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Americans Struggle to Get Tested as COVID Cases Surge; Jury Deliberations Resume in Ghislaine Maxwell Sex Trafficking Trial; Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV) to Democratic Caucus, I've Been Consistent on My Issues with BBB. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 22, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: A very good Wednesday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

To be clear, no shutdowns, no lockdowns, but, right now, the U.S. is seeing a big increase in new COVID infections. And with that, a major surge in some parts of the country in demand for testing. President Biden laid out his plan to fight the fast-spreading omicron variant, a plan which includes several new measures to expand both testing and vaccinations.

As Americans begin to gather for the holidays, President Biden reassured them he will not close down the country, saying those who are vaccinated can celebrate safely while sending a sharp message to those who still don't have their shots.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Almost everyone who has died from COVID-19 in the past many months has been unvaccinated.

And I honest to God believe it's your patriotic duty.

The choice can be the difference between life or death.

Please get vaccinated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: I mean, the data is so clear. Those who are vaccinated, much lower chance of being hospitalized or dying. The surge in new infections has led to an increase in hospitalization.

This is important. While infections are jumping, it is overall hospitalizations we need to keep an eye on. Those are the people getting severely ill. And right now, to be clear, they are rising steadily but not yet spiking.

Let's begin with one look at the demand for testing this morning. CNN's Shimon Prokupecz, he's at a pop-up testing site in New York.

I mean, the good thing here, right, is people want to know their status. They want to be able to protect themselves and the people around them. It's just that more people want those tests than there is availability. So, how is the city responding to that?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. Hundreds of thousands of people here in New York and New York City demanding -- the demand for testing is so high, so they're going to try to increase the number of sites, city-run sites. But it's sites like this all across Manhattan and New York City, where private businesses, private labs have opened up these kinds of pop-up locations where people can come and get tested, rapid tests and PCR tests at this one site today. And people have been lining up here pretty steadily coming through. There's a good system here getting tested and leaving.

The positivity rate certainly concerning for New York City, it's over 11 percent. The latest numbers show that some 14,000 people just here in New York City have tested positive, slightly down from 15,000 the day before.

Despite all this, Jim, the mayor today really sounding positive, saying that despite all of this, people should live their lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NEW YORK CITY, NY): We are not telling people to hide or hunker down or surrender to this situation. We're telling people to be smart.

We're not telling vaccinated people to stop living their lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And the thing, Jim, obviously, is he wants, the mayor saying, people should do things safely. The big question obviously is New Year's Eve and are plans going to change in terms of festivities there.

He indicated this morning that, right now, it looks like things are going to go as planned. They are going to increase some of the safety measures. He's going to let us know in the next few days what those may be. But when you walk around New York City and go to restaurants and shopping, people are out and about. Yes, more people are masking, which is very good. Indoors, obviously, it is required in order to go inside. And even outdoors, we're seeing so many people wearing masks. So, the safety measures are in place. But a lot of people here certainly listening to the mayor, and, as you said, Jim, testing right now is the key thing for many people.

SCIUTTO: Shimon Prokupecz in New York, thanks so much.

So, here is an interesting question and there does seem to be a possibility of movement on this, and that is the number of days you need to isolate if you test positive for COVID-19 here in the U.S. The U.K. has announced that beginning today, they're cutting the self- isolation period, to be clear, for vaccinated people from the current ten days to seven days. The idea being they don't want a shortage of workers, right, as people stay at home if they test positive. CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen joins us now. Elizabeth, Dr. Fauci raised this possibility for health care workers on CNN's air yesterday. Is this something the U.S. is considering more broadly?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think they're considering it very seriously. Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the head of the CDC, also talked about it. And it's been our experience that when they say, we're considering something, it usually does end up happening. And it is just for the reason that you said, Jim, the essential workers, telling an essential worker who is vaccinated that you need to be out for ten days when maybe it might be safer to have them come back earlier and use masks and all of the other PPE that should be used in their occupation.

Let's take a listen to something that Dr. Fauci told our colleague, John Berman, earlier.

[10:05:02]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: That's certainly an important consideration which is being discussed right now, particularly, John, in the context of health care workers. For example, if you get a healthcare worker who is infected and without any symptoms at all, you don't want to keep that person out of work too very long.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: Now, Dr. Fauci was talking about health care workers, other essential workers, well, the folks who keep the airlines going. So, the president of Delta Airlines wrote a letter to Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the head of the CDC, and this is what he asked her. He requested that isolation for fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 be shortened from ten to five days. And he said, of course, there should be a test before that person ends their isolation. He noted that over 90 percent of Delta's workforce is vaccinated.

