Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Health Experts Warn Of Tough Few Weeks To Months As COVID Surges; International Response Builds To Surge, Omicron Fears; White House Slams Joe Manchin's No On Built Back Better Plan; Scientists Race To Gather Data On Omicron's Severity; GOP Plans For A Biden Supreme Court Pick; Navigating The Uncertainty Of A Global Pandemic; Three Retired Generals Raise Alarm About Possible 2024 Coup. Aired 6- 7p ET
Aired December 19, 2021 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:32]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES: We are in for a world of trouble, I'm afraid, in the next month or two.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST (voice-over): COVID cases spiking around the world with Omicron on track to become the dominant strain in many countries.
DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: It's as contagious as measles, and that's about the most contagious virus that we've seen.
BROWN: Hospitalizations now surging among the unvaccinated.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: Do not do things like go to gatherings where there are people who you do not know what their vaccination status is.
BROWN: Overseas the Netherlands locking down. Israel putting travelers from Canada, Germany and the U.S. on their no-fly list. And the U.K. not ruling out new restrictions.
SADIQ KHAN, LONDON MAYOR: Over the last 24 hours, we've had the largest number of new cases since this pandemic began.
BROWN: Also tonight, Democratic Senator Joe Manchin dealing a potential death blow to the president's ambitious social spending plan.
SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): I've tried everything humanly possible. I can't get there.
REP. AYANNA PRESSLEY (D-MA): He has never negotiated in good faith.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): I think he's going to have a lot of explaining to do. Let him vote no in front of the whole world.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday.
Just days before Christmas and the prospect of a new year, sobering warnings tonight in the fight against the coronavirus. The Delta variant is driving this new surge of cases and hospitalizations in the U.S. for now, at least. The nation's top expert on infectious diseases, Dr. Anthony Fauci, says the inevitable takeover by the Omicron variant will stress test a health care system already on the brink. He says Americans need to brace for a tough few weeks to months ahead. His boss shares the bleak assessment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: All of the other previous variants pale by comparison terms of the rate at which this is spreading, doubling every two to three days, first in South Africa, now in parts of Europe, and the U.S. is on that exponential curve right now. So we are in for a world of trouble, I'm afraid, in the next month or two.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That is not what we want to be hearing. The numbers provide no comfort either. More than 125,000 Americans on average are testing positive every day. Hospitalizations in the U.S. have increased nearly 20 percent in two weeks. And the statistic that's hardest to swallow given all the tools we now have, the U.S. consistently losing 1300 people to COVID every day on average.
The White House says President Biden's Tuesday speech on the Omicron threat will also speak to the unvaccinated and deliver, quote, "a stark warning of what the winter will look like." Across the country, people are lining up at COVID testing sites as a busy holiday week and gatherings bear down.
CNN's Polo Sandoval is at Barclay Center in New York. So, Polo, how busy has it been?
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Pam. It really has been quite the busy last few days here in New York City. And you know, when you hear, obviously, the recommendations coming from authorities is for people who are not vaccinated to get vaccinated. For those who are to get boosted. You get all sorts of people here in downtown Brooklyn.
Let's show you a bit of the crowd that we're seeing here in downtown Brooklyn. For several hours now, we've actually been seeing multiple people who are turning out for all sorts of reasons, but really a lot of people that are turning out to actually get tested because this is what authorities have been recommending for a very long time now, Pam, which is if you are vaccinated, get boosted. If you are boosted then simply get tested.
I want you to hear from some of the folks who we've actually heard from, who are (INAUDIBLE) tested. Many of them are vaccinated themselves. In fact New York City residents, about (INAUDIBLE) vaccinated but before they get ready to actually see family and friends for Christmas, they just want to make sure that it's going to be safe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like have a couple of friends who haven't been vaccinated did also like catch COVID or has a scare, so just kind of like trying to play it safe for the family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be safe. You never know. Even when you vaccinate, you can still get it, so it's better to make sure that I'll be so later.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANDOVAL: And when it comes to the actual numbers here, again, about 72 percent of New York City residents are actually vaccinated, so that's certainly a good thing. We all have some optimism with New York City's Mayor de Blasio earlier today, which is this (INAUDIBLE).
[18:05:14]
BROWN: All right. We're having some trouble there with Polo's connection. Thanks so much, Polo.
And in just a few minutes, Dr. Megan Ranney joins us to discuss if there is some baseline immunity in the U.S. and how that will affect us all around. She'll also talk about the severity of the Omicron variant and she'll answer your questions.
