Peter Hotez from the Baylor College of Medicine.

Dr. Hotez. I need you to explain this to me. If Dr. Fauci says the booster vaccine regimens work against Omicron, why then are officials at NIH and CDC not saying this is a three-dose regimen, everyone must get boosted?

DR. PETER HOTEZ, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: Yes, I mean, we have spoken all year, Alisyn, and I have always said this is a three-dose vaccine.

And the reason is, when you get that third dose, you get a 30- to 40- fold rise in virus-neutralizing antibodies, and, therefore, there's more spillover protection against new variants, including Omicron.

The numbers, though, are not perfect. I have to say that. Looking at the -- what we heard from the U.K. government on Friday was, they're saying it protects -- even if you get the third dose, which is absolutely critical, because the two doses don't look like they're doing much of anything vs. Omicron in terms of symptomatic illness.

[14:05:06]

But the third dose gives you 70 to 75 percent protection against symptomatic illness, so less from -- compared to other variants.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Sorry to interrupt. I know that you don't speak for the CDC. But why aren't they saying what you're saying?

HOTEZ: Again, I can't speak for the CDC either. But this is the information from the U.K. government. And, of course, we're all hearing about breakthrough infections and symptomatic infections even with three doses.

So I think it's absolutely critical to get the third dose. But even that's not perfect. I think the other big question that I'm asking is, there is some data out of Germany suggesting that, even after you get that third dose, in the immediate aftermath, it gives you 70 to 75 percent protection, but there's some preliminary data out of Germany, German labs and elsewhere, suggesting it doesn't stay up very long.

So it declines after a couple of months. And the reason I bring that up is...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Go ahead.

HOTEZ: The reason I bring that up is because I'm concerned about our health care professionals, who got -- were the first to adopt getting the boosters, which was the right thing to do, but now are two or three months out.

If that -- if a high percentage of those get symptomatic COVID, it won't be severe enough to put them in the hospital, but it will be significant enough to keep them out of the health care work force. And so I worry about the perfect storm of Delta, plus Omicron cases going to the hospital, and a lot of sick hospital workers calling out sick.

And we already have a very strained health system. And I think that's what we need some synthesis about and hear our federal leaders, how we're going to manage that. For instance, would there ever be a reason to give a fourth dose to health care providers, specifically for health care providers who are more than two or three months out from their booster?

And I think that could be a reasonable consideration of, would that have a benefit?

BLACKWELL: So, if the booster doesn't offer protection more than a few weeks, as you suggested here, from what you're learning from the study in Germany, what do you think about the second half of what we heard from Dr. Fauci?

I have gotten an official from Cornell who says that, of the students who tested positive for Omicron there, they were nearly all of them vaccinated, many of them boosted. Do you expect that, in time, we will need an Omicron-specific booster?

HOTEZ: Well, again, that's very consistent with what I just said, 70 to 75 percent protection after the third immunization. And then it declines.

The declining part, though, is not as well-documented. This is all preliminary data out of Germany. So the Omicron-specific booster, well, potentially, the problem is this, Victor. It takes time to make that and they're talking about maybe it'll be ready in the next three or four months.

This freight train is here already, right? I mean, this -- we -- ordinarily, I would have thought, based on Alpha and Delta, that we would have had a four- to six-week-lag between the big peak in this new variant in the U.K. from when it shows up in the United States.

Unfortunately, doesn't look that way. It looks like it's going to be here around Christmas, so that there's not going to be time to really have that booster in place to make a meaningful difference.

And that may be a reality as well.

CAMEROTA: So, Dr. Hotez, what are we supposed to do with all of this information that you're giving us, particularly around Christmas? Are families supposed to go see their loved ones? Or would you recommend against that?

HOTEZ: Well, I don't want to be the Dr. Grinch that stole Christmas.

But let me tell you what we did in my family. I had plans to have my mother-in-law, sister-in-law come down from New Jersey. We had a nice few days planned at Houston museums and some restaurants. And, unfortunately, I have to ask them not to come because I thought that was a little too risky for them in terms of travel with all the Omicron circulating.

So we're kind of scaling back our Christmas plans to a more modest just-family-only gathering. And I didn't think we'd be there. I didn't imagine Omicron would be here this soon. But that's the way it's looking, unfortunately.

BLACKWELL: Well, that is sad.

CAMEROTA: It is sad.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I mean, I have one more question, Doctor. But they're not getting severely sick, Omicron, from what we know right now.

HOTEZ: Well, I would be careful about that. I mean, that's the buzz, right? And the buzz is saying, in South Africa, in terms of the number of hospitalizations one might anticipate from a big surge in COVID cases, we're not seeing as many hospitalized individuals.

And I think that's probably true. On the other hand, it's hard to perfectly extrapolate, because the population of Africa is much -- South Africa overall is much younger, different genetic background. We don't know about previous vaccinations.

I wouldn't -- I wouldn't throw all of my eggs in that basket at this point. The other thing that I have noticed among the hospitalizations in South Africa is a lot of cases kids are in the hospital with Omicron.

