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Fauci: Booster About 75 Percent Effective Against Omicron; Jan. 6 Committee Seeks To Interview GOP Rep. Jim Jordan About Insurrection. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired December 22, 2021 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: This is validated by the clinical data, which shows that the vaccine efficacy, as we all know from previous studies of a symptomatic infection of a two-dose mRNA wanes over time.

[15:30:14]

However, there's a moderate to high effectiveness, about 75 percent seen in the early period after a booster dose and very likely higher when it comes to hospitalization and severe disease.

Next slide. A quick word now on something that Jeff mentioned is namely the treatments that are available. Unfortunately, but understandably, with the degree of mutations that we have with omicron, some of the monoclonal antibodies shown on the slide here very likely will not work against omicron, and those are shown in the first two under monoclonal antibody.

Fortunately, the GSK, their product, Sotrovimab, looks like it is well-positioned to be used as a treatment against omicron, and then the AZ product also is likely. Small molecule antivirals are available now.

You heard the recent approval of an EUA of Paxlovid. Of note, and under appreciated, remdesivir is already fully approved and is available in a three-day course, which in a recent study shown to dramatically diminish the need for hospitalization.

Guidelines on this will be now re-examined by the NIH guidelines committee and you'll be hearing more about recommendations, how to utilize these.

If I can have the last slide. I want to, again, just reiterate what Dr. Walensky said about prevention, which is a multilayered comprehensive process, the hallmark of which is vaccination. Now, one of the questions that Dr. Walensky and I and Dr. Dr. Murthy and others get asked frequently, is that right now as we get to the Christmas holiday, and new year's, would it be safe for individuals who are vaccinated, who are boosted, to get together with family in the setting of the home.

The answer to that is yes. An extra level of protection would be the testing that Dr. Walensky measured, but I want to make sure this is not confused with going to a large gathering. And there are many of these, parties that have 30, 40, 50 people, in which you do not know the vaccination status of individuals.

Those are the kind of functions in the context of COVID and particularly in the context of omicron, that you do not want to go to. So to the extent possible, we urge you to stay away from those situations that could put you at a higher risk.

I'll stop there and back to you, Jeff.

JEFF ZIENTS, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS COORDINATOR: Well, thanks, Doctors.

With that, let's open it up for some questions -- Kevin.

MODERATOR: Thanks, Jeff. Let's try to get through as many questions as we possibly can. First let's go to Peter Sullivan at "The Hill".

PETER SULLIVAN, THE HILL: Hi, thanks. I wanted to ask on the supplies of the new Pfizer treatment pill. There have been some experts calling for the administration to just do more to increase supply. For example, enlisting other manufacturers the way Merck is helping to make the J&J vaccine, so you're not just relying on Pfizer's capacity alone.

Have you considered that at all or is there more steps, you know, the administration can take to boost the supply?

ZIENTS: Yeah, and I might also have Dr. Fauci talk some about the synthesis process, which takes months to do. We know the Pfizer team is hard at work ramping up production, and everyone agrees this is a very promising antiviral and therefore we want to make sure that production is ramped up as quickly as possible.

According to the company, the complex chemistry involved in creating the active ingredient in the pill means the production takes, as I mentioned, about six to eight months. Now that the pill is authorized, we will have discussions to explore how we can help them improve their manufacturing capacity even further by providing any resources that they need. As quickly as Pfizer gets the pills manufactured and delivered, we will be immediately providing them to states and jurisdictions for distribution.

So, the bottom line today is an exciting development, and we applaud the American company for their innovation. We do have 10 million doses ordered, which is the largest amount of any country in the world, and 265,000 treatment regimens will be available to us in January.

[15:35:06]

Anything you want to add there, Dr. Fauci?

FAUCI: Well, Jeff, just what you said. I mean, the very good news is that we have a product now that has about a 90 percent efficacy in preventing hospitalization, but the sobering news is unfortunately it is really a quite complicated and complex synthetic process, which we will be working with the company to figure out how we can help alleviate the stress of the long duration that it takes to make it, and hopefully we'll be able to shorten that process by working closely with them.