The COVID surge is also forcing other nations to take strong measures. Israel is adding the U.S., Canada and eight other countries to its red no-fly list. London's mayor says further COVID restrictions are inevitable, and the Netherlands are all in lockdown while the French prime minister warns that Omicron is spreading at lightning speed.
So let's check in with our international correspondents.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELLIOTT GOTKINE, JOURNALIST: I'm Elliott Gotkine in Tel Aviv where Israel has added 10 more countries to its red no-fly list, including the United States, Canada, Germany, also Italy, Hungary, Belgium, Morocco, Portugal, Switzerland and Turkey. That means that Israelis are banned from flying there unless they get special permission, and any Israelis returning from those countries will have to undergo seven days of quarantine including the first day in a quarantine hotel.
Once they get a negative PCR test, they'll be allowed to go to home quarantine, only after they have signed an agreement allowing the authorities to be track their movements. In other news, Omicron is increasing. It's ticking higher. There are now 175 cases in Israel. That's up from 89 a few days ago, and there are further 380 cases which are highly suspicious of being Omicron.
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Scott McLean in London where the head of the Health Service in England expects one in five staff in London to be out sick with COVID on Christmas Day thanks to an Omicron-fueled surge in new infections. Government scientists say that a new set of restrictions is needed sooner rather than later to avoid near peak levels of hospital admissions.
But the government is still in wait-and-see mode because there are still question marks about the severity of illness Omicron actually causes. The cautious British approach is in stark contrast to many mainland European governments which are facing protests over severe or new restrictions. Friday night France closed its borders to British tourists even if they're vaccinated, and now Germany has officially followed suit.
BARBIE NADEAU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Barbie Nadeau in Rome where here in Europe the COVID situation is not making holiday celebrations easy for a second year in a row. The Netherlands are locking down thanks to a spike in cases and hospitalizations. Ireland just instituted another curfew on pubs and restaurants, and the U.K. is grappling with a staggering number of new cases fed by the Omicron variant.
In continental Europe, it isn't Omicron but Delta still causing spikes, hospitalizations and deaths, across the region. France has canceled its famous New Year's Eve fireworks display, and here in Rome, there will be no end-of-year concert again this year.
Many countries have introduced new regulations that don't just apply to the unvaccinated even those who are boosted can't escape some of the pain. The new measures have prompted some to take to the streets in protest. The new measures have also prompted many others to finally get vaccinated or get their boosters.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And our thanks to our correspondents around the world for their reports.
New tonight, Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren says she has COVID-19. She tweeted in part, "Today I tested positive with a breakthrough case. Thankfully I am only experiencing mild symptoms and am grateful for the protection provided against serious illness that comes from being vaccinated and boosted." She goes on to urge others to get their shots, too.
Democratic Senator Joe Manchin may have just dealt a fatal blow to the signature piece of President Biden's domestic agenda. A massive social safety net bill that included money for everything from universal pre- K to paid family leave.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANCHIN: I cannot vote to continue with this piece of legislation, I just can't. I've tried everything humanly possible. I can't get there.
BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: You're done. This is, this is a no.
MANCHIN: This is a no on this legislation. I have tried everything I know to do.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: An administration source telling me tonight that White House aides discussed with President Biden what approach to take in that damning statement released earlier about Senator Manchin, with Biden ultimately giving the final sign-off on that statement according to the source. Now the source also tells me that Biden and other White House aides felt it was important to lay out exactly what had transpired, adding, there were too many things where it felt like he was going back on his word.
[18:10:02]
Also, the source said, it was Biden himself that was wanting to speak with Manchin earlier today, and quote, "by all acknowledgement Manchin wouldn't take his call."
With the Senate evenly divided and Republicans united in their opposition, Democrats needed every last vote to get this bill across the finish line. So where does this go from here?
CNN's Joe Johns is at the White House and Suzanne Malveaux is on Capitol Hill.
Joe, I'm going to start with you there. What more are you learning about this latest development today that caught the White House, President Biden, off guard?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, you sort of characterized the statement there. It was the textbook version of the sharply worded rebuke, and those aimed straight at the senator from West Virginia. There was surprise here at the White House, quite frankly, but the surprise wasn't that the negotiations were going badly. Everybody knew that. The surprise was the timing because White House aides said Joe Manchin actually came to the president and delivered to him his own proposal that contained many of the things that Joe Biden wanted included.
