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Rep. Scott Perry Declines Jan. 6th Committee Request for Interview; Rep. Kinzinger: "I Don't Want to Go There Yet" on Trump Criminality; Jan. 6th Committee Weighs Changes to Electoral Count Act; Update on International Coronavirus Responses as Omicron Spreads; Biden to Announce 500 Million COVID Tests to be Made Available; COVID Fears Grip NYC Residents as Cases Rise in State. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired December 21, 2021 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:30:35]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: We have some important new developments in the January 6th investigation. Republican Congressman Scott Perry says he's declining an invitation to be interviewed by the House Select Committee investigating the capitol attack.

Perry is the first sitting lawmaker to be asked to voluntarily speak with members of this committee.

They want more details on Perry's role in former President Trump's push to overturn the election, specifically Perry's alleged attempt to install ally, Jeffrey Clark, as acting attorney general.

The committee has cited text and other communications Perry had with former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, during that time as well.

And "The New York Times" today is reporting that the committee is planning to hold public hearings early in the new year.

Let's discuss with CNN senior legal analyst, Elie Honig, who is also a former federal and state prosecutor.

First, Elie, your reaction to Congressman Scott Perry refusing this invitation to sit down for an interview. And how do you see this playing out. What comes next?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, my first reaction is, Ana, is this guy has something to hide. He says in his statement he's all for the rule of law. Why not come forward and answer questions then?

It's important to understand Scott Perry's role in this. He was a middleman between the White House, on one hand, and DOJ on the other. He tried to enlist DOJ in this plot to steal the election.

And one thing that really caught my attention, as a former prosecutor, is the way Scott Perry communicated with Mark Meadows, according to the committee, was by an encrypted app, Signal.

Again, why would you do that unless you were trying to hide something?

How does this play out from here? First of all, the committee has to decide whether it wants to issue a subpoena, which is a formal command to testify.

And if Perry continues to defy it, then the question for the committee is, will they hold one of their own members in contempt? They have done it already with Steve Bannon. They've done it with Mark Meadows.

And we'll see if they have the same appetite for Scott Perry.

CABRERA: He's really a test case because he's the first sitting member of Congress the committee has requested to speak with. Do you expect to see more of this?

HONIG: I do, Ana. I've been critical of the committee up until now for handling its own members with kid gloves for not questioning Kevin McCarthy and Jim Jordan.

Well, now they have crossed that had line with Scott Perry. And I think we'll see more of that to come.

CABRERA: "The New York Times" is reporting today that the committee is trying to decide if they have enough evidence of criminal conduct either by former President Trump or others to make what is known as a criminal referral to the Department of Justice.

I want you to listen to a member of the January 6th Committee, Congressman Adam Kinzinger, what he said about the possibility of criminal charges against former President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): I don't want to go there yet to say do I believe that he has. I think that's obviously a pretty big thing to say. We want to know though.

And I think by the end of our investigation, and by the time our report is out, we'll have a pretty good idea. We'll be able to have on the public record anything that the Justice Department needs maybe in pursuit of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So I thought that was interesting. Can you walk us through how a criminal referral to the DOJ would work?

HONIG: Ana, a criminal referral, it's not formally, technically, legally binding on anybody. It's up to prosecutors and DOJ, not Congress, whether they want to charge.

Prosecutors get referrals all day every day from different sources. However, as a practical matter, a criminal referral from Congress, from this committee, after all of the evidence that they have uncovered, I think would be an incredibly powerful criminal statement. That's a very dramatic step to take. And I think it would significantly increase public pressure and political pressure on DOJ to do something to meaningfully investigate as least to people behind the Big Lie and January 6th.

CABRERA: "The Times" also reports this January 6th committee is looking to changing the Electoral Count Act. How does that play into their work?

HONIG: They really ought to do this, Ana. This act goes back to 1876, when it was passed. And there are parts of the act that are sort of hard to decipher.

This is what enabled Donald Trump and others to try to get Mike Pence to throw the election. They took the act, they put a ridiculous spin on it.

But there's enough in it that they were able to argue, well, Mike Pence has the authority to throw out electoral votes that he does not like. That's not the case.

But let's clean up the law here. And let's make it entirely clear that the vice president's role, whether it's Mike Pence or Kamala Harris, the only role of the vice president is to count the votes and has no authority to throw them out on a whim.

[13:35:09]

CABRERA: And this is just now another, I guess, argument for the committee that they are in, you know, full legal scope of this investigation because their work could lead to legislation, right?

And that's been one of the claims that we've heard against the committee as Trump as others have argued that they are kind of out of bounds in their request for information or for a specific interview or testimony.