ZIENTS: Next question?

MODERATOR: Cameron Keith at NPR.

CAMERON KEITH, NPR: Thank you so much for taking my question.

I'm wondering, the WHO is telling people to curtail their holiday plans. Why isn't the U.S. government doing that also? And also, where is the CDC on modifying the definition of fully vaccinated to include boosters?

ZIENTS: Dr. Walensky on holiday and modifying the definition.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: Yeah, I think that you just heard from Dr. Fauci as to we are recommending people modify their plans. We are not advocating for large events, and I think this is a modification. We also have given clear guidance as to what we believe is a safe way to gather.

We do want families to be together, to be able to be together this holiday season. And so to do so, we're really encouraging people to be vaccinated, to be boosted and to practice all of those prevention strategies before they gather so they can maximize the safety of their holiday gathering as well as that reassurance of a test. With regard to your second question, our guidance right now is very clear.

CDC recommends, strongly recommends people who are eligible for a booster go get a booster. That is everyone above the ages of 16 boosting at greater than six months, if you receive the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, and, of course, greater than two months if you receive the J&J vaccine.

We're looking at the definition right now, and, you know, more to come there, but just to be very clear, our recommendations are to get boosted.

ZIENTS: Next question, please.

MODERATOR: Let's go to Jeff Zeleny at CNN.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Thank you for taking my question. I was wondering if Jeff or the doctors could point to one thing in the last month that you could have done differently to avoid where the nation is right now on the cusp of Christmas?

ZIENTS: Dr. Fauci, anything to add there?

FAUCI: Well, I don't think I can pick out one thing that we could have done. Anytime that you put the effort that we're putting in, we always are the strongest self-critics of could we have done something better, could we have done something more quickly or more thoroughly.

And, you know, when you say I can't think of anything, I don't want anyone to think that we think we've done everything perfectly, but I don't think I could point one thing out in the last month. I think we have been intensively involved in getting the response to the omicron variant. We jumped all over it, all of us spent the entire Thanksgiving weekend getting enough information to be able to respond in an appropriate way to omicron.

So, again, admittedly, we can always do better but I can't think of something specifically that we would have done differently.

ZIENTS: Next question.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: Okay. That was a great question just asked there by our very own Jeff Zeleny: could anything differently have been done by the administration in the last month considering where we are with omicron right now. We'll get to that and more with our doctors.

Let's bring back in Dr. Leana Wen and Dr. Jorge Rodriguez.

We heard Jeff the policy coordinator, they will have milder systems. It's the unvaccinated that remain at great, great risk of hospitalization and death. They did see overall, we will see a significant rise in cases because of in variant. I should also note that Dr. Fauci said that the severity of omicron seems to be a bit less than that of delta. However, it is so contagious that some places are now seeing 80 to 90 percent of their COVID cases being this variant.

Dr. Wen, what struck you the most from the updates that we just got.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Yeah, all along, we've been saying with omicron or with any new variants that we're looking for three things, one, is it more contagious? Clearly, it's extremely contagious.

[15:40:01]

Two, is it more virulent?

And here, we have a very good news that it looks like, Omicron, especially for people who are vaccinated and boosted, is not causing severe disease. Chances are you're going to be just fine with mild or no symptoms, if you get omicron. That's the good news.

The bad news is there immune escapes, do the treatments, do the vaccines that we have still work against it. Good that they work, but if you are vaccinated, if you are boosted, then I think this is the call for all of us to be -- to get those boosters, get those vaccines if you have not already.

I want to say that testing remains a major issue, and people coming into the holidays, what they should do if they have limited tests. We should not be in the position of having to ration tests, but if you have to ration tests, the people who should get tested with the highest exposures. So, don't test the grand mom who has been living a very careful life. Test a college student that maybe has gone to bars recently before getting together. HARLOW: I think it's important, Dr. Rodriguez, the guidance that Dr.