White House aides thought they were going to go ahead and try to negotiate their way through that in the coming days when the senator from West Virginia essentially sends word that he's going to blow up the negotiations entirely, pull the plug on national TV, and, you know, about 30 to 45 minutes before he went out on TV, he sends an aide to deliver the message of the White House. The White House tries to reach him and he doesn't take the call.
So here's just a taste of the language from that statement that the White House press secretary put out. "Senator Manchin promised to continue conversations in the days ahead and to work with us to reach that common ground." It goes on.
"If his comments and written statement indicate an end to that effort, they represent a sudden and inexplicable reversal in his position and breach of his commitments to the president and the senator's colleagues in the House and Senate." So they really thought they were going to continue to negotiate, Pamela. BROWN: They sure did. Suzanne, I want to go to you because the
backlash against Manchin from progressive Democrats in particular, it has been swift.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Pam. And what we've heard today is a lot of lawmakers who are saying they weren't surprised by this, but they don't mean it in a sense that they got a heads up. They just mean it in the sense that they didn't trust him from the beginning.
We heard from Representative Barbara Lee tweeting out. She was saying that, look, she wasn't surprised. She is infuriated. She is disappointed. We heard from Representative Ayanna Pressley who also said, look, Manchin is the kind of person who just keeps moving the goalposts here.
And so there really is a reckoning that the Democrats have to have at this moment in time. Whether or not Senator Manchin is a reliable partner and a player when it comes to Democrats negotiating how they want to move the administration's agenda forward here. We heard from Senator Bernie Sanders who put it out there quite plainly, his frustration and his anger, that perhaps there should be a vote on the Senate floor regarding this even if Manchin does not approve of this, just to get him on the record and potentially to shame him.
Here's how Sanders put it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: I hope that we will bring a strong bill to the floor of the Senate as soon as we can and let Mr. Manchin explain to the people of West Virginia why he doesn't have the guts to stand up to powerful special interests.
We've been dealing with Mr. Manchin for month after month after month. But if he doesn't have the courage to do the right thing for the working families of West Virginia in America, let him vote no in front of the whole world.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: And, Pam, just to remind our audience what this is all about here, I mean, this is about a tremendous agenda here, very ambitious regarding clean energy investments, childcare, paid family and sick leave, the child tax credit as well as home health care and Medicare, housing, education, grants and, of course, some investments for energy and climate change provisions.
This is something that the Democrats are going to have to look at very carefully if they're going to get some of these items, very significant items, done. Do they propose it in kind of a piecemeal fashion so they can get Manchin on board and perhaps some Republicans and move forward on the child tax credit that way? That is something that they have to think about in the coming year if they're going to actually address this. Because it looks like, you know, this ambitious agenda as it's laid out now is just not going to make it through. BROWN: It's not going to make it through based on what we just heard
from Joe Manchin today.
Suzanne Malveaux, Joe Johns, thank you so much.
And join me next hour when I talk to Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell about Senator Manchin's decision.
[18:15:02]
Up next, on this Sunday evening, surging cases unleash. A rush for COVID tests. Dr. Megan Ranney has important advice on home testing. Plus we'll discuss new data on how the Omicron variant can affect your lungs.
Also ahead tonight, Democrats and Republicans brace for another Supreme Court showdown over Justice Stephen Breyer's uncertain future. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: A lot of people believe, including myself, that the reason why it's manifesting as a less severe illness is probably because we have baseline immunity in the population, so even though we're still getting infected because this is spreading through immune evasion it's spreading by evading the immunity tha we've acquired. We have some baseline immunity that protects us from getting very sick.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Former FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb there talking about the Omicron variant.
I want to bring in Dr. Megan Ranney. She is a professor of emergency medicine and the associate dean of public health at Brown University.
[18:20:05]
Hi, Dr. Ranney. So what do you think? Do you agree that Omicron appears less severe because of baseline immunity and the population. Dr. Fauci I believe said today that it was around 80 percent, he projected, 80 percent baseline immunity. What do you think?
DR. MEGAN RANNEY, EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN AND PROFESSOR: So it's really too early to draw firm conclusions about the severity of Omicron. What most of us suspect is that the milder disease that folks are reporting does reflect the fact that in South Africa and the U.K. and now in the U.S., have a large portion of the population that either has been infected or has been vaccinated. But the stats are still accumulating the U.K. which is really the best comparison to what we're going to experience in the U.S.