Elie Honig, it's real great to have your expertise as always. You're a great guide when it comes to all the legal complicating factors here. Thank you so much.

HONIG: Thanks, Ana. I appreciate it.

CABRERA: And when we come back, the global battle against the Omicron variant. Our correspondents in Canada, Rome and Japan are going to give us a glimpse of what's happening in their hot spots.

Stay with us.

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CABRERA: The rise of the Omicron variant is also hitting hard on our neighbors to the north.

As Paula Newton reports, it's triggering tough new restrictions for millions of Canada's second-biggest province of Quebec.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Paula Newton in Ottawa, where Canada's top doctor is warning Canadians to keep the holiday gatherings small.

She's now fearful that Canada's public health care system will be overwhelmed if gatherings get out of hand.

She's also warning everyone to ditch the cloth masks, saying they aren't effective enough right now.

Most Canadians are restricted to having 10 people or less in their homes over the holidays. But the situation is most acute in Quebec where cases continue to rise dramatically.

And that province has now closed bars, movie theaters, casinos. It is sending some schoolchildren home early for the holidays. And it says the situation right now there's critical.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Ben Wedeman, north of Rome.

In cities across Europe, including London, Paris and Rome, public holiday festivities are being cancelled as a wave of COVID, including the highly contagious Omicron variant, sweeps across the continent.

France is seeing the highest number of severely ill COVID patients since May of this year. And French officials expect the current wave to peak sometime between Christmas and New Year's.

In Germany, officials are considering banning private gatherings of more than 10 people and shutting down discos and night clubs.

And in Italy's Lazio region, where Rome is located, the governor has signed an order making the wearing of masks mandatory in public.

SELINA WANG, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Selina Wang in Tokyo. All across Asia, the Omicron variant is disrupting reopening plans.

Australia's New South Wales reported a record nearly 3,000 new COVID- 19 cases. And cases in Queensland are doubling every two days.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison says he wants to avoid travel restrictions a head of Christmas. He says the country is not going back to lockdowns or, quote, "shutting down people's lives."

Meanwhile, China is trying to contain a cluster in the city of Xian. The city has reported 91 COVID-19 cases since December 9th. The city has launched testing of all of its nearly 1,300 residents.

With the Winter Olympics coming up, China is now doubling down on its zero-COVID strategy. Authorities have urged residents in any city where COVID-19 cases have been confirmed to avoid travel for the upcoming Lunar New Year holiday.

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CABRERA: Thanks to all our reporters, Paula Newton, Ben Wedeman and Selina Wang.

And up next, we go live to the streets of New York City where anxious residents are waiting in these long lines just to get a COVID test. What's happening here, when we come back.

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CABRERA: We will hear from President Joe Biden as the country faces a surge in COVID cases and the Omicron variant becomes dominant here in the U.S.

The president, we're expecting, will announce that 500 million at-home test kits will be made available next month. This, as the demand for COVID testing soars.

CNN's Jason Carroll is joining us from outside a testing site in New York City where there are more long lines today.

Jason, what are you hearing from these people waiting in line and from city officials?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, hearing that you have to have a lot of patience. At this line in Queens, you can see that the line extends all the -- people having to wait an hour and a half sometimes, even a little bit longer before they can come here and get their test.

Help is on the way. The mayor announcing just this afternoon, saying that the federal government is going to be heading to New York City to help set up test sites, like the one that we're just seeing right now.

In addition to that, the mayor also saying that he's been in touch with President Biden's team.

And he says that, according to what he's been learning, that, quote, "a major shipment" -- this is in the mayor's word -- "a major shipment" of test kits is on the way as well. So some developments there.

All this as new COVID numbers are in. And it's just like what we've been hearing over the past few days, the numbers continue to rise across the state and in the city as well.

If you look at what the state, what's happening here, it has broken for the fourth consecutive day. The number of new infections with topping out at more than 23,000.

Most of those infections right here in New York City, with more than 15,000. Again, those are the latest numbers. The mayor basically saying that, at this point, he says that the --

that the worst part of the wave is not behind New Yorkers, but it's still ahead of New Yorkers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NEW YORK): It's going to be a challenging few weeks, there's no question about it. We are seeing a big upsurge in cases.

Thankfully, in general, they are more mild. And thankfully the health care system is well positioned to deal with it.

[13:50:03]

But it will be a tough few weeks and we need to understand that and we need to do everything possible to address that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: Getting vaccinated, getting booster shots is something the mayor has continuously pushed.

And this afternoon, Ana, he also announced what the city is offering a $100 incentive for all the people out here in the city who have gotten vaccine shots to get booster shots.