Fauci just gave again, which is if you are fully vaccinated, boosted, you can get together with your family over the holidays. Better if you test first but he said don't confuse that with going to a party with 30, 40-plus people and you don't know all of their vaccination status. That is not recommended or advisable at all at this point.

DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Correct. And I think we need to very clear, and he said like people, people that are like you in the fact that they have been vaccinated, family that have been trying to be cautious, it is safe or, you know, as safe as possible to meet in small groups. I think a few things that struck me is that, and I agree with the fact that we now need to say completely vaccinated means getting all three shots. That's what saves lives.

Another thing that I think is really important, if you indulge me is the fact that even though omicron is not as deadly, it appears to be. They also said because of its contagious factor, it can easily overwhelm our health care system. So, let's say that 5 percent of delta, 100 people went to the hospital, but if omicron infects a thousand people and 1 percent get infected, ten will go to the hospital. It can still very easily just overwhelm our health care system.

HARLOW: And, Dr. Wen, I thought some good news finally for the administration talking about Pfizer's pill to treat COVID that just got emergency authorization today, Paxlovid. We heard Jeff Zients say the federal government will provide any resources needed to ramp up production. That's a pretty good indicator now.

WEN: Absolutely, and for the individual who is high risk, this is really good news because there are so many people who are very worried about what happens if they're already medically frail, and contract COVID. Well, this pill can reduce their likelihood of hospitalization or death by almost 90 percent.

I think this is also good news for our hospital system because we also want to prevent our health care system from getting overwhelmed. If you can reduce the number of people who require hospitalization, if all they need is a pill, that would be great.

But, of course, there are many logistical challenges here. There needs to be enough testing because this is early treatment that depends on people getting diagnosed early, and also worry about equity. There are a lot of people who are well-resourced who may even hoard this pill in case they get COVID, and that might leave those who already lack access to health care, that may leave them behind.

HARLOW: That's such an important point. I hope that's the focus as they roll this out.

Thank you, Dr. Wen. Thank you, Dr. Rodriguez.

We are following significant breaking news just in, the January 6th committee is looking to interview Republican Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio about the violent Capitol insurrection. Paula Reid joins us, this is now a second sitting member of Congress

who at this point, this is a request to voluntarily come talk to us. Do we know what the committee wants to ask Congressman Jordan?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Exactly, this is not a subpoena. This is just a letter to a colleague asking them to voluntarily come in, and cooperate with the ongoing investigation into January 6th and in this letter, Poppy, they lay out some of the things they would like to discuss with Representative Jordan, including the fact that he was in touch with former President Trump on January 6th.

It's important to note the committee is not just looking at January 6th, though, they are looking to the days and weeks leading up to the Capitol insurrection, and they say that Jordan was involved in efforts to challenge the results of the 2020 election. Now, we know that on January 5th, he forwarded a text message to then White House chief of staff Mark Meadows that laid out a legal theory about how then Vice President Mike Pence could block the certification of election results.

But this is a significant move by the committee, Poppy. This is something that could really ratchet up partisan tensions surrounding this investigation. Representative Jordan has previously said that if this investigation were to target GOP lawmakers that they could potentially face political retribution if Republicans take back the House in the midterms.

[15:45:11]

Now, as you noted, Jordan is the second Republican lawmaker and Trump ally to receive a letter or a request like this this week. The first one went to Representative Scott Perry. He has declined this request from his colleagues, and it's not clear if the committee will now move to subpoena him. They haven't gone that far. They have said they will use other tools at their disposal to get the information they want.

As for Jordan, also unclear, it seems unlikely that he will cooperate with the request. As the committee notes in his letter, he has previously said quote he has nothing to hide -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Right. We will see if he complies, if he doesn't, will there be a subpoena? Where does it go?

Paula, thank you for that important reporting.

Let me bring in former U.S. Attorney Harry Litman.