[14:10:03]

And so I think we may start seeing a lot of pediatric cases as well and pediatric hospitalizations, something else to be mindful of. So, no reason to panic. The vaccine, if you get that third dose still -- if you had told us a year ago we had a vaccine with 70 to 75 percent protection, we'd be thrilled.

So it's still very good. But there are breakthrough symptomatic illnesses. And the big piece, the most important take-home message is, I'm worried about our hospital staff and personnel calling out sick because they get -- because they have breakthrough symptomatic COVID.

BLACKWELL: A lot to take in there.

Dr. Peter Hotez, hope you have a good holiday anyway, although you have to pare it down a bit. Thanks so much for your insight.

HOTEZ: Thanks so much.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Doc.

BLACKWELL: So, right now, the Federal Reserve is faced with a major task, get inflation under control without starting a recession.

CAMEROTA: Consumer prices spiked in November at the fastest rate since 1982. And producer prices soared by nearly 10 percent, suggesting that inflation pressures will not disappear overnight.

CNN's Matt Egan is here.

So, Matt, they just released their decision interest rates. What are they saying?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, some major developments in this effort to fight inflation.

First, the Federal Reserve is announcing that they're probably going to be raising interest rates off these rock-bottom levels. They're signaling as many as three interest rate hikes next year. Also, they are speeding up the end of their bond-buying program. And they are citing two big factors, inflation and progress in the jobs front.

Let me read you a key line from the statement that was just put out a few minutes ago. And the Fed said: "Job gains had been solid in recent months, and the unemployment rate has declined substantially. Supply and demand imbalances related to the pandemic and the reopening of the economy have continued to contribute to elevated levels of inflation."

Other big developments that just came out is, the Fed, they are marking up their expectations for inflation for this year, acknowledging the reality of the last few months, and also marking up their expectations for inflation for next year. They're also predicting the economy is going to grow faster next year than they previously thought and unemployment will be lower. So that's promising.

But, clearly, the Fed is trying to show that they are taking this inflation problem seriously here.

BLACKWELL: Any indication of when they believe this peak will hit?

EGAN: Well, they do put out some projections. And they're calling for their favorite guide for -- favorite metric for inflation, to get back towards their goal, their goal is about 2 percent, they see it getting to 2.1 percent in 2024.

They do see it going back down to 2.3 percent in 2023, so trending lower. But we have to take all this with a grain of salt because very few people thought inflation would be this hot for this long. So it's pretty hard to predict out what inflation or COVID or jobs or any of this is going to look like out in 2023.

CAMEROTA: OK. Matt Egan, thank you.

EGAN: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Matt.

So the Department of Justice says it has received the criminal contempt of Congress referral for Mark Meadows. Now what will Attorney General Merrick Garland do?

CAMEROTA: And a new CNN poll shows Americans are gloomy about the state of the economy. We break down the results for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:28]

CAMEROTA: The criminal case against former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is now in the hands of the Justice Department.

Last night, the House of Representatives voted in favor of this referral, holding him in contempt of Congress. Meadows failed to appear for a deposition with the January 6 Committee.

BLACKWELL: The Justice Department will now decide if it will pursue a criminal case against Meadows, like it did against Steve Bannon.

So, the focus is on Attorney General Merrick Garland now. Here's what President Biden said as he left Washington today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: What is your reaction to Congress holding Meadows in contempt?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't know enough of -- just what I have seen. I have not spoken to anyone. It seems to me he's -- it's worthy of being held in contempt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez joins us now.

So tell us more about what the DOJ is weighing as they consider these charges against Meadows.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor, I think it's going to be a bit of a tougher call for the prosecutors in the U.S. attorney's office.

And, ultimately, obviously, the attorney general, Merrick Garland has the final say to approve taking this action. Look, I think with -- in comparison to the case against Steve Bannon, in which he wasn't in the government, he never even bothered to show up, never really engaged with the committee, Meadows has engaged.

He provided some measure of cooperation. Apparently, 9,000 pages is what the committee says they have -- he has turned over. And he has just decided that he doesn't want to sit for a deposition. And there's a decades of precedent in the Justice Department that close advisers to a president, including a former president, have a certain higher level of claim to executive privilege.

So all of those things are going to be weighed by the prosecutors who are looking at this. Again, it's not a straight shot, as the Steve Bannon one was. Of course, that took two weeks before the Justice Department decided to bring those charges.

You can see though, that it kind of put all sides -- it puts all sides in a bit of a bind. And the ultimate goal I think, for this committee is they want information. So we will see whether just a threat might bring -- might make Meadows budge from his position -- Alisyn, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, Evan Perez for us in Washington.

Thank you very much, Evan.

That's bringing in now Renato Mariotti, former federal prosecutor, and CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash.

Renato, let me start with you on this legal question.

Two charges against Steve Bannon, one for the testimony, the other for documents. Meadows has produced thousands of pages here. Is a charge for that -- for the documents as clean as it is for Bannon, who didn't really supply anything? He's just not giving all that -- Meadows isn't giving all the committee wants.

