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FOX News' Bad Week; Roger Stone Testifies Before January Committee; Interview With Gov. Kathy Hochul (D-NY); Omicron Rising. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 17, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: The idea lots of people get radicalized by a mere cult of violence, that's just the history of radicalization.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Yes.

Well, Juliette Kayyem, I always appreciate your expertise. Thank you for taking the time with us today.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

CABRERA: And thank you all for being with us on this Friday. I will see you back here on Monday.

Follow me on Twitter @AnaCabrera. I hope you have a great weekend.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Good Friday afternoon. Thanks for joining me here on NEWSROOM. I'm Erica Hill. Victor and Alisyn are off today.

Uncertainty, confusion, fatigue as we head into the holidays. COVID hospitalizations and new cases are on the rise -- excuse me -- the Delta variant still dominant, but Omicron has now been identified in at least 40 states, Puerto Rico and Washington, D.C.

The good news, Dr. Anthony Fauci says you can protect yourself. How? Get that booster.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: If you look again five months after the second dose, and look on the Omicron, the red circles, nominal, in other words, virtually no degree of neutralization protection.

Again, one month after the third dose, it goes well within the protective range. We are in a situation where we are now facing a very important Delta surge, and we are looking over our shoulder at an oncoming Omicron surge. The optimum protection is fully vaccinated, plus a boost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Fully vaccinated plus a boost is optimum protection.

Meantime, another top health expert is warning the U.S. is about to face a viral blizzard in the coming weeks. The White House says the U.S. is now averaging about 119,000 new cases a day, New Yorkers waiting in long lines to get tested, a scene that's playing out in a number of areas around the country, as millions of people prepare to travel for Christmas and New Year's.

CNN's Kyung Lah Has the latest for us -- Kyung.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): America's COVID time warp, long testing and vaccination lines from Miami to Massachusetts.

In New York City, the positivity rate has doubled in just four days. The city health adviser tweeted: "We have never seen this before in NYC."

Store shelves for rapid tests sit empty, all echoes of the past, people here waiting more than an hour to be tested as Omicron reveals its rapid spread.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is after coming yesterday twice and then not being able to get tested here.

BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: This is a whole new animal. And we got to be honest about the fact that it's moving very fast and we have to move faster.

LAH: The past is prologue, as New York's mayor redoubles restrictions and considers scaling back the Times Square New Year's Eve celebration. A visible return of sports restrictions, hockey in Montreal played to empty stance, and the NFL and NBA increasing COVID protocols.

This is all in response to deaths increasing in nearly half of U.S. states, up sharply in seven. That's an increase of 8 percent from just last week. In New Orleans, the mayor responded to the alarming numbers expanding requirements to children.

LATOYA CANTRELL (D), MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA: We will require proof of vaccination or a negative test at bars and restaurants and other locations for everyone ages 5 and older. Children ages 5 to 11 will be required to show proof of at least one vaccine dose.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are looking at a winner of severe illness and death for unvaccinated, for themselves, their families and the hospitals they will soon overwhelm.

LAH: As with previous surges, the unvaccinated are filling hospitals, as weary doctors warn they are exhausted and losing staff.

DR. SHELLEY STANKO, SAINT JOSEPH HOSPITAL: The reality is, you can't -- you can't just create humans in order to provide that care. And staffing is a challenge everywhere.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH: And adjustments to large gatherings are really being made by the day.

We are now hearing from Radio City Music Hall, who has canceled shows today and into tonight, its "Christmas Spectacular." If you are familiar with that famous show, it is the one involving the Rockettes.

And, Erica, Radio City Music Hall is citing breakthrough cases as a reason why it had to cancel today -- Erica.

HILL: Yes, and, Kyung, just the latest show, right? We know of a number of other Broadway productions just down the street from Radio City that have been dealing with it this week.

Kyung, thank you.

Here in New York City, Mayor Bill de Blasio says that Omicron variant is -- quote -- "in New York City in full force." So what about the rest of the state?

Joining me now, the governor of New York, Kathy Hochul.

Governor, good to have you with us. You just warned the COVID-19 surge is in full force in a tweet, the numbers here in New York, skyrocketing, up nearly 60 percent in the past two weeks.

Do you have a sense of how much of that surge is Delta and how much is Omicron?

[14:05:03]

GOV. KATHY HOCHUL (D-NY): Well, that's an excellent question.

And we're relying on what CDC says is the average of cases, seems about 13 percent. The problem is, we know that we have had -- we have gone from 50 to 250 Omicron cases confirmed, but the sequencing takes a little bit of time. It has to go to specific labs. So we don't have a real handle right now, nobody does, on those numbers, other than they're going up exponentially.

