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Omicron Cases Rising; Joe Manchin Refuses to Support Build Back Better Bill. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 20, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Because that might be an inhibitor against their free speech and their freedom of action.

Here's how the Pentagon press secretary explained some of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Not everybody who participates in extremist activities is a card-carrying member of a group. Some people just get self-radicalized.

And there's many different factors that lead to them taking part in prohibited extremist activities. And so, again, keeping it to a group dynamic would actually limit our ability to deal with the issue. And the last thing I'd say is, there's no federal list of extremist groups.

And so we didn't think it was appropriate for the Department of Defense to establish one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: So you can join an extremist group, but you cannot actively participate in it. We will have to see in the coming months whether that makes a fundamental difference on any trend that develops on extremism in the ranks -- Victor.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: All right, Barbara Starr, thank you.

Top of the hour. I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

Five days now until Christmas, and the pandemic is taking what experts are calling a grim path forward. Today, the U.S. is averaging more than 130,000 new infections a day. That's a 10 percent increase over a week ago.

New York, an early epicenter of the pandemic, has seen record positive in the case numbers for three days in a row. Mayor Bill de Blasio says he will decide this week whether to go forward with New York famed New Year's Eve celebration in Times Square.

CNN's Jason Carroll is with me now.

So what more are we learning from the mayor, also from the governor today as they move forward on this new surge?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the mayor is saying a couple things.

First and foremost, he said earlier today, Victor, that there are no plans for any further shutdowns. Basically, he is saying that that would really cripple the city economically. But, having said that, the city is paying very close attention to the numbers here, especially in New York City, where they have seen the numbers steadily ticking upwards.

New York, for example, New York City COVID cases, more than doubled compared to last week. Most of those cases are among those people who are unvaccinated. But also, just to give this some perspective, when you look at the number of hospitalizations in New York City, those numbers are going up as well.

But they're not going up in a way that's alarming to those in the medical profession right now. So that's important to keep in perspective as we're looking at this in its totality.

Meanwhile, across the city, Victor, we have seen any number of people waiting in line for hours trying to get tested ahead of the holidays, some people going to drugstores trying to get those take-home rapid tests, have been found that those have been sold out.

The mayor is aware of the problem here in the city and he talked about addressing that need.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: We are now testing, in fact, more people than ever, 130,000-plus daily in the city sites. That is double the number of tests just three weeks ago. That's how fast things are ramping up.

This intense effort will keep growing as long as we need it to grow to address the demand. And what we're trying to do as much as possible is get those in-home test kits in play, particularly where we're seeing long lines.

Wherever possible, we're trying to, particularly at our city-run sites, if there's a long line, offer people the alternative of giving them an in-home test that they can take home with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: In addition to what you just heard there from the mayor, Mayor de Blasio also said that the city is adding 23 additional testing sites. That's on top of the 89 that they already have.

Those should be up and running by the end of the week. But having said that, Victor, there are a number of people who are critical of the mayor and his administration and the way that they have handled some of this recently, saying that there should be more testing sites, more at-home testing kits for those who need them, more staff available, and that the labs need to need to be quicker in terms of how they're processing some of those results.

In terms of Times Square, where we are right now, it is still a go for the ball drop. But having said that, the organizers are saying that anyone coming out here is going to have to show proof of vaccination. They are also not requiring masks, but they are recommending it -- Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, Jason Carroll there in Times Square.

Thank you Jason.

Moderna reported some encouraging preliminary data today. It says that it's COVID booster is effective against the Omicron variant.

CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here.

Elizabeth, that's a great banner headline. But I'm sure there's a lot more behind that we need to know. What is it?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Victor, there is a lot.

[15:05:00]

It's not entirely clear how effective or if it's really all that effective, this booster that Moderna is putting out now, the 50- microgram booster that you can get at pharmacies. It gets complicated, so let me sort of lay it all out.

Let's take a look at what Moderna said. So, Moderna said, when they looked at their current booster, which is 50 micrograms -- that's what you forget right now going to a pharmacy or wherever -- it did boost antibodies, but 100 micrograms boosted antibodies even higher.

And the effectiveness of either dose against Omicron is unclear. Just because you have boosted antibodies does not necessarily tell you exactly how effective it is or how long the sort of durability of any protection that it might give.