It's saying that they're going to be about a week or two weeks out from having firm numbers about how bad Omicron really is for the unvaccinated versus for those who are vaccinated, for whom all the signs are showing that this will be a mild infection.
BROWN: And speaking of the U.K., there is this new study out of the U.K. showing that mutations that make Omicron able to avoid antibodies may also reduce how it replicates in the lungs and cause severe disease. What could this mean in the long term?
RANNEY: So this is a very preliminary study that has not yet been done in humans. It's really based on lab research. If this is shown to be true, it would mean that Omicron is much more like the common cold than prior variants of COVID, which would be great news. Of course, there are other bad things that COVID does as well. It doesn't just get into the lungs and cause that dreaded COVID pneumonia, it also causes kidney problems, blood clots and more. Time will tell if Omicron causes those problems as well as the COVID pneumonia.
BROWN: The Delta variant is still the dominant strain in the U.S., but Omicron cases are rising quickly. As an emergency room physician, what are you seeing in your own hospital?
RANNEY: So I don't know on a daily basis whether the patients who I'm taking care of are infected with Delta, Omicron, Alpha or Beta, all I know is that they are COVID positive. And what I will tell you is that in my emergency department, in my state, our hospitalizations are about half of what they were last year at this time, but our emergency departments are absolutely overwhelmed, not just with COVID but also with all the other diseases, injuries and illnesses out there that have not been adequately treated for the past year and a half.
Our hospitals are at a breaking point with a current COVID wave, never mind the exponential spread of Omicron that's already being reported across the northeast.
BROWN: I want to ask you about COVID testing. A lot of people scrambling to try to get a COVID test right now. Can it effectively detect, the ones that are on the market right now, if you know, can they effectively detect Omicron variant? And what should someone do if they test positive?
RANNEY: So there are two big kinds of COVID tests. The first are the molecular tests, the things that you have to send out and take a couple of days to get the results for. You get those at a pharmacy or a doctor's office or a mass testing center. Those are almost universally still able to detect Omicron. There's been an FDA warning about a couple of them not catching Omicron, but those are already off the market.
But again, that's looking at somewhere between a two and a four-day wait. Go get that if you're symptomatic, if you need it for travel. If you're required to get a PCR to go back to school or to go back to work.
The other type of test is the rapid antigen test. That's like the BinaxNOW. The 15-minute test that you can do at home, that's the one that's being sold out across the country. Those are so useful for immediate screening before you go to a get-together to know if you're infectious.
I used them before my daughter's birthday party the other night, and today at a very small holiday get-together of purely vaccinated people. We all took a rapid antigen test to make sure that none of us were bringing infectiousness into the gathering and risking spreading it and ruining each other's holidays.
BROWN: Yes. I used one yesterday. I want to take a moment to get to a few viewer questions. We have some great questions. One viewer is asking, is it possible to contract Delta and Omicron at the same time?
RANNEY: Unlikely to catch both at the same time, but there are definitely a lot of reports out of South Africa of people who caught Delta and then caught Omicron. So having had Delta doesn't put you at protection from Omicron, but unlikely to catch both together.
BROWN: A second viewer asked, with new variants rising every few months, with some like Omicron being partially immune-evasive, will we ever get out of the pandemic phase of COVID, or will we continue to have pandemic waves in the future?
RANNEY: I wish I had a crystal ball to be able to answer that question. What I and most experts are expecting is that at some point COVID is going to become endemic, the same way as flu or many other infectious diseases, something that's part of the fabric of the world but doesn't cause these major surges that overwhelm our health care system and our economy.
[18:25:07]
When that's going to happen, I can't say. Maybe it will be March, maybe not.
BROWN: Very quickly, what if you have asymptomatic COVID, you've been fully vaxxed, you've gotten boosted. And this viewer is asking, can you still pass it on to high-risk family members? That is the big concern is people are getting together with family for the holidays.
RANNEY: It's a really legitimate concern, and that's why I do recommend those rapid antigen tests before you get together for the holidays, especially if you're getting together with high-risk or vulnerable folks, older adults or immunosuppressed. If you are fully vaccinated, it's less likely for you to get infected and therefore less likely for you to pass on an infection, but I can't say it's zero risk. So those rapid tests will come in handy.
BROWN: All right. Dr. Megan Ranney, thank you so much.
RANNEY: Thank you.