So, at some point, they will probably overtake Delta as the primary driver of our cases. But the silver lining is that we're not seeing consummate hospitalizations. And I think that's an important place -- a case to make, that if people are vaccinated, boosted, they're not going to be as sick.

And that's the lifesaver that we didn't have the first go-round with the first variants we dealt with over two years ago.

HILL: Yes, the hospitalization, really, that is a number that we need to focus on perhaps, sometimes even more than new cases, because it tells us how much severe disease is out there. Here in New York state, an indoor mask mandate went into effect on

Monday. I have seen the signs all around both here in the city and where I live in the suburbs. You have had some pushback. There have been a number of county executives who have said they either don't agree with the mandate or -- and/or will not enforce it.

I'm wondering, have you had any issues at this point with that mask mandate?

HOCHUL: Well, as you said, we have had a number of elected officials who don't follow what I agree is an oath of office we all take, which is to protect the people of our states, so they choose not to.

But they also have to take a quick look at what's going on in their own hospitals and the people that are getting sick that they represent. And I hope that everyone will come around to realize that even people who are vaccinated really should be still wearing a mask right now, because we are seeing more breakthrough cases, not that you will be that sick.

HILL: Right.

HOCHUL: And that's the good news. But people will still be having to quarantine and have to make other decisions.

So we hope that they come around, but this is actually self-enforcing. We're asking the residents of New York state and the business owners to follow this, because we think this is the safest way for -- number one, to keep people safe. But, number two, I want to keep the economy open.

Our small businesses and our culturals and venues where people gather, they can't take another hit. And that's why we thought this was a reasonable accommodation, that you either have a mask mandate or a vaccine mandate, trying to be flexible with the business community, because they're getting crushed once again, and we don't want to see that happen.

HILL: You're planning to reassess on January 15. What would it take for you to get rid of that mandate?

HOCHUL: Oh, a serious decline in the number of cases. We are watching the numbers closely.

We did this in anticipation of the spike. We were absolutely right in what we did a week ago to prepare people for this. We think this will avert more people getting sick. And that's a good news story. And we do hope that everyone really comes around and realizes this is a simple, very minor intrusion, if you will, if it's that, even that.

All the children in the state have been wearing masks since the beginning. It's not that big a deal. It'll help save lives, keep people healthy. And that's all we're asking for. So there has been some pushback. But we're not backing down from this. We think it's important.

HILL: In terms of testing, this has been an issue from the very beginning, as we know, across the country.

There are long lines, not just here in the city, but all over the country, frankly, as people are getting ready to travel for the holidays. I have tried a number of different times to go pick up some of those rapid at-home test at local pharmacies in the city or in the suburbs.

I can't find them anywhere. You announced that you're going to be developing a portal, so New York state residents can actually go on and sign up to have a test sent to their House. I'm wondering, when is that going to be implemented? Who's going to be eligible for those tests? And how do they pay for it?

HOCHUL: Well, we are microtargeting zip codes in areas where people are not following -- we know exactly what the vaccination rates are low. So we will not be having this available to people in high vaccination areas. We wanted to let them know that they're in a much better place.

But the people who are not getting vaccinated, we're going to target those zip codes and get that out to them as well. But the portal itself...

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: But you're not just going to send them, right?

HOCHUL: No. No.

Well, we're looking at two approaches. We want to make them available to New Yorkers. We just ordered a million new test kits. They have arrived. We'd like to see them used in schools and universities in particular, but we have them available.

We have another million coming next week and another million after that. So we're going to continue ramping up our state inventory. But in the areas where people -- we're seeing a low percentage of vaccinations -- and some counties have a 47 percent vaccination rate, which is crazy, but it's the truth.

We are actually going to ask people to do the right thing and if they test positive to just stay home then. If you won't get vaccinated for whatever reason, and we don't agree with that, but we also want to make sure that you don't spread it to other people as well. And that's what we're trying to control here.

But we did get over 100,000 people boosted just yesterday. So the booster shots are kicking in, which is really the most important thing people can do. Get that booster shot, and then you will be wearing your masks, you will be fine to gather over the holidays.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Let me circle back on those tests, though.

So they're not going to be sent. You're going to focus, you're going to microtarget these areas where there are a high number of cases, lower vaccination rates. But you're not just going to be sending them to every house.

[14:10:05]

What if somebody lives in -- somebody is boosted and vaccinated, but they're still seeing a rise in cases? They want to sign up to get a test. Will they then not be eligible?

HOCHUL: Well, we have to look at our inventory.

I mean, we have 20 million New Yorkers.

HILL: OK.