Now, the president of Moderna says, well, maybe it's possible that we could go to a 100-microgram dosage. That would be easy enough. That's what the first two shots of Moderna are. So they're sitting on shelves, but he said that's for up to public health authorities to decide.

So, now that you have heard all this, probably confused. What's the bottom line? The bottom line is that the booster does increase antibodies. And so it's better than having just two shots. Go ahead and get it. It's not going to hurt you. And, first of all, go ahead and get two shots if you haven't already. Get vaccinated and get boosted if it's your time to get boosted.

It does increase antibodies. How effective that is, we don't know. But it's more antibodies than if you just got two shots -- Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, so that's good. Let's move on to another study now that is putting a timeline on the

risk of a fully vaccinated person getting COVID. What did that find?

COHEN: Right.

So this study, it's important to note, was done before Omicron. And what it found was that there was actually -- it points to how the vaccines are good, but that the durability is not quite what we would like it to be. They don't last quite as long as we would like. So let's take a look.

This was actually a huge study done by CDC and state health departments. They looked at 50 million vaccinated people in 15 states. Those who were vaccinated in January or February, when you fast- forwarded to basically August, they had 169 out of 100,000 -- 169 cases out of 100,000 people.

If they were vaccinated in July, so many months later, they only had 63 cases. So, in other words, the folks who were vaccinated in July were less likely to get sick in August compared to the folks who were vaccinated in January or February.

So, this certainly makes the case for boosters. But I will say we don't know if these people got infected and then sick. We don't know how sick they were. But certainly seeing that there were more cases among those who were vaccinated further back, that certainly makes the case for boosters -- Victor.

BLACKWELL: Certainly does.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you very much.

Let's go to the White House now, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki taken some questions about Omicron and the surge.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: ... CDC recommends.

For those who choose to remain unvaccinated, he will issue a stark warning and make clear unvaccinated individuals will continue to drive hospitalizations and deaths.

That is not trying to scare people, or maybe it is trying to make clear to people in the country what the risks are here of not being vaccinated.

What is clear is that we're not in the same place that we were in, something he will reiterate tomorrow as well, the beginning of the pandemic, thanks to the president's extraordinary work to get over 200 million Americans vaccinated.

To be clear, COVID-19 is not the same threat to fully vaccinated individuals that it was in March of 2020. And I outlined some of the reasons why. And, again, as I said at the top, he will also announce additional steps. So he will outline this clearly tomorrow. He has been candid, and he

has been direct, as he's provided updates to the American public throughout on our steps to address what we know is an unpredictable virus and a once -- and our fight against a once-in-a-generation pandemic. But that's what people can expect tomorrow.

QUESTION: On the negotiations over Build Back Better, we see Senator Manchin's version of events sort of differ from the White House's version of events and your statement on Sunday. This was yesterday. (OFF-MIKE) long time ago.

I just wanted to know if you could talk a little bit out like where the -- where the gap is, if the negotiations fell apart over the child tax credit issue, if the White House is prepared to go around legislation on the CTC, if necessary. Kind of where are we with Manchin?

PSAKI: Well, I would say I think the lengthy statement that I issued yesterday outlined pretty specifically the events of the last few weeks.

And it was important to the president and to all of us to make that clear to the American people, the status and the steps that had been taken. But I'm not going to relitigate the ticktock of yesterday from here today.

I will say that, from the president's viewpoint, and I saw him this morning, he's worked with Senator Manchin over the course of decades. They share fundamental values. They're longtime friends. That has not changed.

[15:10:06]

And what's most on the president's mind is the risk of inaction. And if we do not act to get this legislation done, and the components in it, not only will costs and prices go up for the American people, but also we will see a trajectory in economic growth that is not where we want it to be. And we have seen projections from Goldman Sachs and others today on that front.

So he's no stranger to legislative challenges. And we are going to continue to take steps, work like hell to get it done.

Go ahead.

QUESTION: Does the president feel betrayed by his friend?

PSAKI: I think our statement yesterday made pretty clear what we feel was the factual depiction of events that happened.

But, again, the president sees Senator Manchin as somebody who is a longtime friend, somebody he has worked well together. And our objective and our focus now is moving forward.

QUESTION: Where do the lines of communication stand at this point between either the president and Joe Manchin, Joe Manchin and the White House staff he spoke about?

