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Fauci: We're Already in The Middle of a COVID Surge; Jim Jordan Forwarded Text to Meadows Outlining Theory That Then-VP Pence Had Power to Stop Certification of 2020 Election; Biden, Manchin at Odds Over Child Tax Credit in "Build Back Better" Bill. Aired 10-10:30 am ET

Aired December 16, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:37]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Thursday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill. We begin this hour with this significant rise in COVID-19 cases, it is sparking concerns as well about that fast-spreading Omicron variant. And as we're learning that the four major vaccines all provide less protection against the new strain, all of this prompting a number of U.S. colleges to move their final exams and even some of the final days of the semester online.

SCIUTTO: Right now, Omicron has been identified in at least 36 states. Dr. Anthony Fauci says it's just really a matter of time before it overtakes Delta as the dominant variant in this country.

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DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: It has an extraordinary ability to transmit efficiently and spread. It has what we call a doubling time of about three days. And if you do the math on that, if you have just a couple of percentage of the isolates being Omicron, very soon, it's going to be the dominant variant.

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SCIUTTO: Joining us now to discuss what this all means, Dr. Paul Sax, he is Professor of Medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Harvard Medical School. Dr. Sax, good to have you on. I guess the big picture question is, what's the right response to this, right? I mean, it's clearly spreading more quickly, some of the data seems to indicate it doesn't cause as severe illness. Does that mean that shutdowns may not be necessary? How should folks be receiving this at home?

DR. PAUL SAX, PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL: Well, the primary thing they should do is if they haven't been vaccinated, they definitely need to get vaccinated, because the data so far suggests that in vaccinated individuals, especially those who've received three doses of the vaccines, the disease they get with Omicron is relatively mild, and that the likelihood of hospitalization is much lower. So that's the primary thing. That should be a real motivator for people to get vaccinated if they haven't been vaccinated already.

Second thing is, is we really need to start to step up our game on the kind of non-pharmaceutical preventive measures. And I think it makes a lot of sense in public settings, to wear masks, good masks, in particular, in places like public transport, airports, other crowded places where we can control the environment. And the third thing is testing. You know, rapid home testing is available, can we make it more widely available? This would be definitely a good thing for prevention of transmission, especially to the vulnerable people who can't respond to the vaccines.

HILL: Picking up on that testing question, how often, right? How often should somebody be testing especially if you are vaccinated, maybe even boosted? And you feel fine? Should you still be taking a test before you, for example, go see someone over the holidays?

SAX: Well, I recommend it. I think that socializing over the holidays is something we can do this year safe -- more safely than last year because we have the vaccines, and we have a better understanding of how the virus is transmitted. But if you do use testing, before gathering over the holidays, do it right before you go, not the morning of, not the day before. That's the power of these rapid tests that you can give you an indication of are, am I contagious now?

The other thing you could do is you could do two days before and the day of. So, the day yesterday plus today, those are the sort of the best use and that's why you get two tests per kit. I would particularly recommend this if you're going to be visiting someone again, who's vulnerable. Maybe immunocompromised, maybe much older, maybe has multiple medical problems, that's the key setting for using this. And nothing's 100% but it is better than nothing.

SCIUTTO: So, given as you say there, the environment is different today than it was a year ago because most people are vaccinated, and more people are getting boosted. Does that mean for big organizations, universities, schools, sports leagues, et cetera, that the reflex to shut down when you have an outbreak may not be necessary this time? I know it's a difficult decision for organizations to make but the standards different now.

SAX: Well, you know, part of the reason why it's hard to make a definitive statement is because the virus, this Omicron variant was really only found, you know, around Thanksgiving time. So, we're still waiting for a more complete picture to see how severe the disease is, and how bad the outbreaks are. So, I can understand, for example, Cornell, which had a very large outbreak that they did go close things down. So, I think rather than making a final decision, we're going to have to see how things go. I agree with Dr. Fauci that it's likely that Omicron will become dominant over the next couple of weeks and that will give us a much better sense of where we stand here in the United States. [10:05:07]

SCIUTTO: For sure, lots more to learn. Dr. Paul Sax, always good to have you on.

SAX: Thanks for inviting me.

SCIUTTO: Other major story we're following this morning relates to January 6. Erica.