[14:20:18]

What do you see here as it relates to what Garland will do?

RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, Victor, I think Evan was on the right track there when he said that this is a different case.

I think, as to the documents, it's a difficult case for the DOJ, because Meadows has had some measure of cooperation. Of course, he was working with his attorney, has a very well-known attorney working on the matter.

I think it's complicated. You can imagine a jury looking at this if they were asked to convict Meadows, and I imagine what he would say is, look, I did my best. I gave documents. I tried to cooperate, But I have -- as Evan noted, he is a very close adviser to the former president. There are other issues at stake, and so forth.

So I think this would be a more difficult case for the DOJ to make, but it could potentially provide some leverage for Congress, because the committee, I think, could potentially say that they would withdraw -- they might recommend that the House withdraw its referral if he starts to cooperate further.

CAMEROTA: But, Dana, let's just play this out, OK?

Let's play out what happens. Let's say that Attorney General Merrick Garland does do what they did, the blueprint for the Steve Bannon case and hold him in contempt. Then, as we know from Steve Bannon, he will fight it. And there will be a court case many months from now. Steve Bannon is beginning in July, and they're all banking on Congress, the House changing hands in the midterms.

And so the clock runs out at some point. DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And that's the hope of

Steve Bannon, as you were alluding to. And if nothing changes, right now, it will be the hope of Mark Meadows.

There's no question about it. And so that is why the -- it seems as though this is the point of no return. And when I say this, I mean this unprecedented vote last night of members of Congress voting to hold in contempt their former colleague for defying a subpoena.

But you never know. You never know if there is some way that they can find accommodation with Mark Meadows and his attorneys in order to try to stop the train from going further down the legal station.

One thing I will say about how potentially difficult DOJ's case could be with Mark Meadows because of the idea that he was, like Steve Bannon, his actual chief of staff, he was in the executive branch, that's why you heard people like Liz Cheney and others making the case that it was -- specifically coming up with examples that they argue are outside the scope of executive privilege, like the whole conversation that the former president had with Georgia election officials, that he was on the phone.

He was taking notes. He was pursuing that. That's one example. Those are, to use your term, the very clear road map that they're trying to give DOJ if they continue down that road.

BLACKWELL: Renato, the president weighed in not as deeply as he did in the Bannon case, but we just played what he said, that Mark Meadows, that it seems he's worthy of being held in contempt.

When the president comments on these cases, is that problematic for DOJ? Does it give any credence to some of these appeals or the defenses that we know will come, especially if Meadows is charged?

MARIOTTI: Yes, I don't think it's helpful. If I was advising the president, I'd advise him not to make statements like that, because, as you're suggesting, Victor, what ends up happening is the defense raises that issue and says that they're not able to get a fair trial because the public has already been told by the president of the United States that their person is guilty, that their client is guilty.

I don't know if there's much credence that would be given to that here. I'm not saying it would be successful, but prosecutors don't want to have to deal with that or litigate those issues. So it's really best to have no comment. I understand the former president would go much further than that. But I think the best practice is for the president to make no comment at all.

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, Dana, the committee's work continues. And I was so struck by the words of one of the people who has now testified in front of the committee. And he was the organizer of the rally on January 6, so not the violence and the riot, necessarily, but the rally that predated it.

And his name is Dustin Stockton. He spoke to Anderson, I think last night, and he just talked about how hoodwinked he felt by Donald Trump, who made promises that he would be with the crowd and then immediately ducked out.

And so here is that sound from this person who testified.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DUSTIN STOCKTON, RALLY ORGANIZER: We invested our lives and our time.

[14:25:00]

And, in a lot of ways, the warning signs were there. We saw other people come forward from his inner circle. Essentially, he abandons people when the going gets tough for people. And, in some ways, it's embarrassing to think that in a lot of ways we bought into what essentially turned out to be a bluff or a con.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Isn't it fascinating, Dana, to hear someone who now basically says he sees the light that he should have seen before January 6?

BASH: Alisyn, every time I see that clip, and when I watch that interview, I think of "The Wizard of Oz" when they realize that Oz, that the wizard is just a guy behind the curtain, and he doesn't have the power or the intention that he claimed to have.

And then, all of a sudden, they can see not just in black and white, but in color. I mean, that is what happened with him. And the question is whether it's going to happen with more and, if not, why? The answer to that, unfortunately, is because they're not listening to facts, like we're giving in this conversation.

They're listening to the people on FOX News and elsewhere whitewashing what really happened and perpetuating the lie that the former president started to put into their kind of information pipeline from after Election Day all the way until as we speak. And that is what is so unfortunate and must somehow be remedied.

And the best way to do it is to have the Dustins of the world speak out.

CAMEROTA: Renato Mariotti, Dana Bash, thank you both.

MARIOTTI: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, there are some troubling new numbers for the president and Democrats. They say economic pain and anxiety is driving the country's mood.

BLACKWELL: And President Biden is in Kentucky to see the tornado devastation firsthand. We are going to take you there.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)