Is there contact at all?

PSAKI: I'm just not going to assess or give you an update on specifics from here.

QUESTION: Just quickly on COVID, ahead of tomorrow's speech, should Americans expect any new restrictions?

PSAKI: This is not a speech about locking the country down. This is a speech outlining and being direct and clear with the American people about the benefits of being vaccinated, the steps we're going to take to increase access and to increase testing, and the risks posed to unvaccinated individuals.

Go ahead.

QUESTION: Does the president still trust Senator Manchin?

PSAKI: Again, I understand the questions here. But our focus is on moving forward.

I think our statement yesterday made clear what the course of events were over the last couple of weeks. It was important for the American people to know and see that. But he considers Senator Manchin a longtime friend, and our focus is on moving forward and getting this done.

QUESTION: Are you confident that all 49 other members of the Democratic Caucus are still on board with Build Back Better, since we're looking ahead?

PSAKI: I think -- sure, I understand that. I can't obviously speak for all of them. But I think you saw quite a bit of unanimity yesterday in the response of people and their desire from across the Democratic Party and the desire to get this legislation done.

QUESTION: What would be his message to progressives who he asked to hang with him as things moved over to the Senate, now that what many of them warned has happened?

PSAKI: Well, I would say, one, his message would be, we need to work together to get this done. And he's going to work like hell to get it done.

And that would be his message. And January is an opportunity to do exactly that.

QUESTION: Quickly on Ukraine.

PSAKI: Yes.

QUESTION: The State Department issued a level four travel warning today, saying U.S. citizens should be aware of reports that Russia is planning for significant military action against Ukraine. Jake Sullivan spoke with his Russian counterpart again today.

Apparently, over at the Pentagon, they have just said that they have conducted an assessment of air defense needs in Ukraine.

Obviously, you have said you're monitoring this. Is U.S. intelligence picking up something new?

PSAKI: Well, let me first say that the travel advisory for Ukraine remains a level four, do not travel, due to COVID-19.

The State Department updated it to include information on Russia's military buildup on Ukraine's border, just to provide additional information, but it has been at a level four.

QUESTION: So, nothing new otherwise?

PSAKI: Well, again, they provide -- they -- the State Department provides additional information through travel advisories to make sure they are being transparent with American citizens who are in different countries. And that's exactly what they did in this case.

And we have historically seen large numbers of Americans and others, of course, traveling to Ukraine during this time of year in the holiday season. So it was just an effort to provide that information directly.

Go ahead.

QUESTION: Jen, your statement yesterday alluded to working more on Build Back Better next year.

Is your expectation that President Biden and Senator Manchin will talk at all before the end of the year?

PSAKI: I'm just not going to give you any updates on their engagements from here, I wouldn't expect. And we're going to keep those private.

QUESTION: Got it.

And do you regard his $1.8 trillion proposal as a nonstarter, given that it excludes child tax credit?

PSAKI: I think the president has been clear about -- and I will let Senator Manchin speak to the specifics of his proposal. I'm not going to confirm those details from here of what I know I have seen -- I know there have been reports out there, but I will let him speak to that.

But I would say that the president, of course, wants to extend the child tax credit. That's something he has spoken to. We know that it was a significant contributor to cutting in half the child poverty rate. I'm obviously not going to negotiate from here. But he's doesn't think compromise is a dirty word either.

QUESTION: One further question. On Sunday, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio asked the president to invoke the Defense Production Act because of a shortage of at-home tests, monoclonal antibody treatments, and he also said that the Pfizer antiviral pills should be fast-tracked.

If -- are any of those things under consideration at this moment?

[15:15:00]

PSAKI: Well, we're in touch, I will say first, with the city of New York and the state, as well as other -- all officials across the country experiencing upticks.

We have sent 30 ambulances to the state and an accompanying team of personnel to help balance patient loads among hospitals across the state. We have already used the Defense Production Act and spent $3 billion to greatly expand the number of at-home tests. So, that's already something we have tapped into.

And as I noted earlier, the president will have more to say tomorrow in his remarks about our efforts to expand access.

BLACKWELL: All right, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki there taking questions about primarily two topics, the decision from Senator Joe Manchin that he's a no on the Build Back Better Act and also the president's speech coming tomorrow as we see this surge of Delta variant cases here in the U.S. and the spread of Omicron.