HOCHUL: And we actually know who's been vaccinated, who's been boosted. We know them. We have the database of those individuals.

When we have sufficient supply, of course we will make them available. But, right now, the key is, the people who are most likely to get severely sick and die in a hospital are the ones who are not vaccinated. And those are the ones that we have to figure out a way to at least get tested, so they don't show up at work and spread it to other people.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: A couple of quick points I want to get you on as well before we run out of time here.

We heard from CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky earlier today. She talked about this test-to-stay program that's worked very well in pilots they did in schools, and I believe it was Los Angeles County and in Illinois.

Is that something that New York state is looking at? Are there both the tests available and the funding available for districts around the state to be able to use that approach?

HOCHUL: Yes, so we surveyed all of our schools about a month-and-a- half ago to ask them to do this, over 700 school districts. And the majority of them have been offering tests in school. And we have been providing the resources to make that happen, and also saying that we want to get -- keep kids in school.

We want to keep kids in kindergarten all the way up through college. We want to make sure that we don't have that...

HILL: Can they provide those tests, though, as opposed to just testing once a week? For example, my kids go to public school. They get tested once a week, right, at public school in New York.

(CROSSTALK)

HOCHUL: Right. Right. HILL: But if they're doing this test-to-stay program, it can be tough

to get a test when you need one for a child. It takes a while. Takes a while to get the results.

HOCHUL: Right.

HILL: So can you provide those additional tests? Is that how it would work?

HOCHUL: We are trying hard to get the inventory to be able to do that.

And what I didn't want to have is for parents to have to pay a cost. Some were paying for the PCR test $125. I said, that's not right. And we stopped that. We said we're going to change the requirement that it be a PCR test to a rapid test, which is less expensive. They're about $10, available.

We also make sure that the insurance companies cover the cost of that test as well. So we absolutely drive down the cost to families. They should not be having to bear the costs for their children to be able to safely stay in school and be educated.

HILL: When you look at what is what is coming, holidays on the horizon here, people are especially looking forward to getting together this year because they couldn't last year, understandably.

Do you think changes need to be made to the Times Square celebration, for example, here in New York City? Are you concerned?

HOCHUL: Well, Mayor de Blasio has already spoken on this. And we support what our localities are doing. And he will make the right decision.

Everybody right now has to be vaccinated in order to participate in these outdoor celebrations. So that's a requirement already there. But we -- this is changing so quickly. The numbers are going up exponentially by day, how many more cases we have. We went from 8,000 cases to 21,000 since Monday.

So I think it's always fair for to allow the elected officials to assess the situation as it unfolds. But my objective is to keep people safe and not shut down our economy. It's critically important that we don't hurt the small businesses and the culturals and the event venues that took such a hard hit during the last 20 months.

We want to keep them going, because they can have protocols in place, require vaccines, and, at some point, we will be determining that fully vaccinated means you are boosted. We have to work on that as well.

And the make a huge difference as well. It's not a big deal to wear a mask. We're asking people to just follow that simple rule and keep themselves and their family safe during the season,and continue to gather. We want people to be together.

HILL: Really quickly. We're out of time, but I do just need to a yes or no.

You said fully vaccinated and boosted. Would you like to see that definition of fully vaccinated change to include a booster shot?

HOCHUL: We're working on that right now.

And the only complication is this, is that some people got vaccinated just in the last few months, people following our mandate that all health care workers be vaccinated. A lot of them waited until the last minute.

They're not even eligible to be boosted yet.

HILL: Sure.

HOCHUL: You have to wait a certain amount of time, depending on which ones. So that's a little bit of complication.

People who are certainly eligible, we want them to do it. But in terms of a requirement, we just have to make sure that we adapt to that flexibility required. But we will get it done.

HILL: OK.

Governor Kathy Hochul, appreciate your time today. Thank you.

HOCHUL: Thank you.

HILL: In Michigan, COVID hospitalizations are at the highest level since the start of this pandemic.

And with each day, the worry grows that hospitals could very soon be overwhelmed, especially as we're seeing more of this highly transmissible Omicron, variant which is and has been identified, rather, in the state.

Dr. Rob Davidson is an emergency room physician in Michigan. He's also executive director of the Committee to Protect Health Care.

It's good to have you back with us. You have been passionate and so honest from the very beginning about the challenges that you have faced specifically where you are.

You wrote a "New York Times" op-ed last week, which I encourage everybody to read, because you really talk through the issues that you're seeing.

[14:15:00]

Today, we heard Jeff Zients say, this is not a moment to panic because we know how to protect people. Would you agree with that assessment?

DR. ROB DAVIDSON, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: Well, I think it's absolutely true.