Harry, good to have you here.

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: We don't know what Jim Jordan is going to do. So, I don't want to jump to conclusions.

What are his options? I mean, what is the power of the committee to compel him. LITMAN: Look, the committee has the ultimate power to compel him, but

there are six GOP members. The committee knows who they are. They know the committee knows who they are, and they're now applying pressure selectively. They started with Perry, and then -- and now, Jordan, trying to make one of them break rank.

HARLOW: Uh-oh.

LITMAN: If they do that, then they will be able to get leverage on the others, get information about the others. If they don't, I think they've telegraphed pretty clearly that they will, in fact, issue subpoenas and Jordan has said, and sure it's true, that's the ultimate third rail, and if the Republicans take power in 2022, there will be criminal investigations for jaywalking and the like..

But the committee is not cowed here and they are ready to do it methodically. These are members. They're colleagues. So first they're going to try to cooperate with each of them, but there's pressure now on all of them to be the one that maybe comes forward first and cooperates, and avoids being cross wise with the committee.

HARLOW: One question, though, I was reading some expert analysis of this over the last few days, and there is protection members of Congress have in the speech and debate clause if it was anything done in the -- in their legislative work, right, so this committee needs to make clear this is outside of your legislative work, and therefore this protection that you have is, you know, is not applicable here.

LITMAN: Great point, and it is, and the committee will.

Basically, speech and debate means when they talk to the floor and say things, whatever it may be, they're immune. Of course, they're immune from punishment. They still might be called to give the information, which is what we're talking about.

But in any event, the committee will steer very clear of that, give it a very wide berth, and likewise anything privileged, they can raise any claims they want. They want the heartland of what they have already telegraphed, right, with Jim Jordan, all the communications with Trump on the 6th, with Scott Perry. He's the one who introduced him to John Eastman, the discredited professor who gave the wild-eyed theory. That's the stuff they want, and there's no plausible claim of privilege or other protection to it.

HARLOW: So this is another really interesting development that just happened while we were on the air and that is that Michael Flynn has lost his legal challenge to the committee. So the committee has wanted, wants Michael Flynn's phone records. This is his 8th legal challenge against the committee to try to block their ability to get those records.

He filed it yesterday. A judge just said today, so 24 hours later, no.

LITMAN: Right.

HARLOW: But what I think is interesting, and this is important, Harry, it's not a no and a dismissal on substantive grounds. It's a dismissal on procedural grounds. So I don't know if it's a 12(b)6 motion to dismiss or what it is, but the point is he could come back.

LITMAN: Yeah.

HARLOW: He could come back, right? He didn't say there's no merit here. It's a procedural dismissal.

LITMAN: All the court said is there's plenty of time. You don't get to come in, and you didn't do it right anyway, and make us stop the music now. So it pushes him back to negotiate.

But, Poppy, there's a broader thing going on that I think is very interesting. There's a cavalcade of these lawsuits, as you say, nine of them now, and if you're someone who might plead the Fifth there's resisting, you would normally go into a defensive crouch and make the committee come to you.

Flynn and others have done this, and each of their suits has a very broad section, even the leading argument about not their subpoenas but the ones to Verizon, third party providers, something about that really spooks them, and that's what they're trying to go after in court.

[15:50:10]

And that to me is the -- is what makes the most sense about these suits that otherwise they'd be leading with their chins. Back to Flynn, yes, it's just temporary, they don't stop the music. But there's no reason to think that he'll fare better down the line.

His arguments are, no legislative purpose, First Amendment, the kind of things that are both tired and discredited in this probe.

HARLOW: Harry Litman, good to have your brain on all of this. Thank you for helping us understand the breaking news.

LITMAN: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: We appreciate it.

Well, this: Help. An Ohio hospital issues a desperate plea. Look at that one word in this advertisement they took out in the newspaper. Help, because their medical systems face an onslaught of COVID-19 cases. What they're asking for specifically, next.

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HARLOW: Welcome back.