HILL: Yeah. The January 6 committee's deposition with former Department of Justice official Jeffrey Clark delayed again, postponed a second time as he continues to deal with a medical condition. Clark, of course, was a key figure in pushing former President Trump's false claims of voter fraud within the DOJ.

SCIUTTO: Also, this morning, a spokesperson for Republican Congressman Jim Jordan confirms to CNN it was Jordan who forwarded texts to then White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows in the build up to the insurrection outlining a bogus legal theory that then Vice President Mike Pence had the ability just to flat out reject election results in certain states that notably Trump lost.

Let's speak to CNN Senior Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid for more. So, spokesman says it was Jordan, it says forwarded, I'm not sure what -- you know, substantive difference that makes the key issue here seems to be the multiple sitting lawmakers discussing with the White House flat out rejecting the results from states Trump lost based on false allegations of fraud?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. And we see that this begin, these messages start coming in to the then White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows the day after the election. And, of course, earlier this week, the House Select Committee released some of these text messages. And among them were text messages from U.S. lawmakers coming up with ideas, pushing theories about how they could potentially undermine the outcome of the 2020 election.

And it's just so stunning. I want to emphasize these are U.S. lawmakers pushing untested theories about how to potentially disenfranchise millions of voters and pushing these theories to the White House Chief of Staff.

Now, even though the House Select Committee released these messages, they did not reveal which lawmakers sent them, though now one has been identified as having been sent by Representative Jim Jordan. Now, in this text message was sent on January 5, to Meadows, and in it, he's forwarding an idea about how then Vice President Mike Pence could stop the certification of the 2020 election results.

And the text message read in part, "On January 6, 2021, Vice President Mike Pence, as President of the Senate should call out all electoral votes that he believes are unconstitutional as no electoral votes at all."

It's incredible because it's an example of the kind of pressure that Pence was facing not just from the president, but also from his allies. Now, as you noted, his spokesman has emphasized that this was a forwarded text, not an original content creation. But the committee emphasizes this is exactly why they believe Meadows was at the center of this effort to undermine the election and why they want him to sit for a deposition.

SCIUTTO: They're encouraging him to reject votes, Paula Reid, thanks very much.

Joining us now, CNN Chief Political Correspondent, co-anchor of CNN State of the Union, Dana Bash. Dana, what are the potential consequences, if any, for the lawmakers involved very directly in this effort to overturn election results?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's a great question, because just add this to the long list of what appeared to be unprecedented moves. The notion of Jim Jordan just saying, well, I only forwarded this text, only forwarded this bogus legal claim, does, who cares? The fact that you forwarded it from somebody purporting to be a legal expert, you could argue makes it even more egregious, to when it comes to his argument. And the reason why this is so crucial is that we have been focusing understandably, on the role of Mark Meadows. And this is part of his action. The fact that somebody like Jim Jordan thought that he was, you know, receptive to this.

SCIUTTO: All right.

BASH: But this broadens it, because we've heard for so long rumors about members, Republican members being involved somehow. This is not, just to be clear, evidence of involvement in the interaction, but it is evidence of involvement in a bloodless coup.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

BASH: Which is effectively what he was trying to do. And so, once that information goes through the investigation, it will be a big question what the United States House of Representatives does if they tried to punish him somehow.

SCIUTTO: Do you have, anything, Erica?

HILL: Yeah. And as we learn more to about as other of those now, currently, unnamed lawmakers, right if and when we get their names, was interesting. And I thought Elliot Williams made this point earlier, Dana with Jim and I just saying that if they were to even bring Jim Jordan in right to talk to him, that that's probably I mean, that's something that Jim Jordan would want, right? To be able to be up there, sort of grandstanding, doing his thing, railing on the committee and its investigation. I'm curious what are the thoughts on Capitol Hill about whether it's worth bringing some of these lawmakers in to testify before the committee?

[10:10:07]

BASH: Well, it is a great point. And we've already seen this week, Jim Jordan, doing that, because that he's been on the floor of the House of Representatives, defending the action of his good friend and former colleague Mark Meadows in or inaction, I should say that his refusal to come up to Capitol Hill to actually testify. So, for him, it's clickbait, it's fundraising, it's all of those things. But that doesn't negate the desire by his colleagues to try to call him in and to try to get information about what he knew, not just about the notion of encouraging the President of the United States, the Vice President of the United States, in this particular case, to just throw away the Electoral College votes.