BROWN: Revealed tonight, Republican plans to block Democrats from filing -- filling, rather, Supreme Court vacancy that doesn't even exist yet. And it's complicating how Democrats approach the justice who some hope will retire soon.
Isaac Dovere and Joan Biskupic are standing by with their new reporting up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:40]
BROWN: The next presidential election is still three years away, but CNN has learned that some top Senate Republicans are already making plans to block any effort by President Joe Biden to name a new Supreme Court justice if there is a vacancy.
CNN's Isaac Dovere and Joan Biskupic are following this important story.
Isaac, I want to start with you. What are you hearing about those plan to kill a nomination that hasn't even happened?
ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I spoke with a number of Senate Republicans last week who were very matter of fact about it, including Chuck Grassley, the ranking member on the Judiciary Committee, saying if the Republicans take the majority in the Senate, they would not confirm a replacement nominee from Joe Biden for Stephen Breyer's seat. They are escalating the partisan fight has become Supreme Court politics even further and being very clear that that is where things are headed.
And that leaves Senate Democrats and the White House in a very tough spot over this because they want Stephen Breyer to retire, they would like him to retire as soon as tomorrow as one of them put it to me, but they are worried that if they pressure him publicly, that he will stay on the bench in a sense just to show that he is not bowing to partisan politics, and so they are very much up in arms about what to do.
BROWN: So let's talk a little bit more about Justice Breyer. He is 83 years old. He has been on the bench since 1994.
Joan, what do you know about the odds of him retiring?
JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: It's nice to see you, Pamela. And I actually think that the odds are pretty strong for retirement this spring, for him to finish out the term that ends in June, but to give word to the White House before then. Before he went on the bench and before he was even a law professor, he was a Senate Judiciary Committee staffer. He knows the score, he knows what things are all about, and he was around for Ruth Bader Ginsberg.
He saw what happened when she didn't step down and was succeeded by Amy Coney Barrett with the entire, you know, law of the land changing because of that switch. Now I spoke with him a few weeks ago when he was on one of his book tours and I asked him how he felt about all the pressure from people, and he was well aware of it, but you might want to just listen to what he said about the noise from Democrats for him to go now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER, SUPREME COURT: The truth, I think, is, there's always hope. You know, you can always hope for your more mature self, which is there sometimes. And this is a country in which every day I see this in this document, but number one, it's called freedom of speech, and that means freedom of expression.
BISKUPIC: So you think let them say what they want?
BREYER: I do believe that.
BISKUPIC: But are you really -- but you must be irked somehow. This must drive you nuts a little bit, right?
BREYER: If you -- I mean, please.
(LAUGHTER)
BISKUPIC: I didn't mean to slip into an informal way of asking you a question, Justice Breyer.
BREYER: No, it's fine. I was thinking of Harry Truman. If it's too hot, get out of the kitchen.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Wow. So there you go. I remember when you did that excellent interview with Stephen Breyer there, Joan, and he didn't quite want to give a firm answer on that, but as you said, you expect in the spring that he could be heading in that direction.
Joan Biskupic, Isaac Dovere, excellent and very important reporting. We have seen just the impact just recently with all of these cases that the Supreme Court can have on this country, and we appreciate your reporting, looking ahead to what could happen if Republicans take the majority of the Senate. Thank you both.
DOVERE: Thank you.
BROWN: Well, you are not alone. This new wave of COVID cases is making many of us anxious. So how do we get through it? Jon Hershfield, a specialist in OCD and anxiety disorders, joins us next.
[18:39:40]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It is a sobering weekend here in the United States as the country prepares for what could be the biggest COVID wave yet. Postponed football games, canceled college classes, long lines for COVID-19 tests. Images that create flashbacks to the start of the pandemic. And just as it appeared to be coming to an end, many of us have done everything right. Vaccinations, social distancing, face masks.
Yet in spite of it all, the virus remains, and just as we thought we were turning a corner, bam. As Americans prepare for a third year of pandemic living, therapists say they're witnessing a nationwide mental health crisis. For some of us, it's fear and anxiety, for others, it's white-hot rage. But all of us are left wondering, when will this ever end?
Joining me now are anxiety and OCD specialists Jon Hershfield and CNN politics reporter and editor-at-large Chris Cillizza.
[18:40:07]
I've so been looking forward to this segment because I think so many people right now especially are dealing with this just sort of heightened anxiety. And Chris, I know you wrote this op-ed about what you are going through. We're going to get to that in just a second.