Here with me now, CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny, and CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju.

Jeff, let me start with you.

We heard from Jen Psaki there that the speech will be about three things, the benefits of being vaccinated, how they will increase testing and access to testing, and also the risks that people will face as being unvaccinated.

Are we expecting to hear anything new, because those three topics we have heard from the White House before?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Victor, we aren't necessarily expecting to hear anything new, except the White House continuing to draw a line, as they have been trying to do, between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated, again making the plea that this is not like March of 2020, even though some sporting events have been canceled, even though Broadway shows have been dark.

Of course, the concerns may feel the same. But the White House is trying to make clear that this is a different situation, and I think also strikingly the White House press secretary saying that this is not a lockdown speech, in her words. The White House is not going to go down that road, but they are going to try and draw a distinction between vaccinated and unvaccinated and the dangers for unvaccinated and unboosted Americans, that dangers on the health care system, et cetera. So that certainly is going to be the theme of the speech. One thing

that we will see the president say tomorrow is more on testing. That is one big controversy this administration has struggled to get its arms around, more testing capacity. So that could be one area of some new information.

But, Victor, it is largely the same speech, but a different set of circumstances, certainly, and a new variant.

BLACKWELL: Yes, circumstances certainly are changing.

Manu, let me come to you.

Jen was asked about the president, the White House's message to progressives there on the Hill. How is this no from Manchin and how things have kind of happened over the last 24 hours, how's that resonating on the Hill?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, members are extremely frustrated, because they had spent months negotiating a bill that they thought had a chance of passage in the House.

They passed -- a number of these Democrats, including ones who are in difficult districts, swing districts that could become Republican in the midterms, ultimately voted yes, in the anticipation that their this bill would eventually become law and they could campaign on issues related to housing, to health care, to climate change, and expanding of Medicare, as well as providing more money into the Affordable Care Act, all of which they thought would be beneficial politically back home.

But by Joe Manchin saying that he would be no, that essentially sinks the entire effort, unless they can figure out another way forward. And right there, as you heard from Jen Psaki, she did not walk back any of the scathing criticism that the White House leveled against Joe Manchin, did not discuss whether or not the president still trusts Senator Manchin, also would not talk about the discussions and whether or not the president plans to have discussions with Joe Manchin going forward.

But, ultimately, in order to get anything through, even if it's a scaled-back plan, even if it's to move individual pieces of this proposal, they will have to ultimately get Joe Manchin on board. It's a 50/50. Senate. If they go through the process to avoid a Republican filibuster, that means they cannot afford a single Democratic defection no matter what the proposal ultimately looks like here.

So Democrats on the Hill, Victor, are trying to say, we're going to get something done. We're still going to push to get this done. But what it looks like, can they get it done, can they get it done in a timely fashion, all of which leaves Democrats essentially conceding that certainly the big bill won't get done, but will any bill get done? That is the big question as they have promised so much to the voters.

Will they come up with anything? Will they be completely empty-handed by next November? That's the big question. They at least say they have the infrastructure bill to point to that they passed, as well as the COVID relief package. But the social safety net package, that could ultimately be done for the rest of this Congress.

BLACKWELL: Jeff, there was a noticeable tonal shift from Jen Psaki, as compared to that statement that was released on Sunday.

When she was asked if the president felt betrayed by Senator Manchin, she wouldn't go there. She kind of referred to the statement. What do you read into what we're hearing from Jen Psaki today vs. what we read from her yesterday?

[15:20:10]

ZELENY: I read into that to Victor that this measured tone was an expected one.

It is the tone that we have seen talking with advisers here throughout the day. Look, they meant everything that they said in that statement yesterday. She didn't back away from it, but simply did not repeat it on camera.

And, look, they're trying to find a way forward. And as Manu just said, right there, the hard, cold math of it all is if they want to get anything accomplished, even a scaled-back version or some other smaller pieces of this, they still need Joe Manchin.

And, look, President Biden has been involved in the Senate and in this town a very long time, as has Senator Joe Manchin. So their relationship is an evolving relationship. They certainly are going to work together in some degrees.