A $100 incentive to get a booster shot if you get it at a city site. That will be effect from now until January 31st -- Ana?

CABRERA: This is all such deja vu.

Thank you so much, Jason Carroll, for your reporting.

Let's get some insight from our next guest, Dr. Carlos Del Rio, associate executive dean of the Emery University School of Medicine.

We are seeing the lock lines for testing here in New York City and other parts of the country. How is this still happening?

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, EXECUTIVE ASSOCIATE DEAN, EMORY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Well, Ana, it's simply because the virus is incredibly transmissible. What you have right now is simply the demand for testing is outstripping -- far outstripping the supply.

A lot of people want to be tested because they are symptomatic or exposed. If you want to be tested. you find a big line. I was driving by a testing site in Atlanta and the line is probably two hours.

CABRERA: Is this a failure by the administration not to have prioritized testing more? Again, we're two years in here.

DEL RIO: Well, you know the problem is, you know, at some point in time, you have too much test capacity. At some point, too little capacity. I don't think anybody predicted we are in the situation we are right

now with a virus so different. Omicron is so, so transmissible that simply keeping up with testing is very hard.

We should have had more rapid testing available. That was an error. We should have made a partnership with companies producing rapid tests and have those readily available and easy to access and affordable.

I mean, $25, what you pay if you find one today in CVS or local drug store or store. It's simply way too much. We should have been able to buy those under $5 and should be plenty available.

The problem is that was not planned. And that's a mistake. Now the president is talking about ramping up production and having more tests available, which is great, but it's clearly late.

CABRERA: We are playing catch-up. And we know it can be done. Europe has gotten the testing program figured out better than the U.S., it appears, with more accessibility and cheaper test options.

We know the president will be addressing the nation soon on Omicron, on his plans. What will you be listening for?

DEL RIO: You know, I'm hoping to see three things.

I'm hoping to hear more support to hospitals and health systems, because some are already struggling with Delta, let alone Omicron.

Number two, I'm hoping to continue to hear ways in which we have more rapid testing.

I mean, this initial proposal, back on December 2nd, of get your rapid test and then submit a reimbursement to the insurance is absolutely ludicrous. We need testing available and affordable and free basically so people can use it.

And number three, I hope to hear more -- more support to vaccination sites and places that are doing boosting.

Because, you know, you are running out of personnel. They are either in the hospital or at vaccination and testing sites. But many places struggle having personnel at both sites.

We need to have those three addressed.

CABRERA: With all the holiday travel, what's your guidance? Who should plan gatherings, who shouldn't?

DEL RIO: I want people to gather but gather safely.

I'm going to tell you what I'm doing. I'm gathering with my family. Limiting the number of people there. Everybody is going to be vaccinated. Not everybody is boosted because not everybody has been able to get boosting.

We are going to be making sure that nobody who attends has any symptoms, even though they may say this is just a cold.

And then we test everybody. I'm giving everybody for Christmas a rapid COVID test kit. And before you come into the gathering, we want everybody tested. I think if we do that, we're going to be safe.

Also, we'll have windows open. We'll try to do it in a way with good ventilation. By doing that, we hope to minimize the risk.

CABRERA: Good advice. Good information. Thank you for detailing all that.

We're seeing the case surge right now. But the silver lining is that more people are vaccinated than last winter, right?

There's a large chunk of the population who only received two doses, not the third. How protected are those people?

And if someone recently got the second dose, and aren't eligible for a booster yet, right? Should they be able to get a booster sooner than six months after the second dose?

DEL RIO: Well, you know, we don't know the data. It may be four months is good enough. You shouldn't get it shorter than that because it doesn't work. But ideally, somewhere between four and six months.

[13:54:58]

If you've gotten two doses of mRNA vaccine, you are fairly well protected against severe illness and death. You're not that protected against symptomatic infection.

Your protection against symptomatic infection is only about 30 to 40 percent. Not zero. Better than zero. But don't be surprised if you are infected and develop symptoMs.

My suggestion is, if you develop symptoms, isolate yourself so you don't infect other people.

You're absolutely right. We still have a lot of people in the country also not yet vaccinated. And I'm more worried about those individuals, quite frankly.

CABRERA: Dr. Carlos Del Rio, great to have you here. Thank you so much for all you do and for joining us today.

DEL RIO: Happy to be with you.

CABRERA: That does it for this hour. I'm Ana Cabrera.

Reminder, we are waiting for the remarks from President Biden from the White House. Of course, we will carry those live here on CNN when that happens.

I'll be right back.

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CABRERA: Hello again. And thanks for joining us. I'm Ana Cabrera in for Victor and Alisyn.