John, I want to start with you, though, to kind of lay it out for us. You know, I think this week the reality that this pandemic is likely far from over kicked in for many of us. How do we cope?
JON HERSHFIELD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Pamela, thank you so much for having me on to talk about this important subject. We are seeing an increased need for services across every facet imaginable, so coping is what's on everybody's mind right now. How do we cope with something that seems so relentless? We think we got it and then we learned like, nope, we're still back where we started again, so the answer to your question is how do we cope, is first I think we need to own the fact that it's reasonable to be anxious.
Anxiety is a normal human emotion. And when we're dealing with higher levels of anxiety over longer periods of time we get frustrated with ourselves, so the next thing we want to make sure we're doing is that we're being self-compassionate and that we're not turning on ourselves. We're all doing the best we can with what we've got.
Other strategies for coping that are extremely important of course are being present. Most of what we're anxious about is the future, the unknown, and the more things we can put in our life that are present focused, whether that's through meditation or exercise or connecting with the things that bring you joy, those can be very helpful as well. And of course, it should always be said that it's never too soon to ask for help. Everybody has the right to ask for help when they need it.
BROWN: Yes. I've asked for help and it did help me tremendously. My anxiety is so much better than it was last year when I went through a really hard time in life.
So, Chris, you write on CNN.com that your COVID anxiety is only just now spiking. You said Thanksgiving like you were feeling good about things, and then it was like right after it took a turn for the worse. What's been going on?
CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Yes, I mean, I think the issue is, the thing I've always been good at in life is following the rules. And this, to your point, Pam, you know, there appeared to be some set of rules with this, right? Like for the first year we were social distancing, we were wearing
masks, we were avoiding big crowds, we weren't traveling as much, we were keeping our circle tight, and then we were getting the first shot of the vaccine and the second shot of the vaccine, and in my case, at least, the booster shot. And then we were getting -- I have two kids under age 12, getting them vaccinated.
Today actually marks the day that everyone in my family, my immediate family, my mom, my wife, myself and my two boys, are either boosted or fully vaccinated. So I had circled this date on the calendar like, awesome, December 19th, before Christmas. You know, and up until like Tuesday, I felt pretty good about that. And I think that's something that drives anxiety for me and I think for so many people is the uncertainty, right?
I was actually OK when there were a set of rules we had to follow. Like yes, I didn't enjoy not going anywhere for months on end, but at least it was like if we followed these rules, we'll get this outcome. Now it feels like, well, we followed all these rules and the outcome that we wanted isn't there, and it feels like this could go on in perpetuity. Whether it can or not, that's how it feels. I think that's what really is tough.
BROWN: Yes. And I think --
CILLIZZA: At least for me.
BROWN: You hit such an important point, uncertainty. That is really the driver of so much anxiety that I've learned in my own life because it's sort of a realization that things aren't in your control as much as you want them to be in control.
So I'm wondering, Jon, what you are seeing. You know, the "New York Times" is reporting that mental health professionals like yourself, they are experiencing a huge uptick in demand, and that some are actually having to turn patients away. Walk us through kind of what you're seeing and what patients are grappling with, whether it be, you know, OCD over germs, whether it be moral scrupulosity, that, you know, parents concerned that they're going to give their kids COVID. Walk us through that.
HERSHFIELD: Yes. All of the above. I think it's important to remember that we were in the middle of a national mental health crisis before COVID. And then since the pandemic, things have only gotten worse. So we're seeing an increased need for services and Shepherd Pratt provides a lot of different services and still it keeps coming.
And especially with children and adolescents. And I think also what's happening is we're seeing a lot of children and adolescents coming in with mental health concerns when also their parents have mental health needs that aren't getting met, but of course parents are putting themselves second.
So what I -- people will often talk about, well, OK, so, OCD, you wash your hands a lot, and COVID must be really hard for you. That's true, but what I'm seeing at least at the center for OCD and anxiety isn't so much an increase in handwashing and health anxiety.
[18:45:06]
It's an increase in anxiety across the board. And I'm also seeing a large increase in, you mentioned it, moral scrupulosity, meaning people are really struggling with, am I doing things right? Am I a good person? Could I hurt somebody else? And then with that of course comes all the other interest of thoughts that come with OCD.