I mean, the reality is -- and I have been doing emergency medicine 20 years -- panicking never helps anything, right? If you freak out about something, that doesn't make us safer, it doesn't make you less likely to get sick.

We need to do the things that we have been saying all along, however. People need to get vaccinated. We need to get boosters when people are eligible. People need to wear masks when they're inside. And they need to try not to be around other people who are unvaccinated, even if you are vaccinated, because it just increases your risk of those breakthrough cases.

Unfortunately, in my county -- I heard the governor saying that some counties had a 47 percent vaccination rate, which was crazy. I work in a county that's around 43 or 44 percent vaccination rate, and that's not that uncommon in this part of Michigan that I work.

And so, yes, we have to keep saying and doing the things we have been saying and doing and hang on for dear life.

HILL: So you have a vaccination rate well -- I will say well under 50 percent, just above 40 percent in your county, but the majority of -- we know the majority of your patients are unvaccinated. They're coming in with COVID.

DAVIDSON: Right.

HILL: I know you have talked yourself blue in the face. You have tried everything you can to use the facts to tell people why these vaccines are so important and why they're so effective.

This is a community where a lot of people know one another. You may know a lot of your patients that are coming in. Are you sensing that anything is changing at this point?

DAVIDSON: Not really.

Unfortunately, the disinformation streams are as strong as ever, whether it be RFK Jr. and his anti-vaccine propaganda or the folks on FOX News undermining or just Facebook groups creating these little silos and echo chambers where people get their already kind of disinformation prejudice reinforced on a daily basis.

So we need to do a lot more to stem those streams of disinformation, so that folks like me, my wife, who is a family doctor in the area, folks that are just trying to help our community, so our information can break through, because, unfortunately, we almost don't have a chance when they're inundated on such a regular basis.

HILL: You're also -- I know so many areas around the country -- understaffed, overworked, right, exhausted staff.

Something that really stood out to me, we heard from Michael Osterholm just last night. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH: I think we're really just about to experience a viral blizzard.

I have been very concerned about the fact that we could easily see a quarter, a third of our health care workers quickly becoming cases themselves. This virus is not going to eliminate its transmission to those who are health care workers. It's going to keep going.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Is there a concern that we get to the point where there are certain pockets of the country, certain areas where there may not be enough health care workers, healthy health care workers to care for the influx of patients?

DAVIDSON: Yes, I mean, we're there, right? We're not there everywhere all at once. But we're there in pockets already on a regular basis.

In our system, we have been full or overfull for four or five weeks now. Our ICU capacity throughout West Michigan is at about 140 to 150 percent of its usual, and that just means they have expanded ICUs. They have crept into other units. So now we have fewer inpatient units.

They have had to pay two, three times normal rates to bring traveling nurses in. And right now, there's a few pockets in this country that are experiencing that. So there's a supply of travel nurses willing to work for two to three times the salary, because it's lucrative. They will come and do that.

The concern is, it's hitting now. Omicron hits in New York and D.C. and Boston and bigger areas, and in wider areas across the country. Those numbers of people who are able to come in and even do it for two to three times the normal rate, that eventually just dries up. So it's like, are you going to get lucky and be in a place where they have enough folks?

I hope so. I hope for my patients that we're there, but kit isn't going to be able to be everywhere all at once.

HILL: I mean, the reality is, too is, when you're overwhelmed, as we know, when you're overwhelmed with COVID patients, there are other emergencies that may fall by the wayside. That's a concern.

I wonder, when you're having these conversations, when you're meeting people, again, because you're in an area where so many people know one another, right? I grew up in a small town. I know what that's like. If the facts and the facts coming from a trusted doctor aren't convincing them, as we are seeing a spike in deaths, as people are losing their lives, is that getting through?

DAVIDSON: I think when it happens to a close family member, yes.

And, again, I will go back to my wife as a family doctor has patients who have refused the vaccine, then ended up in ICU for weeks and weeks, see her afterwards and say, oh, now I want the vaccine.

Well, the reality is, they should get it and that's hopeful. But now their siblings who once refused it are coming in saying, yes, I think I want it too.

[14:20:00]

And we live in an a not-very-dense population area, so people haven't been touched as of yet. But it's happening more and more. That may be our only hope. It's really unfortunate that people have to suffer before those around them will finally listen to what we have been saying.

I'm hopeful that that will get us far enough along that we can avoid the system completely collapsing. But I think that hope is waning every day when I see more people come in and more people boarding and fewer beds available. It's the cycle that we will just -- we're just going to get through it.

I mean, we have confidence that we can provide the care we need. I just hope that the community can be understanding of where we are, and know that when they wait for six hours to get in, it isn't because we're all on break or kind of twiddling our thumbs. We're trying to take care of all the folks that came before them.