And, Jim, you mentioned the new U.K. rules. Let's talk about that. In the U.K., they shortened their isolation from ten to seven days for vaccinated people. That's an important point. Unvaccinated people with COVID-19 still must isolate for ten days, yet another reason why people should get vaccinated. An unvaccinated essential worker is not very useful. If they get COVID, they really will need to be out for ten days. I think it's likely in the not too distant future that vaccinated people, their time in isolation will be shorter. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes. I mean, that's a consistency. If you're vaccinated, not only are you likely to stay healthier, but you might have a shorter quarantine period. Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much.

All right, so let's discuss the medicine. CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, she's an emergency physician and the former health commissioner for the city of Baltimore. Dr. Wen, good to have you back.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Great to see you.

SCIUTTO: So, we had Dr. Paul Offit on last hour, and I asked him this question so I'll ask you as well. Based on the data granting that it's relatively early here that we've seen from South Africa, from Israel, from Europe and early data in the U.S., do you greet with Dr. Offit that omicron is looking like for vaccinated people and perhaps the broader population causes less severe illness? Do you share that view?

WEN: I do. I'm optimistic that the vaccines that we have protect very well from severe illness. They are diminished in their effectiveness against symptomatic milder illness, but a booster dose on top of the initial two doses of the mRNA or one dose of the J&J will help to reduce symptomatic illness. And it's for this reason that I really agree with what President Biden and many other elected leaders are saying, which is unvaccinated people really need to get vaccinated.

Ideally, they are not mixing with other people over the holidays. But if you are vaccinated, you shouldn't have to cancel your holiday plans. Vaccinated people have been through so much, they've given up so much. There's this sense of exhaustion all around us. We can't keep going without seeing our loved ones and there is a way for us to do that while reducing our risk.

SCIUTTO: And President Biden was very clear about that. He said, if you're vaccinated, go enjoy your holidays.

I do wonder and, again, granting, it's early, that if this data bears out, right, that omicron for the vaccinated causes less severe, perhaps asymptomatic cases, by and large, does that mean that the peak of this may not be as bad as some of the worst projections in recent weeks?

WEN: Well, that's the hope. The hope is that omicron -- look, it's speaking through our population in places where it's hit. There's a very sharp rise as there was in South Africa, U.K. and other places. But the hope is that we're also going to have a sharp decline and also that there is a decoupling between infections and hospitalizations and deaths. That's what we're seeing in Israel. That's, in fact, what we've seen in South Africa. I hope that that will bear out in the U.S.

Now, this is going to be a test, because there are some communities that have very low vaccination rates. It will be important to see what happens in communities with high vaccination rates and low vaccination rates. I really hope that omicron doesn't cause the kind of damage that delta did in places with low vaccination rates.

SCIUTTO: No question. Okay. So, this then informs the next question, which is, is it right, in your view, to be shortening the quarantine time for, to be clear, vaccinated people? U.K. is going from ten to seven. Should the U.S. do the same? Should it be even shorter, in your view?

WEN: Yes. I would be interested to know whether the CDC will consider this test-to-remain or test-to-return, rather, program, just as you have test-to-stay for classrooms. In a way, what U.K. is doing is test-to-return, meaning that if you have a negative test, meaning that you no longer have virus, you're able to return back to work.

I mean, that just makes sense to me. It makes sense for maintaining our workforce. But also right now, what I'm afraid of is that we are disincentivizing people from actually seeking tests, because they're thinking I don't even want to know if I'm positive.

[10:10:01]

I mean, we're seeing the NFL, as an example, stopping testing for their asymptomatic vaccinated players. And I think that having a test- to-return policy, shortening that period will help us to actually get people to test more.

SCIUTTO: That's a good point, test-to-return, a good way of phrasing it. Dr. Leana Wen, thanks so much for joining us.

WEN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Just minutes from now President Biden set to meet with his cabinet and CEOs from several large companies on how to deal with continuing supply chain delays. We're going to bring that to you live when he speaks.

Plus, the White House remains adamant that the president and Senator Joe Manchin will, in Biden's words, get something done after Manchin torpedoed a key piece of Biden's economic agenda. Did a meeting of Senate Democrats last night bring hope for compromise? We'll see.