And these people are often suffering in silence, and it's a terrible recipe because with the pandemic they're also spending more time alone and they're doing less of their social activities that keep them present, so they're spending a lot more time ruminating. So that's where I'm really seeing the worst mental health symptoms coming out because people are really turning on themselves because they're turning in in an unkind way.
BROWN: Well, and I think what you said is so important to getting have some self-compassion. I think that is so important right now during this and don't be afraid to ask for help.
Jon Hershfield, Chris Cillizza, thanks to both of you. I hope we'll keep this conversation going because as we just talked about this pandemic doesn't seem to have an end in sight, at least for now, and anxiety is just on the rise. Thank you both.
HERSHFIELD: Thanks, Pam.
BROWN: Three retired generals with a warning about a possible insurrection in 2024. One of them, Brigadier General Steven Anderson, joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:50:47]
BROWN: As the congressional investigation into the January 6th insurrection continues, three retired military generals have authored an op-ed in the "Washington Post" saying they are growing more worried about the potential for political violence in the military. One part really stands out.
Quote, "As we approach the first anniversary of the deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, we, all of us former senior military officials are increasingly concerned about the aftermath of the 2024 presidential election and the potential for lethal chaos inside our military which would put all Americans at severe risk. In short, we chilled to our bones at the thought of a coup succeeding next time."
I'm joined now by one of the authors of that op-ed, retired Army Brigadier General Steven Anderson.
General, thank you for joining us tonight. This is a big step for you and your colleagues to speak out like this. What motivated you all to write this column now? BRIG. GEN. STEVEN M. ANDERSON (RET), U.S. ARMY: Well, thank you,
Pamela, for having us on. Yes, it's very difficult for me to talk like this, I mean, I was raised 31 years in the Army to be apolitical and not take sides. And I've never been active politically. But the events of the last couple of years in particular the 6th of January has changed my mind considerably. We can no longer afford to be apolitical.
I mean, I was a conservative Republican my entire political life, I voted as such, but I never was active until 2016 when things changed and Trump got hold of the Republican Party. And now it's -- it's completely lost itself. It's lost its way. And it's overwhelmed with cowards.
But, you know, 43 years ago I took an oath to the country that I would support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, and my co-authors and I and Vote Vets Organization we work with closely are -- we're tremendously concerned about the threat internally, the threat domestically, within the military in particular.
And so we needed to start taking actions now to prevent for the eventuality in 2024 that Trump will try to do the same things he did in 2020 in which he got incredibly close. We're just trying to write an article that highlights our view the democracy at risk. We love our country and we need to take actions now to mitigate that risk.
BROWN: Why are you so concerned about what's going on within the military in particular?
ANDERSON: Well, if you look at the extremism that has gone on within the military, you look at those that were active in the actual assault on the Capitol, over 10 percent had a military background. We all saw the pictures of the guys with the zip ties and the helmets and taking -- and marching in formations into that throng, you know, there's a threat within. We've got some people that just haven't been educated.
They haven't been found out and they're, they've grown in power through perhaps inaction on the parts of some of our key leaders and we need to do, what we can do now to identify those people, get them out of our ranks and train the rest the force on civics 101, about how the country is supposed to work, how elections work. Stop listening to the pillow guy and start learning about our country and how it's actually supposed to run.
BROWN: Really quickly, just walk us through your concern about this partisan divide and how it could impact the chain of command and why that is so concerning to you in terms of preventing another coup attempt, potentially in 2024.
ANDERSON: Well, the big problem here is allegiance to the Constitution versus allegiance to a leader. Remember, in this case, a cult-like figure like Trump. There's a lot of people in uniform that are confused about that. They think the president is something like a king, and it's not. You know, we swore an oath to the Constitution. That's how our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines need to act. And, you know, we're concerned that there's so much activity within
the military that shows that people are ignorant of what our Constitution is really all about and they have responded to people like Trump and when he tells them to jump, they're probably willing to do that.
[18:55:13]
BROWN: All right. That is just chilling, bone-chilling as you say in the op-ed.
Brigadier General Steven Anderson, thank you.
ANDERSON: Thank you.
BROWN: We're following two very big stories tonight. First, long lines for vaccines in places like New York City. And at the same time, New York sets a record for new COVID cases. It's the second straight day. In just a few minutes I'll talk to New York City's Mayor-Elect Eric Adams.
Plus, Senator Joe Manchin says he cannot back President Biden's big social safety net bill. This is a huge blow for President Biden so what will progressive Democrats do? I'm going to talk to Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell as NEWSROOM continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