But the big question is, again, what, if any involvement did he have in discussing and planning or at least coordinating with anybody at all, who ended up storming the capitol that day? And not just him, there are other members who are to be questioned.

SCIUTTO: Are criminal contempt referral is possible for others who don't cooperate?

BASH: We don't know. We don't know. I mean, it is entirely possible. That is the -- part of the point in putting this and making this unprecedented move this week with Mark Meadows was to compel him to testify, but also to continue to send a signal like they do with Steve Bannon that they're not going to take no for an answer and also to compel the people who are coming to testify, to try to get them to be more forthcoming. It's tactical when it comes to the actual testimony of Mark Meadows, but it is also strategic when it comes to the people that they are talking to and by all accounts, they are talking to a lot of people that we don't know about.

HILL: Yeah, absolutely. Dana Bash, always great to see you, thank you.

BASH: You too.

HILL: Up next, we're joined by a Democratic senator, as the fate of the President's social spending plan is in jeopardy this morning, talks between the White House and a key senator, I bet you can guess who it is, at an impasse.

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[10:16:55]

HILL: This morning, the Build Back Better bill, a key piece of President Biden's agenda is in limbo. Critical talks between Biden and West Virginia Democratic Senator Joe Manchin at standstill and don't seem poised to move anytime soon.

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SEN. JOE MANCHIN, (D) WEST VIRGINIA: I'm concerned about inflation, I'm concerned about, basically, the challenges we're going to have in the future. I really am, and we have a lot, because the unknown is very great right now. So, we will just see whatever happens. I'm trying to work with everybody, and I'm open minded to everything.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But you don't believe that the child tax credit could fit, if it does -- if it's -- because it could blow up the price tag of this bill? You want to keep it at 1.7.

MANCHIN: That's a big one. That's a big one. It really is. But the President make, whatever he makes a decision. I'm going to try to work with him, I'm going to try to work with him. I really am.

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HILL: Joining me now is Senator Mazie Hirono, Democrat from Hawaii, she serves on the Armed Services and Judiciary Committee. Senator, it's good to see you this morning. You just heard Senator Manchin say there to my colleague, Manu Raju, he is open minded. He's trying to work with everybody. Based on your Twitter feed from last night, I would say you're sort of done at this point. You tweeted, we cannot let one person risk the safety and security of millions of children, it's time for all of us to step up and pass Build Back Better. Do you think that forcing this to the floor, forcing a vote would change Joe Manchin's mind?

SEN. MAZIE HIRONO, (D) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: No, not necessarily. But I think it's important for the American people to know where each of us stands in terms of enabling women in particular to get back to work so that they can afford childcare, lower prescription drugs. So, there's a lot in the bill. And I think people should know where we stand. But at the same time, I realized that the discussions are continuing. So, you know, when I hear Joe say that he's keeping an open mind, I hope so. And that even though we may not be able to get this done this month, my hope is that we'll be able to get it done next year.

At the same time, Erica, what I'm seeing are voter suppression bills being enacted in state legislatures, by state legislatures all across the country. So that is a direct threat to our democracy, voter suppression bills by the hundreds. So, you have a state like Georgia, where they're trying to take over their election board, they already have, where you can even give water food to people who are standing in line for hours where you have one voter who can challenge another voter, and they're already getting people to volunteer to do that. That is what's going on all across the country. We need to take action to support voter protection laws.

HILL: So, in terms of that, right, thank you for the transition to one of the other topics that I want us to talk about this morning. President Biden last night said, and these are his words, that voting rights is the single biggest issue right now domestically.

HIRONO: Yes.

HILL: But the reality is that's not moving in the Senate, either. Senator Sinema was also very clear last night when it comes to the filibuster. She doesn't want that to happen, right? So based on what we're seeing, right, you raise all these concerns about what's happening across the country. There is a Voting Rights Act. Waiting, doesn't seem to be moving anywhere. What's the path forward?

[10:20:04]

HIRONO: There are two voting rights bills. One is the Voting Rights Act, we can call it that. The other is the John Lewis Voting Rights Bill. I think the John Lewis bill is really, really important, because that's going to give the department of the Attorney General the tools to fight back against the sort of suppression bills.