And jury deliberations in the trial for Ghislaine Maxwell, they are underway right now. It is the last day inside the courtroom before Christmas, possible to see a verdict before then.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Right now, jurors in the Ghislaine Maxwell sex trafficking trial are back into the deliberation room. They met for eight hours yesterday. Today is supposed to be the final day of deliberations this week before the court closes for the holidays.

CNN's Kara Scannell, she is in New York following developments there. Kara, they sent a number of questions to the judge yesterday. Oftentimes, these questions can indicate to some degree what they're focusing on. What specifically are they asking?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Yes, Jim, that's right. They sent five notes yesterday, three of them on substantive issues of evidence and of the law. The first note, they wanted to see the testimony of three of the four accusers, Annie Farmer who testified that she was molested by Maxwell in New Mexico, Jane who testified that she was sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein and Maxwell in Palm Beach and in New York, and also Carolyn who testified that she was paid hundreds of dollars in cash to give Epstein sexualized massages. She testified that Maxwell had arranged several of these phone calls to arrange the massages. So, these women all testifying that they were abused when they were 14 and 16 years old.

Now, the jury also then asked to see the FBI notes of a 2007 interview with Carolyn. And those notes were critical to the defense's cross examination of her because she had testified about all of these interactions with Maxwell in the 2007 interview. She didn't mention Maxwell by name at all. She only described there being an older woman with short black hair who had an accent. So, that's something that the defense had really capitalized on. That was something that they have asked -- the jury is asking to see, but that is not in evidence. So, the judge did not send that back. But when Carolyn was asked by prosecutors, she said that the reason she didn't mention Maxwell was because no one asked about her.

Then, also, the last note of the day, the jury had said that they wanted to know whether they could consider the testimony of Annie Farmer when they're looking at some of these conspiracy charges. The judge said that they absolutely could, so that could hit the other way for the defense.

It's very hard to interpret what the jury is thinking here. But a bunch of notes, an active jury. They've been deliberating now for about ten hours. And this deliberation could continue today obviously until they reach a verdict. The judge is giving them the option to return tomorrow if they want to. We haven't heard yet if they're going to do that. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Kara Scannell outside the courthouse there, thanks so much.

Let's speak now to Jennifer Rodgers. She's a CNN Legal Analyst, former Federal Prosecutor herself. Jennifer, good to have you here.

Listen, it's like reading tea leaves when you look at some of these questions that come in from jurors. But given your experience, do you see anything indicative from the questions they've asked so far and the issues they're focusing on?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's really only possible, Jim, to know that they are working. They're working through the charges. Whenever they're asking for evidence, it means that jurors are debating, which is what they're supposed to do. There will be some jurors who believe the victims and are leaning towards guilty, others who maybe are more skeptical. So, what they do is they say don't you remember the testimony of Carolyn, for example. Let's get that and that may convince you. So, that's the sort of thing going on.

Luckily, they haven't said they're having any problems, that they are unable to reach a verdict, anything like that. So, it seems to me they're doing their work, they're going through the charges and we'll see what happens.

SCIUTTO: Fair enough, enough said. Now, some lawyers have noted that Jeffrey Epstein's original plea agreement with federal prosecutors barred future prosecution of co-conspirators. Does that raise the possibility of any verdict reached here would be challenged on appeal? RODGERS: No, because those issues were litigated pretrial. So, when the case was first charged, there was litigation around whether the indictment was appropriate because of that agreement. So, that issue is resolved as to the trial part.

Now, she can raise any issue she wishes to on appeal if she's convicted but the trial court did a thorough investigation of that. So, I wouldn't expect that to be a problem down the road.

SCIUTTO: Okay. Other trials we're following, of course, one being the trial of former Minnesota police officer, Kim Potter, but also the Elizabeth Holmes case, but Potter first. Her defense, in effect, is, yes, I made a mistake, but I'm remorseful. I'm sorry for it. Legally -- and, by the way, juries respond to emotions too. They're human beings. But, legally where does the defense stand here?

RODGERS: Not a strong case for the defense legally. There was more than sufficient evidence to show that Potter was at least negligent, if not reckless, which means that she would technically be guilty, but they really did play the emotion card here.

[10:20:07]

And juries can always do what we call nullify, which is to say, it may be the evidence, but they want to find her not guilty because they're swayed by the emotion that she showed on the stand.