As you well know, and you're probably seeing in your neighborhoods across the country, the demand for COVID-19 testing is incredibly high. In Cleveland, Ohio, state health officials have been forced to turn some people way. This testing site opened Tuesday and was quickly overwhelmed. Several

Cleveland area medical systems took out a full page ad, look at that, in the city's largest newspaper, that simply stated a single word in bold capital letters: "Help."

The bottom of the ad reads in part: We need your help. We now have more COVID-19 patients in our hospitals than ever before and the overwhelming majority are unvaccinated. This is preventable.

The ad's sponsors include the Cleveland clinic and U.S. Department of Veterans affairs. Dr. Robert Wyllie is the chief of medical operations at the Cleveland Clinic and joins me now.

Thank you very much for taking the time.

And let's begin with this. What pushed you to send this ad, who do you hope this speaks to most?

DR. ROBERT WYLLIE, CHIEF OF MEDICAL OPERATIONS AT CLEVELAND CLINIC: Well, Poppy, thanks for having me on today. What we are trying to do is make sure the public understands in general how stressed the hospital systems are and how many patients we have. As you mentioned, we have more patients in our hospitals now than at any time during the pandemic.

So we're trying to reach those people who are unvaccinated. There's lots of opportunity in Ohio. In general, the population is about 55 percent vaccinated. But 80 percent of our hospitalizations involve people who run vaccinated and 90 percent of the people who are in our intensive care units are unvaccinated.

HARLOW: What have you heard? I mean, what has the feedback been since you -- since you placed this advertisement? Because, you know, there are still -- I was just looking at the latest numbers a few moments ago, I think it's over 20 percent of people in this country that can be vaccinated, are unvaccinated.

WYLLIE: We're still trying to encourage people. This is another venue to do that. We've tried many different things including the newspaper. We have -- on social media, we're on YouTube, Instagram, et cetera, trying to urge people to get vaccinated.

But it's a persistent push over time. It's not one particular thing that will get everybody vaccinated. So we're using multiple channels, trying to encourage people to get vaccinated and stressing that the hospitals are under stress. When they're under stress for COVID, that means we're also under stress in terms of taking care of other things. And we not only have a lot of COVID patients in the hospital. We have a lot of patients with severe illness.

So, cancer, strokes, cardiac disease, et cetera, who have might have deferred their care during the early pandemic and now are coming in later with more severe disease and require longer and more intense hospitalizations.

HARLOW: Is the Cleveland Clinic asking the administration to do what we've just seen the UK do, which is lessen the number of days someone with COVID has to be in isolation if they're fully vaccinated and if they test negative to get out of it?

We saw yesterday the CEO of Delta Air Lines ask the CDC to do that.

WYLLIE: I think it would be very helpful, for vaccinated people and for health care workers. We have over a thousand health care workers in the Cleveland health care system in Cleveland, Ohio, who are currently out because of delta, either they've come in contact with delta or have active infection. If you're fully vaccinated, your recovery is much quicker.

So, we're looking to see if the CDC can make the determination to shorten that quarantine down to seven days like the U.K. did or even shorter.

HARLOW: Finally, your reaction to the FDA giving emergency use authorization to the first ever pill to treat COVID, highly effective, Paxlovid.

WYLLIE: I think we're delighted that we've got something else, another medication, something else to treat people with, and particularly on outpatient basis. It is going to depend on adequate testing, because you're going to have to get tested first.

And, even though we heard the supplies are going to be fairly robust, with the number of cases per day being 150,000 in the United States, we're going to have to tier people in terms of who is most at risk and who is going to be eligible for that pill.

HARLOW: Well, thank you very much to you, obviously, Dr. Wyllie, and to all of your teams on the front lines, fighting this fight still, still. They deserve the help of all of us to get fully vaccinated.

So, thank you to them.

WYLLIE: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Of course.

Thank you all for joining me. I'll see you back here tomorrow.

"THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts now.