But what I read into that is that the White House press secretary is not going to litigate that or frame that conversation from the White House podium. We don't even know if they have spoken yet. We don't believe they have spoken since this bombshell yesterday, but she would not even confirm that, so certainly trying to take the temperature down a little bit, if you will, heading into the holidays.

But, again, key, Joe Manchin is still as important to this as he ever was.

BLACKWELL: Jeff Zeleny, Manu Raju thank you both.

ZELENY: Sure.

BLACKWELL: And in a new radio interview, Senator Joe Manchin is blaming White House staff for its handling of talks over the Build Back Better package. He says that he was at his wit's end in negotiations with the White House.

Up next, I will speak with the host who landed that interview with Senator Manchin.

Also, former President Trump is now suing New York's attorney general. The lawsuit is trying to stop the A.G.'s office from continuing its investigation into the Trump Organization. We have got new details ahead.

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[15:26:08]

BLACKWELL: Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says the Build Back Better plan will get a floor vote early next year.

And the White House insists the president is still friends with Senator Joe Manchin. That's despite Manchin's decision that he's a no on the cornerstone bill for the president's agenda.

In a radio interview today, Manchin suggested that White House staff drove him to that decision.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): You know me, always willing to work and listen and try. I just got to the wit's end. And they know the real reason what happened. They won't tell you.

And I'm not going to because I...

(CROSSTALK)

HOPPY KERCHEVAL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

MANCHIN: No.

KERCHEVAL: Wait. Wait. You said you there is -- they know the real reason, they're not going to tell us, you're not going to tell us.

What do you mean? What's the real -- so there's...

MANCHIN: Well, the bottom line is, there was -- they're, basically -- and his staff. It's staff-driven.

I understand staff. It's not the president. It's the staff. And they drove some things and they put some things out that were absolutely inexcusable.

And they know what it is. And that's it.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: With me now is Hoppy Kercheval. He is the radio host for MetroNews' "Talkline" in West Virginia.

He interviewed Senator Manchin this morning.

Hoppy, thank you for your time.

KERCHEVAL: Sure.

BLACKWELL: Let me start there with the senator suggesting that the statement from the White House really isn't the truth about how this all ended, and that there was something else at play here.

Did you get any clarity from the senator on what that was?

KERCHEVAL: You know, Victor, as you heard there, we were rolling along in the interview. And I said that, wait, wait, wait, what are you talking about here?

And he did not elaborate. But I got the sense that there was something else at play here that did not have to do specifically with the president, but rather with staff somewhere in the negotiations that caused Manchin some heartburn.

Here's what's important to remember about Manchin. Manchin wants to get to yes. I have known him for a long time back to his days as governor. He's negotiated a lot of deals. He tries to get to yes. And you have to help him get to yes. But if he feels like that somebody is trying to circumvent him or go around him or put undue pressure, he can handle pressure, but put undue pressure on him, he's going to bow his back and he's going to push back.

And I think that's what happened here.

BLACKWELL: He wants to get to yes, but, as he pointed out, he's been at 1.$5 trillion since March, right?

If these negotiations were actually progressing, to get to, I have been at the same place for nine months now, was he a fair actor? Do you believe that everyone else at the table was a fair actor as well?

KERCHEVAL: Well, I think that's a great point.

Manchin, what he told me today and what he said yesterday about the his concerns, the cost of the legislation, the impact on inflation, no work requirement for the child tax credit, those kinds of things, those have been issues all along, I mean, since he first started talking about five or six months ago.

So I don't want to speak for him. But I get the impression that he -- those have been issues for him all along that have not been substantially addressed. He seemed to suggest in the interview today that all the administration did was just lower the size, but not deal with some of the other fundamental issues that he had concerns about.

BLACKWELL: So what I love about your show is that it's a call-in show and that you hear from people their reaction to what is in the news and the newsmakers on your show.

We know that this child tax credit could certainly help the people of West Virginia. What's been the reaction to the decision from Senator Manchin?

KERCHEVAL: Remember this, Victor, that West Virginia is a red state.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

KERCHEVAL: Donald Trump won the state by 40 points. And Joe Manchin is...

BLACKWELL: Oh, that was the question I really wanted an answer to.

Hopefully, we can get Hoppy Kercheval back to talk more about what we -- he has heard from his listeners.

Let's bring it now Charlie Dent, CNN political commentator and a former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania.

Congressman, good to have you.