SCIUTTO: Another trial underway, well, deliberations, Elizabeth Holmes accused of fraud in the Theranos case. This was also, to some degree, a jury play too? I mean, she testified in her own defense, told a story about being sort of under the sway of her chief operating officer, she was having a personal relationship. How do you view that case?

RODGERS: It's so interesting. It's also interesting, Jim, when we have three big trials who are on verdict watch for all women defendants, which is so unusual. Yes, it's really the whole play here for both Potter and Holmes. She testified, Holmes, for a week and really did lay the blame at the feet of someone else. So, that victim card, does that work with someone who was supposed to be such a genius, the head of this company? That's kind of a contrast there.

So, Potter I think really played on the emotional heart strings. Holmes was going for something a little different. And it seems it might not be successful given the other evidence of her acumen and leadership of that company.

SCIUTTO: We'll see where the juries end up. Jennifer Rodgers, thanks very much.

RODGERS: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: In moments, we do expect President Biden to speak ahead of a key meeting to tackle the ongoing supply chain delays. We're going to be there live and that's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: CNN has learned that Senator Joe Manchin is vowing to continue discussions with his fellow Democrats after, frankly, infuriating many of them by sinking the Build Back Better act. But he says he still has issues with the plan in its current form.

President Biden believes the two can eventually reach an agreement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Maybe I'm not Irish because I don't hold a grudge. Look, I want to get things done. I still think there's a possibility of getting Build Back Better done.

REPORTER: Did Senator Manchin break his commitment to you?

BIDEN: Senator Manchin and I are going to get something done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now, Ron Brownstein, Senior Political Analyst and Senior Editor at The Atlantic. Ron, good to have you.

You've watched Washington for a few years.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Can Biden and Manchin and the Democrats get something done, realistically?

BROWNSTEIN: Look, if Manchin wants to make a deal, there's a deal to be had. And the question is whether in the end he wants to get to yes, right? Because, certainly, core to his brand from the beginning, his first race for federal office in 2010 has been the idea that he is the guy who stands up to liberal Democrats and tells them no. I mean, in his first -- remember, in his first campaign, he ran an ad with him firing a rifle literally at Obama's cap and trade bill.

So, this step was in character for him to go as loudly as he could on Fox and say that he's saying no. Now, whether he can get to yes after that substantively, there is a deal certainly to be had. There's always a deal to be had. And if he wants to remain in the Democratic Party, you certainly expect him not to sink their core economic agenda. But the critical question is does he want to reach a deal because there is a deal if he wants it.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, because Mitch McConnell was on Hugh Hewitt's show this morning talking about what I would imagine is his dream of a Joe Manchin switch to the Republican Party. Let's be frank. I mean, first of all, he hasn't said he's going to do that. Second of all, there's always the possibility he could go independent caucus with Democrats. But you had McConnell there holding the possibility, well, if we take over the majority, he could have chair of the energy committee, of course, big to a guy who comes from West Virginia. Do you see that as a realistic possibility, either changing parties or leaving the Democratic Party?

BROWNSTEIN: There is a precedent, right, in 2001 in a 50/50 Senate, Jim Jeffords of Vermont voted to cut back the size of George Bush's tax cut. The White House punished him by ostentatiously not inviting him to a ceremony for the Teacher of the Year. And he didn't switch parties. He just left the Republican Party to caucus as an independent and made the Senate 50/49 and made Democrats the majority.

But once he did that, he was the 51st vote, and Manchin would be in the same position. Right now, he is the 50th vote. He is kind of the -- all roads run through Manchin. If he makes Republicans the majority, they have 50 votes on their own. They don't need him. His power is immediately diluted as well as the fact, of course, as you know, that he voted twice to convict Donald Trump and voted against the Trump tax cuts, which he is more determined to reverse than Kyrsten Sinema is. So, it's hard for me to see his future as logically as a Republican.

SCIUTTO: That's a great point there. Okay. And, by the way, he's voted for a good 40 federal judges for Joe Biden and others, for folks who forget.

Okay. So, Manchin's deal is now climate change provisions from BBB, universal pre-K and subsidies for the Affordable Care Act, set aside child tax credits for now. Should Democrats say, heck, it's the best we can get now, let's take that, worry about child tax credits later, which is it could expire this month.

[10:30:02]

But should they take what they can get?

BROWNSTEIN: They certainly should take what they can get but they should not necessarily assume that what's on the table is all --