HILL: Yes, I would imagine there aren't that many breaks in your day these days.

Dr. Rob Davidson, good to have you join us today. Thank you.

DAVIDSON: Thanks, Erica.

HILL: Longtime Trump ally Roger Stone facing the January 6 Committee, offering a fair amount of criticism, not so much in the way of revelations. We will explain.

And in minutes, cross-examination set to resume in the trial of former police officer Kimberly Potter. She's accused of killing Daunte Wright during a traffic stop. We're going to bring you that testimony when it resumes.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:47]

HILL: Let's get you caught up on the investigation into the January 6 insurrection.

Donald Trump ally Roger Stone appearing for his deposition today. He asserted, as expected, his Fifth Amendment right.

CNN's Ryan Nobles joining us now live.

So he asserted that right, which was expected. But given what we have seen in the past with Roger Stone, I'm guessing there was maybe a little bit more to it.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erica, as is always with Roger Stone, there's a bit of showmanship connected to all of this, right?

He wanted to make sure that the cameras knew what time he was arriving. And he offered up some theories as to why he thought that the committee had called him in front of them and why he chose not to answer any of their questions.

But what's been consistent with the committee here is that even if one of these subpoenaed targets suggests that they're going to take the Fifth Amendment, the committee requires them to show up and answer these questions.

And after he all wrapped -- wrapped up that interview, and it wasn't very long, Stone told the reporters outside that he said that he took the Fifth to every single question they asked him. Now, that's us taking Stone's word for it. He's not often someone who has a great familiarity with the truth, but we have to assume that he did not provide them much information.

Now, we do know that there was another witness that appeared in front of the committee today. And that person may be providing information that the committee is very interested in. And that's Caroline Wren. She's not a household name. But she was a key rally organizer, somebody that was heavily involved in the raising of money and the staging of the event that took place on the Ellipse on January 6.

She's been behind closed doors with the committee for several hours answering their questions. So what this shows us, Erica, is kind of the wide range of individuals that are coming before this committee, some of them very well-known, big-time Trump supporters, may not be able to offer too much insight into what exactly happened on that day, others who were more behind the scenes involved in those intricate details that could perhaps connect some of the dots that the committee is looking for.

HILL: Ryan Nobles, appreciate it. Thank you.

NOBLES: Thank you.

HILL: A major legal blow to FOX News. A Delaware judge has refused to dismiss a defamation lawsuit from Dominion Voting machines, saying that FOX may have knowingly pushed false claims of election fraud.

CNN senior media reporter Oliver Darcy is here now.

What's really fascinating here, right, is that he's not dismissing this defamation lawsuit. So this now sets up discovery.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Right.

HILL: Could it be that FOX hosts, FOX executives, producers may have to testify under oath about those editorial decisions?

DARCY: Certainly.

There are two roads that they can go down here, right? FOX can move to settle this lawsuit, which would be very costly for them. Remember, Dominion is suing them for $1.6 billion. So if they did settle this lawsuit, it's not to say that Dominion would get that much money, but they would have to pay a lot of money to get this to go away.

The other potential is that FOX will say -- they have said that they're going to defend themselves. And they will say, well, let's go to court. And that will set up the possibility for discovery, for depositions. And that could be potentially very embarrassing for this network.

Remember, earlier this week, we saw a snippet of text messages released between FOX hosts and Mark Meadows, the former chief of staff, and that was during the insurrection. And it showed the discrepancy between what they were doing privately and what they were saying publicly.

You can imagine, if Dominion gets their hands on all sorts of private communications between executives and hosts and producers, it could potentially be very embarrassing for the network. So neither option very good for FOX here.

HILL: No.

There have been -- look, there have been a number of blows, I guess, for FOX News. But what it's done, I would say, in most of these cases this week is really highlighted, right, the misinformation and this altering of facts in a number of cases.

You would think that Dominion, which is trying so hard to clear its name as a company, would want to -- would not want to settle, right, would want to push forward.

DARCY: Yes, it's very possible that Dominion will say, thanks, but no thanks. We want to go to court. We want to clear our name.

And that would maybe be in their interest publicly, because, if they do settle, it will probably come with some limitations about what they can say. And so they might want to go forward to courts and really pummel FOX publicly in the court system.

HILL: Does this have any impact on FOX right now, any of what we have seen this week?

DARCY: I think it's just been a terrible week for FOX.

First, you started -- you lost Chris Wallace. And so FOX is a right- wing network. They lean hard in the conspiratorial programming. But they could always say, we have Chris Wallace.

He's a very well-respected journalist.