Here's what I'd like to see happen at this point. I'm not even talking about eliminating the filibuster, which I support. I would support that bringing back really the talking filibuster, which is something that Joe Manchin supported earlier. So, if you're going to be that one person to hold everything, you should get on the floor of the Senate, and hold that floor for however many hours you can so that the American people will know who is the person that's stopping, in my view, voter prediction legislation.

HILL: So, what are the chances of that happening?

HIRONO: I'm going to push for it, it's something that Joe Biden -- not Joe Biden -- Joe Manchin originally supported, I'm going to call on Joe to support a talking filibuster as the way forward for us to protect people's right to vote.

HILL: What we've learned this week in terms of some of these messages that have been released by the January 6 committee, specifically, an unnamed lawmaker who the day after the election, was already working, floating this plan to overturn the election. How much does that concern you as we head into 2022, as we head into 2024?

HIRONO: It's totally concerning that President Trump and all his enablers continue to push for the big lie that this election was stolen, and therefore they need to support the passage of all of these voter suppression bills that will, that will really stop minority people, the black people, Chicanos, African and Asian American people from voting, and that's where they're going, because it is their effort to retain power. That's what is this all about.

HILL: Right. And so, then what if you, you know, sort of back to where we were before? What if you can't get anything done, right? What if you can't get some of those -- these two different, you know, voting rights bills? What if nothing happens there?

HIRONO: I am relying on the courts at this point. There are all kinds of legal challenges to the Georgia law, the Texas law being mounted by groups out there that have to use their time and resources. And we also have an attorney general now, who's not just going to be a shill for the President, but who is also fighting some of the gerrymandering and other kinds of bills, but the Attorney General needs the tools, and that tool would be the John Lewis Voting Rights Act so that we can stop these voter suppression bills from being enacted to begin with.

HILL: And really quickly before I let you go, just circling back to Build Back Better, you sound a little bit more optimistic this morning, right? The talks are still ongoing. You're OK with this being pushed into the new year. The reality is, President Biden, as I understand it, stripping out the child tax credit is not an option for him. Joe Manchin is specifically concerned about that, and doesn't want to be just a year, what could it add if it's 10 years where is the middle ground there? We seem to have these two very clear positions.

HIRONO: We're not even talking about extending the child tax credit for 10 years. It's one year, that's what we're talking about. And I'm going to go with the 17 Nobel Prize winning economists who say Build Back Better is not going to add to the inflation. In fact, it's going to strengthen our economy. I go with those economists.

HILL: Senator Mazie Hirono, I appreciate you joining us this morning. Thank you.

HIRONO: Aloha.

SCIUTTO: Well, the defense is just beginning its case in the sex trafficking trial of Ghislaine Maxwell, the latest from the courtroom just ahead.

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[10:28:25]

SCIUTTO: Right now, defense attorneys for Ghislaine Maxwell have started making their case in her sex trafficking trial.

HILL: Maxwell is accused of facilitating and sometimes participating in Jeffrey Epstein's sexual abuse of several underage girls over the course of a decade. CNN's Kara Scannell is live in New York this morning. So, Kara, what can we expect to hear from the defense today?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Well, Erica, and Jim, the defense is really going to be focused on trying to knock down the credibility of a number of these accusers. There were four accusers, as you said, that testified at this trial. And one way that they're trying to do this is that they want to call a lawyer for one of the women because they want to make the point that they were motivated by money, and that's the reason why they came forward with these allegations against Maxwell. And the reason why they are testifying in this trial.

So, the judge is allowing them to question one of the attorneys for the accuser who went by the name, Jane, she was the first witness in the case of the -- among the accusers, and she testified to how she met Maxwell and Epstein while at summer camp, and then was drawn into this life of abuse. So, they're going to call that witness. They want him to talk about how he was seeking extra money for her participation, which she would get credit for as part of this Epstein Victims Compensation Fund. Jane was eventually paid $5 million.

The first witness on the stand this morning is a woman who had worked at Epstein's house, part of his business. She is testifying or expected to testify about how she stayed in touch with Jane after Jane had left this world. Part of the defense' argument that if it was so bad, why was she still in touch with so many of these people? They're also expected to call a memory witness and a number of character witnesses by Maxwell. The defense said that their case could last two to three days. Jim, Erica.

[10:30:06] HILL: All right, Kara, we know you continue to update us, thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.